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Posted: 12/15/2005 9:40:08 AM EDT
I just got this email a few minutes ago. Folks, we have a fight on our hands. First the gun grabbers want to close the so called gun show loop hole and now you have government asshats trying to screw us with this crap. It's time to take the gloves off!

RedDawg6
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DNR not allowing Firearms on DNR land 6.1 million Acres unless posted open.



It will be illegal to cross or walk on a trail on WA DNR land with a loaded firearm if the DNR goes ahead with this!



The StumpJumpers M/C Club works with the DNR on many issues. But this one about Firearms is one that we would like some assistance with.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stumpjumpers@comcast.net [mailto:stumpjumpers@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:57 AM

The DNR's new proposed WAC revision (11/28/05) basically creates a new "Closed unless posted open" policy for OHV and Recreational Shooting/Hunting on DNR (OUR Public Land!) It will be illegal to cross or walk on a trail on WA DNR land with a loaded firearm if the DNR goes ahead with this!



NO! I don't understand why Doug Sutherland, OUR elected Public Lands Commissioner is letting his staff propose turning public land into a new King's Forest!



You can now read the entire text of the DNR's 11/28/05 draft WAC for yourself. Take your blood pressure pills FIRST!



The link to that draft is http://www.nmaoffroad.org/news/051128_DNR_WAC_Draft.pdf Thanks to the NMA for putting this online!



The link to the existing DNR WAC is http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=332-52



Please send your OHV comments to the NMA via nma@nmaoffroad.org



Also feel free to send your personal comments regarding the DNR's attempt to turn PUBLIC Land into a new KING's FOREST directly to Doug Sutherland (the DNR's ONLY elected official) via email using cpl@wadnr.gov Too much of OUR DNR land is already locked up to keep it from use by the public, instead of for use by the public!



Be sure to blind copy nma@nmaoffroad.org with all emails concerning OHV use so the NMA representative on the WAC committee will have a copy of your comments for use in the upcoming meetings.



Comments/suggestions for dealing with these proposed regulations on Recreational Shooting or hunting on DNR land should be blind copied to me dhiatt@hpgmc.com if sent directly to Doug Sutherland.



I need your input on the proposed WAC revisions regarding firearm use on DNR's 6.1 million acres of land and water as I am the Recreational Shooting representative on the DNR's WAC Revision Committee. Send them to me via dhiatt@hgpmc.com





The Legislature has not directed the DNR to rewrite any WACs by changing any RCWs. The DNR has just taken it upon themselves to rewrite the laws regarding DNR land!



Speak up now or be banned from the new King's Forest!



Dave Hiatt

Recreational Shooting Representative

DNR WAC Revision Committee

dhiatt@hpgmc.com
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:43:50 AM EDT
GD fucktards.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:45:37 AM EDT
Good, I welcome it.


Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. -- Patrick Henry, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788)
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:51:18 AM EDT
ummm...

It wont stop me.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:58:02 AM EDT
Pinko Commie Libtard Asshats!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:04:09 AM EDT
I can see a lot of guys marking their line in the sand on this. What will you personally do when some LEO trys to disarm you out in the woods when all you are doing is plinking with your friends and family. Not only with this LEO try to disarm you but he will also try to confiscate your firearm.
Are you going to let that happen? How much more incremental tyranny are you going to personally allow before you reach that boiling point? I'm sure there are some ostrich's on this board who will say I'm one of those wacked out MILITIA guys but you know what. I really don't give a shit! What about the LEO's on this forum. Are you going to enforce this unconstitutional legislation if if does in fact become law? If you are a gun owner and you love freedom how would you feel about enforcing a law that you know in your heart to be wrong? If this isn't a line in the sand I don't know what is!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:12:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
I can see a lot of guys marking their line in the sand on this. What will you personally do when some LEO trys to disarm you out in the woods when all you are doing is plinking with your friends and family. Not only with this LEO try to disarm you but he will also try to confiscate your firearm.
Are you going to let that happen? How much more incremental tyranny are you going to personally allow before you reach that boiling point? I'm sure there are some ostrich's on this board who will say I'm one of those wacked out MILITIA guys but you know what. I really don't give a shit! What about the LEO's on this forum. Are you going to enforce this unconstitutional legislation if if does in fact become law? If you are a gun owner and you love freedom how would you feel about enforcing a law that you know in your heart to be wrong? If this isn't a line in the sand I don't know what is!



Why dont you tell us what you will do first.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:13:03 AM EDT






No king but the King of kings Christ jesus
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:17:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:

Why dont you tell us what you will do first.



Let's just say they won't get my gun and I won't accept a fine from them. It's my line in the sand!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:20:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By R-32:

Why dont you tell us what you will do first.



Let's just say they won't get my gun and I won't accept a fine from them. It's my line in the sand!



So you are not going to walk on a trail, or across a road on DNR land with a loaded firearm?...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:36:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
So you are not going to walk on a trail, or across a road on DNR land with a loaded firearm?...



I didn't say that!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:38:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By R-32:
So you are not going to walk on a trail, or across a road on DNR land with a loaded firearm?...



I didn't say that!



Then you may be breaking the law, and putting your firearm at risk of confiscation, and yourself at risk of a ticket...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:53:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By R-32:
So you are not going to walk on a trail, or across a road on DNR land with a loaded firearm?...



I didn't say that!



Then you may be breaking the law, and putting your firearm at risk of confiscation, and yourself at risk of a ticket...



Well.....Gee....isn't that what the line in the sand is all about? To comply with that so called law
(if implemented) would make me a slave wouldn't it? Sure there's risk there in that line in the sand but there's also risk for the asshat who tries to enforce that shit!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:03:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
Then you may be breaking the law, and putting your firearm at risk of confiscation, and yourself at risk of a ticket...



Ever hear of bad law R-32 ? like the women in Texas that lost her parents and 22 people because she obeyed a bad law did not take her sidearm into the restuarant.

The law is a way to disarm and make defenceless the people, something I will not tolerate.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:09:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:29:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:43:07 AM EDT by R-32]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By R-32:
Then you may be breaking the law, and putting your firearm at risk of confiscation, and yourself at risk of a ticket...



Ever hear of bad law R-32 ? like the women in Texas that lost her parents and 22 people because she obeyed a bad law did not take her sidearm into the restuarant.

The law is a way to disarm and make defenceless the people, something I will not tolerate.




STRAT You have been with me twice when we have been on DNR land and had someone come up to us (and we are still alive)...One was a Game agent (State Patrol) the other was a female named Lori, she is a DNR supervisor in this area. DNR employees are not LEO's, and Lori called my work the next day to verify that I had access behind those gates. One of the things she said was that she is scared of firearms. That is enough for me, to make sure Im packing in the open each and everytime Im in that area now. I have no doubt that this being done by the members of FOTT that also work for DNR. ( There is a list of them, I will try and dig it up).

Yup It would be a bad law, but it is not a law yet, So why try and pretend anyone is Billy the Badass and tell tall-tales of what they say they will do after the fact, and maybe start talking about what you are willing to do before it becomes a law.

BTW: I dont think this will go very far, the main push will be from FOTT, and the REI Backpacking crowd, who have high numbers, but dont really hang out where most people hunt or shoot. Of thos backpackers, it will only hurt those that pack. that is not a good thing, but I also have packed for years where I was not supposed to pack by simply putting my firearm in my pack or making sure it is good and hidden.

I also in a dark way hope they do pass it, Just more ammo to use against the county to do what it is supposed to do by providing training ranges for the public.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:41:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:08:25 PM EDT
I am currently at work thus I don't have the ability to construct a letter to Mr. Sutherland. However, I did pass this information on via e-mail to several people whom I think will have something to say about this. Like that old shampoo commercial: "If they tell two friends, and they tell two friends, and so on, and so on..."

Trey
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:30:02 PM EDT
Fuck 'em.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:31:03 PM EDT
So, what youre saying is that you decided to look the other way the entire time they nickle and dimed you to this point? Thats how Im reading it. Now that you're here (shouldnt be a surprise) its upsetting. What's wrong w/ this picture? Why weren't gunowners in this state all over these issues many years ago? I figure it won't be all that much longer before WA adopts many of the looney CA style gun laws. Who's to blame? I would say the gunowner's own as much of this problem as the liberals.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:44:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OdT:

Originally Posted By R-32:
Yup It would be a bad law, but it is not a law yet, So why try and pretend anyone is Billy the Badass and tell tall-tales of what they say they will do after the fact, and maybe start talking about what you are willing to do before it becomes a law.

I also in a dark way hope they do pass it...



+ an even dozen. Well said.



Power concedes nothing without demand and the force to back up the demand.

Thats what founded this nation, a declaration followed by action if the demands are not met.

The Founders printed bills and posted them publically, they shouted out their contviction at public meetings, things like give me liberty or give me death death to tyrants and so on and so forth, you seen me post them a thosand times no need to repeat now.

You will never win with only a defence, you must go on the offensive when the time is right.

You will not vote your freedom back, it has to be won !

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:51:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:05:53 PM EDT
Yes, I agree that there's lots of water over the dam. This isn't what Im talking about. Im talking about what we own...when we showed up on the scene. We are responsible from that point. It's pointless and ineffective to complain on a net board and call it good. It's also ineffective to do nothing until 'it's time to shoot the b****ds'. The attitude that voting/'activism' isn't effective is wrong. How do you think the libs rammed their adgenda through? They got off their duff and got busy. It works the same way for us. Will we sustain defeats. Yes, of course we will and there will be successes too. Doing nothing gives certain complete defeat.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:22:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:40:20 PM EDT
Where do we go from here?

How about Olympia or where ever it is they decide to talk about this in public hearings. Im a WAC member so Im sure theyre (or should be) all over this. Im going to check in w/ them and find out what theyre planning and how I can help.

As for the head butting thing I would call it more of a reality check.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:44:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:48:51 PM EDT
This places the SCR in danger...of finding a new "home."


Stupid little emoticons cannot begin to express the amount of anger I feel. Once I calm down, I'll be sure to write several e-mails, AND snail mail several letters.

As much as I hate to say it, this IS one step closer to voting from the rooftops.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:57:46 PM EDT
I tried for an hour to get to a "live" person at the DNR to talk to them about this.
I got forwarded to a lot of voice mails and a lot of "Really? I didn't know that" type answers.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:37:09 PM EDT

It will be illegal to cross or walk on a trail on WA DNR land with a loaded firearm


That is utter utter bullshit! I hike/bike/mountain climb on DNR land often, I don't target practice there, but I always always carry a firearm. It's the wilderness for fuck's sake! Everything out there is out to get me, from a bear or a cougar, to a hick with an over/under who may take a liking to my nice shiny LC2 ALICE ruck. I can't imagine hiking in the Cascades unarmed. No way.

This law would rob me of my most cherished weekend activities.

Count me in. I'm taking a day off and driving down to Olympia if/when this appears before the legislature.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:42:14 PM EDT
Man I just got of of a waterfowl board that I belong to. And there are a couple IDIOTS on there that think this is a good thing. Can you believe that. Stupid duck hunter can't figure out that once it's closed to target shooters. Hunters will be thrown in with everyone else and they won't be able to play either. F-----g Fool's!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:04:34 PM EDT
feeling a little peculiar after reading that
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:18:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cboyer:
Man I just got of of a waterfowl board that I belong to. And there are a couple IDIOTS on there that think this is a good thing. Can you believe that. Stupid duck hunter can't figure out that once it's closed to target shooters. Hunters will be thrown in with everyone else and they won't be able to play either. F-----g Fool's!



Did they explain *why* they took that position? I would be interested to know but I don't get it either. Is it a matter of ignorance/not thinking ahead or the attitude that the govt knows best?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:28:20 PM EDT
I see nothing in there that makes an exception for hunting. I do see language that says hunting and fishing is regulated by the DFW. I do see language that addresses the possession of loaded firearms and discharge of same as being prohibited. I'm not a lawyer but I can see this being very easy to interpreted as a prohibition against hunting unless "authorized".

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:20:11 PM EDT
Fucking friends of the trail are at it again!!!!
According to there website at least one member Doug McClelland works for the DNR and there site lists DNR as a source of funding? WTF

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:08:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BIGDUKESIX:
Fucking friends of the trail are at it again!!!!
According to there website at least one member Doug McClelland works for the DNR and there site lists DNR as a source of funding? WTF




Dont forget that the Snoqualmie (sp) Range is a proud supporter! Some upper level female from DNR is also with FOTT...( I cant find my old list)
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:20:25 AM EDT
Sounds like a good time to demand that land be set aside for recreational shooting.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:57:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 10:58:33 AM EDT by R-32]

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Sounds like a good time to demand that land be set aside for recreational shooting.



Carefull, it could be one chunk and it would end up being over in NorthEastern Washington...

Better to demand that this bullshit never makes it to law.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:15:00 AM EDT
And here we get one group that thinks they have a right to use the land bashing another group. Untied we stand!

Spur Road Follies
by Kevin Geraghty



One thing that is startling to the Middle Fork newcomer is the amount of shooting that goes on there. At many spots on the spur roads (old log landings and road ends are favored) the ground is littered with brass rifle cartridges, shotgun shell casings, and little plastic bullet trays. The common use of alcohol containers as targets suggests that a lot of the shooters are SUI. And why not? As every cowboy movie makes clear, mixing guns and alcohol is an old western tradition.



On a nice weekend day in the Middle Fork one is likely to hear persistent gunfire. It can be obtrusive. Imagine reaching the summit of Garfield mountain, nine hours after you left the Middle Fork road. It's a remote spot. The summit might be visited once or twice a year, or not at all. Despite its inaccessibility, the summit is a good place to hear gunfire: Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang. Pause to load another clip. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang. Pause to load another clip. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang. The sound carries with wonderful clarity through the four thousand vertical feet from the valley floor. Calling in an air strike would be just the thing, you feel.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:33:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Sounds like a good time to demand that land be set aside for recreational shooting.



I agree that it would be nice to have an area set aside for recreational shooting but not if it precludes us from lawfully being able to carry a firearm on DNR or public land.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:41:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 11:41:42 AM EDT by mordecai]

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Sounds like a good time to demand that land be set aside for recreational shooting.



I agree that it would be nice to have an area set aside for recreational shooting but not if it precludes us from lawfully being able to carry a firearm on DNR or public land.



I just want to set out a clarification. My reading of the proposal says "loaded firearms on DNR trails". Now, I have no idea what constitutes a trail, but it does not sound like they are saying ALL DNR LAND. This is strictly a clarification comment - I, under no circumstances, promote or condone the negotiation of the camel's nose or the oil covered slope.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:30:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:33:33 AM EDT by arfarf]
6.1 million acres? What are they gonna station goons behind every bush or just cameras at the entrances/parking areas?

Screw them, I bet their too lazy to get out and hike up into the enchanted forest.


It will make training more realistic.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 2:52:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 2:57:37 PM EDT by 161Infantry]
I have always walked DNR land Armed and always will. I go where I want, armed with what I want, those attempting to disarm me, do so at their own peril.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:14:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
I have always walked DNR land Armed and always will. I go where I want, armed with what I want, those attempting to disarm me, do so at their own peril.



+1 My sentiments exactly!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:37:12 PM EDT

* "[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

* "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."
--John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:09:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 7:18:03 AM EDT by Clawista92]

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By R-32:
So you are not going to walk on a trail, or across a road on DNR land with a loaded firearm?...



I didn't say that!hr


Then you may be breaking the law, and putting your firearm at risk of confiscation, and yourself at risk of a ticket...



Well.....Gee....isn't that what the line in the sand is all about? To comply with that so called law
(if implemented) would make me a slave wouldn't it? Sure there's risk there in that line in the sand but there's also risk for the asshat who tries to enforce that shit!



No it is not. The line in the sand has got be drawn -before- this becomes law wich is why the originator of this thread posted all those political contacts up there who can prevent this from ever happening. But, rather then a lot of people posting "my emails sent" we're posturing about how tough we are and how we'll stand up to tyranny with force.

Well, bad news, it's not law yet. The good news is that if some of you alt tab over to your email window and send an email to DNR it may never BE law. Hope some of you will join me and switch to the email window now. Boyd Kneeland, NRA wa-08 election volunteer coordinator.

PS Tactically, I would think it's worth noting that the "asshats" have better ammo funds then you and probably read this forum. But, that's just a guess ; )
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:06:27 AM EDT
I agree with Clawista We need to get politcal about this just like We did last January with the proposed
WA state AWB. I am going to sit down and fire off a email to the DNR and My State REPS. I think We
need to treat this with the same urgency.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:26:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
What about the LEO's on this forum. Are you going to enforce this unconstitutional legislation if if does in fact become law? If you are a gun owner and you love freedom how would you feel about enforcing a law that you know in your heart to be wrong?




I would humbly suggest that I have done a hell of a lot more than than pound away venting on a keyboard.


I swore an oath before God, in uniform or out, I take it very serious,
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:16:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
What about the LEO's on this forum. Are you going to enforce this unconstitutional legislation if if does in fact become law? If you are a gun owner and you love freedom how would you feel about enforcing a law that you know in your heart to be wrong?




I would humbly suggest that I have done a hell of a lot more than than pound away venting on a keyboard.


I swore an oath before God, in uniform or out, I take it very serious,



+1 That's what I want to hear. If this crap becomes the law of the land then we will have a crisis. I just hope it doesn't come to that.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:42:25 PM EDT
One question...I asked about WACs in regard to universities/colleges/trade schools on this forum and the consensus was that they applied only to students. In other words the WACs don't have the weight of law behind them. and apply uniformly to the entire population. How does this relate to DNR land then if the proposal changes a WAC vs a law?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:52:32 PM EDT
I live near quite alot of DNR land in Kitsap County and I walk my dogs there quite frequently. On more than one occasion I have run across less than desirable individuals. Look like meth heads and general low lifes up to no good. Everytime I was happy to have been armed. AR-15 on my shoulder and a 1911 on my hip. Was it not in oregon that 2 people who were camping were murdered. I mean what is the DNR thinking? all they are doing is enabling those who prey on the weak or unarmed. If this is passed it wont stop me.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:06:40 PM EDT
Article 1, Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution:

SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this Section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.


I don't see how not allowing a person to have the ability to protect themselves in the wilderness is in compliance with the Constitution. "Individual's right of self defense shall not be impared."

This is the number for Doug Sutherland's office. I urge you to call and find out why anyone would support this.
360-902-1004
I just got off the phone with Pricess Johnosn-Mith of the recreational end of DNR (360-902-1066). She said that the PDF that is going around is false and that no draft has been proposed.
I would appreciate any more information anyone can post about this. I know that if push comes to shove, the liberal-LL Bean, yuppies in this state will roll right over our rights.
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