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Posted: 12/28/2005 12:21:53 AM EDT
Can you legally keep a loaded rifle in a vehicle? Obviously it would be behind the seats (truck) so would it be considered "concealed"? If not, whats the legality of keeping loaded mags with the rifle, but not inserted? Please keep in mind that I don't have a CCW and I'm not 21 (only 19). Thanks,

CMS
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:11:37 AM EDT
In Pa. you are supposed to have the ammunition and weapon as far apart as possible. When I head to the range I usually have the rifles up front and open and the ammo in the trunk or vice versa. I'm not a cop, but knowing a few from my line of work I think if you got stopped that would be very bad for you.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:14:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:32:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 7:32:53 AM EDT by AKsRule]
Basically , a rifle or other long gun must be unloaded and in a container ( soft case should do)
and any ammo must be in a separate container (ammo can or plastic ammo box ok)

FIREARMS - (PA defines PISTOLS as Firearm)

www.packing.org/state/pennsylvania/#statecar_law

members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6109.html

DO NOT CARRY A LOADED PISTOL IN YOUR VEHICLE unless you have a Carry License!!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:39:40 AM EDT
I asked this very question of a PSP trooper. He said the weapon and ammo has to be separated. The rifle doesn't have to be in a case but he recommended that it should be cased. Ammo in a different case. He also said if you have loaded magazines in any part of your vehicle with the weapon they fit that the weapon is considered loaded. It doesn't matter if the ammo is in the backseat of a car and the rifle is in the trunk. His advice was to load magazines at the range. Local PD may not say much but it would depend on your relationship with the officer that stops you and the reson you where stopped. Of course none of this applies if you are carrying a handgun and have a carry permit.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 3:04:57 PM EDT
As for the loaded mags here is the PA law on the definition of a loaded firearm
"Loaded."
A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or, in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm.
I keep the gun in a soft case and the ammo in a can.
I've shoot many times with officers and none have said anything about this.
I would argue this in court if needed, but we have to also remember the law:
§ 6111.4. Registration of firearms.
Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

BUT THEY DO.
I have a thread about a seizure in Seward that they did not find all the guy's firearms (their list) and he showed them where the others were.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:05:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 9supercomp:
I've shoot many times with officers and none have said anything about this.



I too have found this to be the case. I work for a gun shop that caters to local law enforcement and some of the local PSP. Several times a month we have informal shoots with them and do guns and ammo demos for them several times a year. None have ever had a problem with us carrying loaded mags in the same case as our guns. This is a unique situation and I doubt the average person would be treated the same.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:44:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Truckie351:

Originally Posted By 9supercomp:
I've shoot many times with officers and none have said anything about this.



I too have found this to be the case. I work for a gun shop that caters to local law enforcement and some of the local PSP. Several times a month we have informal shoots with them and do guns and ammo demos for them several times a year. None have ever had a problem with us carrying loaded mags in the same case as our guns. This is a unique situation and I doubt the average person would be treated the same.



I always load my mags at home before I go shooting. My understandidng of the law is that a loaded mag is not a loaded gun so long as they are seperated. I beleive this also applies to us average people to.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:23:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Truckie351:
I asked this very question of a PSP trooper. He said the weapon and ammo has to be separated. The rifle doesn't have to be in a case but he recommended that it should be cased. Ammo in a different case. He also said if you have loaded magazines in any part of your vehicle with the weapon they fit that the weapon is considered loaded. It doesn't matter if the ammo is in the backseat of a car and the rifle is in the trunk. His advice was to load magazines at the range. Local PD may not say much but it would depend on your relationship with the officer that stops you and the reson you where stopped. Of course none of this applies if you are carrying a handgun and have a carry permit.



Your PSP buddy may consider the weapon "loaded", but by law/definition it is not loaded. He does not know what he is talking about.

Also, the weapon and ammo do not have to be "as far apart as possible".

The rifle does not have to be in a case.

The ammo must be carried in a seperate container.

No, you can not have a loaded rifle in your vehicle unless you fit into one of the exceptions, LEO, sheriff, etc.

PACC 6106 Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.—

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(b) Exceptions.—The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.

For the record, I'm a PA LEO.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:16:44 AM EDT
So is it legal to keep a rifle in my truck (say an old beater M44) with stripper clips in the glove box? This is what I want to know.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:29:55 PM EDT
Well.........glove compartment = seperate container???? I'm iffy on that one. Not saying its illegal, since the ammo is "seperated" from the rifle. However, I would not want my stripper clips bouncing around loose in the glove compartment. Best advice I can give you is to place the stripper clips in some kind of small container, maybe a pouch or plastic ammo box.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:28:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Steve_in_PA:

Originally Posted By Truckie351:
I asked this very question of a PSP trooper. He said the weapon and ammo has to be separated. The rifle doesn't have to be in a case but he recommended that it should be cased. Ammo in a different case. He also said if you have loaded magazines in any part of your vehicle with the weapon they fit that the weapon is considered loaded. It doesn't matter if the ammo is in the backseat of a car and the rifle is in the trunk. His advice was to load magazines at the range. Local PD may not say much but it would depend on your relationship with the officer that stops you and the reson you where stopped. Of course none of this applies if you are carrying a handgun and have a carry permit.



Your PSP buddy may consider the weapon "loaded", but by law/definition it is not loaded. He does not know what he is talking about.

Also, the weapon and ammo do not have to be "as far apart as possible".

The rifle does not have to be in a case.

The ammo must be carried in a seperate container.

No, you can not have a loaded rifle in your vehicle unless you fit into one of the exceptions, LEO, sheriff, etc.

PACC 6106 Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.—

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(b) Exceptions.—The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.


For the record, I'm a PA LEO.



So does that mean that I can have a loaded rifle in my truck if I have a carry permit?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:57:12 AM EDT
Nope, you can not carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle even if you have a carry permit.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:24:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 9supercomp:
As for the loaded mags here is the PA law on the definition of a loaded firearm
"Loaded."
A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or, in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm.



where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm.

So if I understand this correctly, it means that if you have a soft case with magazine pouches on the outside, you can have loaded mags in the compartments because they are not in the same compartment as the rifle.

Anyone care to clarify this for me?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:22:10 AM EDT
I would say that having a rifle in a case, and the mags in a pouch on the case would be ok.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:38:05 PM EDT
Thanks Steve.

When I go to the range, I only keep empty mags in the pouch, my ammo is normally in my range box with all my other stuff.

It's not even an issue when I come home from the range, cuz' I usually shoot all the ammo I take with me.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:54:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 5:03:05 AM EDT by clubsoda22]
Steve, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't transporting a loaded rifle (non NFA) in a motor vehicle regulated under the game code?

If i'm not mistaken it's a couple hundred dollar fine.

Regardless, it wouldn't be smart to carry a chambered rifle in your trunk (just for safety in an accident), and the amount of time it takes to insert a magazine from say, a mag pouch velcroed to the side of your trunk is minimal. I'm sure most police agencies don't even allow one in the chamber.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:25:56 AM EDT
§6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.

(a) General rule.—Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons excepted from the requirement of a license to carry firearms under section 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) nor shall the provisions of this section be construed to permit persons to carry firearms in a vehicle where such conduct is prohibited by section 6106.

(b) Penalty.—A person who violates the provisions of this section commits a summary offense.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:17:35 PM EDT
Things like this make very, very glad I have a License to Carry Concealed.

Unless I’m going to shoot my Bolt Action rifles I always load up the magazines at home before I leave for the range. And sometimes I might leave a loaded magazine in the pistol I plan on shooting. (Not often, but I do that on occasion.) As I understand it, I can do this because I can Carry Concealed.

Am I mistaken here?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:03:37 PM EDT
If you have a ccw, you can "legally", (meaning there is no law against it) leave a loaded handgun in a vehicle, not that I would recommend it.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:51:23 PM EDT
Just to muddy the waters, if you read the law closely, it appears to exempt Short Barrel Rifles and Short Barrel Shotguns.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:15:24 PM EDT
I asked this question to some friends of mine, that are some of Philly's finest. As long as you have a CCW permit, you are legally allowed to carry a "weapon" in your vehicle, as long as you are in the vehicle with it... (my assumption is that if you permit lets you carry loaded, you can transport loaded as long as it is on you in the vehicle. If it's not on your physical self, I think it would be careless to keep a loaded weapon in your vehicle.)

if you don't have a CCW permit, you are allowed to transport your unloaded firearms to and from the gun range, and the ammo must be seperate from the weapon.

I don't think PA allows you to put your AR in a back window gun rack, but as long as you have a CCW permit, you shoud be okay, as long as it's not visiable to the general public.

This is the understanding that I have, but I am not a lawyer, so don't take it as gospel.

Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:21:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 8:24:27 PM EDT by slyguy2000]

Originally Posted By macros73:
Just to muddy the waters, if you read the law closely, it appears to exempt Short Barrel Rifles and Short Barrel Shotguns.



YES, this is true, even if you have a CCW, you are not allowed to carry consealed, any sort of NFA weapons including SBR's, AOW's SBSG's MG's or SMG's

Firearms =semi auto pistols, revolvers, semi auto long guns, pump and semi auto shotguns

NFA Weapons are not leagally considered firearms, in the eyes of the law, they are Controled NFA Weapons.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:03:05 PM EDT
Can we get a positive on that NFA rule from a PA LEO? That is to say, if I carry an NFA weapon on my person, I'm violating PA's deadly weapons law?

Also, how does the law treat a rifle carried loaded on one's person (concealed or otherwise)? The game code covers only vehicles, so once the rifle and I are separated from a vehicle, I should be legally allowed to carry it locked, loaded, and concealed in my nether regions if I so choose, correct?

I'd hate to say it, but PA's laws are pretty poorly written, and represent a lot of conflicting an minority interests. Unfortunately for our LEOs, they can sometimes receive and therefore re-transmit conflicting training about what these laws mean. I spoke to a Westmoreland county deputy that told me I was liable to get thrown in jail for not having my current address on my CCW. I called the Allegheny courthouse to change it and they told me I didn't have to. (For the record, nothing in the law says I have to...)

Right now, I will possibly carry one rifle mag on my person, and a bunch more are always in a separate satchel. The rifle is in my trunk without any ammo, but if I have enough time to get at it, then I have enough time to load it as well. Besides...that's what handguns are for- to buy you that time. PA law would seem to make the transportation of tube-fed weapons for defensive purposes impractical (that is, if you are concerned about violating the law...which you should be!)

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:48:04 PM EDT

I just may add something onto my cupholder in the Truck to hold this



Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:46:41 PM EDT
§6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.

(a) General rule.—Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons excepted from the requirement of a license to carry firearms under section 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) nor shall the provisions of this section be construed to permit persons to carry firearms in a vehicle where such conduct is prohibited by section 6106.
(b) Penalty.—A person who violates the provisions of this section commits a summary offense.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:58:12 AM EDT
Picture above is my legal "papered" AR pistol , and I DO have a Carry License.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:46:55 PM EDT
Ended going with a Model 94 .30-30 and a box of shells in the glove box. I'll upgrade after I get my new truck...hopefully with room to mount a lockable rack. Thanks again guys!
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