Quoted: A group from the site will be there for training with F.I.R.E. and they have been alerted to this issue/thread.Maybe they can discuss it wit Tex, and convince him that what he did to you is as wrong as if they pissed in his chili and then told the state that they got sick from eating it ,so the state can investigate.

I have to admit PeteG and TonyF are nothing but upstanding guys.  Ive been to a F.I.R.E. class back before it had that name and was very happy with it.  Granted they are working with what they have to use this doesnt sit well.  They have very competative class prices but this may dissuade some people from attending.

My question is, are the F.I.R.E. class instructors using the club, or are they part of the club?

I sent the following e-mail message to "Tex"

Mr. Tex:

It is not legal to charge sales tax on firearms in which you are merely doing a tranfer for.  If your customer directly pays an out of state dealer for a weapon, then you are not taking title to the weapon.  Guns are not like vehicles in how they are taxed.

If you do collect the sales tax and forward it to the state, you have made a foolish error and upset a customer.  If you keep the sales tax then you have broken the law and cheated a customer.

I do not think I can patronize your facility based on your lack of knowledge of the law, taxation system and customer service.

AR-15.com member Rhainan

This disgusts me.  Do your transfers with Todd Enos of Gunrunners of PA.  He knows what he is doing.

OK,
I talked to Tex today.
He was on the phone this morning with the PA tax and revenue dept.
According to the state, when a firearm comes into the state, it should be taxed if it is coming from a dealer and going to an individual(in or out of state). The State is sending him a copy of the Statute so he will have it available for anyone that wants to view it. Also, according to the state, transfers should be taxed also. (It would behoove all you dealers who do not tax transfers to check this yourself since I am getting this second hand). Apparently this was told to Tex this morning. Tex has no reason to lie to me and we have been friends for many years. He's just following the PA tax code apparently.

Quoted: The only one responsible for this outrageous overcharge is the club person (Tex) and I hope those going to train there avoid using the club for anything other than training(ie.NO purchasing of drinks,meals,ammo,etc) until the money is refunded.

Yes, this was added incentive to avoid Tex-burgers. Guess we may be packing our lunches this time around.

Tex, this is inexcusable.  You are wrong. Period. [well, this may be pending verification of Ravyn's post above???]

I do hope that there is no negative fallout with Pete G and FIRE. They are above-board and provide a great service. And most of us know from experience how difficult it is to find a club which allows this type of "unrestricted" shooting.

My club just this week, and unannounced, changed shooting hours to end at sunset (was 9:30 PM) directly based on my doing some low-light shooting drills with other club members. Trap night shoots exempted (big surprise). This little gem will be addressed at the next monthly meeting, believe me.

Quoted: OK, I talked to Tex today. He was on the phone this morning with the PA tax and revenue dept. According to the state, when a firearm comes into the state, it should be taxed if it is coming from a dealer and going to an individual(in or out of state). The State is sending him a copy of the Statute so he will have it available for anyone that wants to view it. Also, according to the state, transfers should be taxed also. (It would behoove all you dealers who do not tax transfers to check this yourself since I am getting this second hand). Apparently this was told to Tex this morning. Tex has no reason to lie to me and we have been friends for many years. He's just following the PA tax code apparently.

I am not questioning the post I am just confused on the Tax.

How would the transfering dealer know what to charge if he didnt sell the gun ?
If my friend sent me a gun for free what would the tax be ?

A 6% tax on the transfer fee and or the fee's for services rendered (background check) seems more like it , not the value of the firearm since NO moneys changed hands to the dealer for the firearm.

Im no lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday inn express once.

Edited to add :
Has anyone really check what the tax code is for sure I mean read it themselves ?
Suppose for a minute Tex is doing what he assumes is correct and is just bullheaded.  I would hate to do anything but help a range stay in business. With the way it is here in VA rifle ranges are few and far between.

Quoted: Quoted: OK, I talked to Tex today. He was on the phone this morning with the PA tax and revenue dept. According to the state, when a firearm comes into the state, it should be taxed if it is coming from a dealer and going to an individual(in or out of state). The State is sending him a copy of the Statute so he will have it available for anyone that wants to view it. Also, according to the state, transfers should be taxed also. (It would behoove all you dealers who do not tax transfers to check this yourself since I am getting this second hand). Apparently this was told to Tex this morning. Tex has no reason to lie to me and we have been friends for many years. He's just following the PA tax code apparently. I am not questioning the post I am just confused on the Tax. How would the transfering dealer know what to charge if he didnt sell the gun ? If my friend sent me a gun for free what would the tax be ? A 6% tax on the transfer fee and or the fee's for services rendered (background check) seems more like it , not the value of the firearm since NO moneys changed hands to the dealer for the firearm. Im no lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday inn express once. Edited to add : Has anyone really check what the tax code is for sure I mean read it themselves ? Suppose for a minute Tex is doing what he assumes is correct and is just bullheaded.  I would hate to do anything but help a range stay in business. With the way it is here in VA rifle ranges are few and far between.

I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot at me cause I shoot back

Edited to add :
Has anyone really check what the tax code is for sure I mean read it themselves ?
Suppose for a minute Tex is doing what he assumes is correct and is just bullheaded. I would hate to do anything but help a range stay in business. With the way it is here in VA rifle ranges are few and far between.

I haven't had an FFL for about 10 years so I don't know the code now, but Tex said the Dept of Rev is sending the specific statute to him. I've never known Tex to try and screw anybody. The better part of valor here might be to keep the hammers at half cock till we all get a clear understanding of Tex's actions. He's a tight wad but he ain't no dick

My .02,

There are a lot laws and interpretation of laws that compel tax compliance that are never enforced.

One example is mail order/internet sales. Because of jurisdictional conflicts, there are typically no laws regarding who should be collecting, reporting and forwarding the taxes. In those cases it usually the responsibility of the consumer to do this. Logic here (as pointed out by u-baddog) would indicate that the consumer is responsible for this obligation. I doubt that there is a law that compels the receiving dealer to do this for the reasons previously pointed out.

YMMV.

A couple of points:

Before I got further explanation of Tex's fee structure I wondered if he was overcharging me in particular. I have subsequently found out that $15 + 6% sales tax + 10% club costs is his standard rate. So I do not feel this was personal.

That being said, let's say that Tex is correct in charging sales tax on a weapon I pre-paid an out-of-state dealer...

This still means that Tex/GPGC charges $15 + 10%. On a $1200 rifle, that is $135.00.

This also means, hypothetically speaking, that every other dealer/FFL around here is doing it wrong.

What I want people to know is that Tex Freund/GPGC charges $15 + 10% (or 5% if a member) + 6% sales tax on FFL transfers from an out-of-state dealer.

In my conversation I posed the same question to Tex as one of the above posters asked: How do you know what I payed? This gave Tex pause yet again as he began mentioning "paperwork with the gun."

I told him the only reason he saw that paperwork was because I let him. The only reason he knows what I paid for the rifle is because in my honesty I told him. How would he know if I bought from a dealer or a private individual? He couldn't really answer this question.

I enjoy shooting at GPGC, it has become one of my favorite hobbies. I paid the initial membership fee of $100 and then twice paid the $35 yearly fee(reasonable IMO). I always pay before I shoot and usually bring a non-member friend as well. Many times I buy targets and ammo. So I understand that a business needs to make money, but he is making money. I also understand that the FFL transfer fee itself is taxable. We all know this.

I never had a problem with Tex personally and I respected his ranges. He is a gruff guy and that is fine, aren't we all. But he overcharges for FFL transfers.

Put it this way: if Tex is so proud of his ethical business practices and fair pricing, he should be thanking me for all of this free advertising.

BTW, thanks for all of the support. I am feeling a brotherly bond here on this board that I wish all shooters everywhere would have.

I can understand how the state tax laws in PA are confusing - for many.  I can even understand how a person in the state tax office would be... say lacking in knowledge of the complicated tax laws of a state and the Constitution of the United States (especially with Fast Eddie trying to create more and more taxes).   Look at how many people don't understand the gun laws of their state or the country (how many of you have been asked, when you pull out your AR at a range "isn't that illegal?").

But, I think you don't have to go too much farther than the PA Department of Revenue website to see the answer:

PA Dept of Rev - Use Tax

The reason for a "Use Tax" is that it is unconstitutional to place any restrictions (read - Taxes) on Interstate  Commerce.  This was put into the Constitution to promote trade between the states back when this country was founded.  It is the main reason you don't see states trying to push though Internet taxes (because they wouldn't go through 1 round of court before being stripped from the books).  They do the "end-round" on this by charging you a tax to "use" the product you bought.  It's another case of the states penalizing their citizens for purchasing out of state goods and services (keep in mind, you vote for these tax-hiking politicians - be aware when you vote!).  

It is Thekatar's responsiblity to turn this tax in.  Tex has NO authority to charge a "Use tax."  It would be as if I decided to tell Tex that I am withholding the amount of tax on my shooting fee that he owes to the state - it's a service and is taxable by law (I can imagine how upset he would be if I did that).

I can give a "pass" to Tex if it turns out that some idiot at the Tax office has no idea of what is going on. He should do his best to understand the law and he should grant a refund because it is clear that he is wrong.  I CANNOT give a "pass" to Tex for the "club fee" or whatever other BS fee he is charging.  

Either way, he has caused a problem for himself because he has not done his best to keep his customer happy.  Now, he has not only lost one customer, he has lost at least 2 and has the fury of the Internet pointed at him.  It's just not good for business.  It could possibly be the hardest $147 he ever made.  I hope that he enjoys it.

I am not a lawyer but then again, you don't have to be a lawyer to be able to read.   You just have to be a lawyer to charge someone hundreds of dollars to read something for them.  

Quoted: I can understand how the state tax laws in PA are confusing - for many.  I can even understand how a person in the state tax office would be... say lacking in knowledge of the complicated tax laws of a state and the Constitution of the United States (especially with Fast Eddie trying to create more and more taxes).   Look at how many people don't understand the gun laws of their state or the country (how many of you have been asked, when you pull out your AR at a range "isn't that illegal?"). But, I think you don't have to go too much farther than the PA Department of Revenue website to see the answer: PA Dept of Rev - Use Tax The reason for a "Use Tax" is that it is unconstitutional to place any restrictions (read - Taxes) on Interstate  Commerce.  This was put into the Constitution to promote trade between the states back when this country was founded.  It is the main reason you don't see states trying to push though Internet taxes (because they wouldn't go through 1 round of court before being stripped from the books).  They do the "end-round" on this by charging you a tax to "use" the product you bought.  It's another case of the states penalizing their citizens for purchasing out of state goods and services (keep in mind, you vote for these tax-hiking politicians - be aware when you vote!).   It is Thekatar's responsiblity to turn this tax in.  Tex has NO authority to charge a "Use tax."  It would be as if I decided to tell Tex that I am withholding the amount of tax on my shooting fee that he owes to the state - it's a service and is taxable by law (I can imagine how upset he would be if I did that). I can give a "pass" to Tex if it turns out that some idiot at the Tax office has no idea of what is going on. He should do his best to understand the law and he should grant a refund because it is clear that he is wrong.  I CANNOT give a "pass" to Tex for the "club fee" or whatever other BS fee he is charging.   Either way, he has caused a problem for himself because he has not done his best to keep his customer happy.  Now, he has not only lost one customer, he has lost at least 2 and has the fury of the Internet pointed at him.  It's just not good for business.  It could possibly be the hardest $147 he ever made.  I hope that he enjoys it. I am not a lawyer but then again, you don't have to be a lawyer to be able to read.   You just have to be a lawyer to charge someone hundreds of dollars to read something for them.

Bud-a-bing!

I find that gunclubs, ranges, and large gunshops lack a customer service mentality.  I don't dismiss these arrogant codgers as "gruff" or "senile" or even "silly old bastards".  That's too euphemistic.  The correct term for them is "asshole".  Tex may or may not be an asshole.  However, he sounds like one of the profiteering assholes who used to run our range here.  Sanctimonious, arrogant, and treated most everyone (except a few of his old asshole buddies) like they were complete idiots who owed him respect for the privilege of paying him to be a member and to shoot.  He became more of an asshole after drinking beer all day at the clubhouse with the few other asshole buddies (ret.) he had.  (Note, in this instance "ret." stands for retarded, not retired).  Thankfully, he's gone.  If Tex is an asshole, hopefully he's read this.  Hopefully he realizes he is in the service industry and is replaceable.  If he doesn't believe he is replaceable, he should drive by any cemetary.   If he's not an asshole, then he won't overcharge his customers.  I wonder, did Tex pay all that "tax" to the state dept. of revenue?  Maybe let the assholes at the department of revenue audit the asshole charging "tax" but not remitting it.

You know I just went through the same thing with my AR30. I paid Armalite direct for the gun. Had it sent to my FFL and got hit for the Tax and the transfer fee. Then hit for tax on the transfer fee also. So in reality the deal I got from Armalite was eaten up  in taxes. This was the first time this happened to me with this guy.
Then to make matters worse I find a place that would do it for $15.00 and would not have charged me tax or the NICS charge also. So now I know who to do my business with and the guy  also became a DPMS dealer and said he will give me discounts on DPMS guns and parts.

The beauty of America is capitalism.  In most instances, if a business overcharges and/or provides shoddy service, someone or some company will replace them.  If an employee causes a business to lose money as a result of the foregoing, that employee will be replaced.  I find the one upside to a bad economy is better service from people concerned about keeping their jobs.

Thekater,

I just sent you an IM about Coraopolis Sportsmen's Club.

If anybody is interested in checking the place out, let me know and I'll give you the FREE tour!  

(note:  The free tour costs $147.00 for out-of-state residents).

har4

Quoted: I find that gunclubs, ranges, and large gunshops lack a customer service mentality.  I don't dismiss these arrogant codgers as "gruff" or "senile" or even "silly old bastards".  That's too euphemistic.  The correct term for them is "asshole".  Tex may or may not be an asshole.  However, he sounds like one of the profiteering assholes who used to run our range here.  Sanctimonious, arrogant, and treated most everyone (except a few of his old asshole buddies) like they were complete idiots who owed him respect for the privilege of paying him to be a member and to shoot.  He became more of an asshole after drinking beer all day at the clubhouse with the few other asshole buddies (ret.) he had.  (Note, in this instance "ret." stands for retarded, not retired).  Thankfully, he's gone.  If Tex is an asshole, hopefully he's read this.  Hopefully he realizes he is in the service industry and is replaceable.  If he doesn't believe he is replaceable, he should drive by any cemetary.   If he's not an asshole, then he won't overcharge his customers.  I wonder, did Tex pay all that "tax" to the state dept. of revenue?  Maybe let the assholes at the department of revenue audit the asshole charging "tax" but not remitting it.

+1

Quoted: Thekater, I just sent you an IM about Coraopolis Sportsmen's Club. If anybody is interested in checking the place out, let me know and I'll give you the FREE tour!   (note:  The free tour costs $147.00 for out-of-state residents). har4

har4,

Check your IM sir!

Quoted: hunters warehouse in state college??

Beat me to it.  Mr. Engle is back open for business in Bellefonte, PA, just north of State College:

Hunter's Warehouse
727 W Lamb St
Bellefonte, PA 16823-2753 Phone:  (814) 238-3010  

Stay the hell away.

Noah

Tex has no legal right to collect sales tax on your out of state gun purchase. As somebody stated earlier this year on this post, the tax that pertains to this is the USE portion of the Sales and Use Tax act in PA. Revenue tax codes.

You can contact the PA. Revenue District Office in Pittsburgh on Liberty Ave. if you wish to file a complaint. If he collected this as sales tax, and did not remit it to the state, he is technically in the wrong, although they will not bring criminal charges against him for what the Dept. considers such a small amount of illegally collected tax. The address and phone numbers for the Rev. office in PGH. can be found in the blue pages of your Pittsburgh phone book.

This guy is a totally immoral person as far as this issue goes. Although he can claim ignorance I doubt he does not know he was screwing you.

The downside to reporting the incident to the Dept of Revenue is that they may force you to register for a Use tax license.

By the way, this type of Use tax under PA. law is called Unenforceable Use Tax. It is supposed to work voluntarily. ALL the mail order items everybody purchases from out of state that come into PA. are supposed to be reported this way in order to collect 6 percent sales tax and pass it on to the PA. Dept. of Revenue. Can you imagine that the state could enforce this law for all purchases of sales taxable goods as defined by PA. law? The state Revenue work force would have to be a half million strong to do so.

I don't remember the date this transaction took place, but you would only have had about sixty days from the date of the purchase(or transfer) to file an appeal with the Dept of Revenue Board of Appeals. I believe that date has passed. The next step of appeal would be the PA. Board of Finance and Revenue, but you would have to pay the disputed amount of tax before they will let you appeal at this stage, and it would be refunded if you won the appeal.

I would not buy anything else from this guy, no matter how nice some of you guys say the dealer normally is, nor would I ever belong, or use his range again. Just my personal feelings about him.

I am done with Tex at GPGC, I will not give someone that greedy and immoral a second chance. He is without honor.

I will do all of my future transactions with:

Island Firearms, Inc.
7400 Grand Avenue
Neville Island, PA 15225

They get the job done for a good price. When I told those guys there that Tex charged sales tax, they said, "He can't do that!"

I am still in the process of looking for a new place to shoot, I am going to try to scope out Coraopolis today or later this week.

Quoted: Thekater, I just sent you an IM about Coraopolis Sportsmen's Club. If anybody is interested in checking the place out, let me know and I'll give you the FREE tour!   (note:  The free tour costs $147.00 for out-of-state residents). har4

har4 and I had a good time shooting at Coraopolis Sportsmen's Club. He was shooting a nice diverse array of rifles while I re-introduced him to the wonders of small-caliber AKs (SAR-2 and SAR-3.)

Nice well-maintained 100m range with many target stands available to put wherever you like. Indoor pistol range as well. I met the proprieter and unlike Tax Fraud at GPGC he was not "surly" or gruff (i.e. an  asshat)

I plan on getting much more shooting in before the winter arrives.

thanks har4 and AR-15.com for getting me a new place to shoot!

From the Oct 2004 Greater Pgh Gun Club Newsletter Manager's Report:

"Looks like bad advertising is working better than some of the good advertising we've done in the past! A disgruntled former member has been spreading bad rumors about GPGC but it seems to be backfiring and working for us instead of against us! People who hear it want to come and see what could be that bad and they end up staying and participating!"

"Staying and participating?"    Yeah but are they BUYING any firearms?

I doubt it, since GPGC would charge a non-member 15% markup ("club costs", don't ya know) and would also charge them PA sales tax even if they purchased the firearm out-of-state and simply had GPGC do the FFL transfer.  

Bad rumors? Try "just the facts." GPGC will charge you PA state sales tax on a firearm that you purchased out-of state and then charge anywhere between 5 and 15% extra to get "their cut" even if they did no legwork at all.

Do yourself a favor and get your FFL transfers at Island Firearms on Neville Island and do your shooting at Coraopolis District Sportsman's Assoc.

Quoted: From the Oct 2004 Greater Pgh Gun Club Newsletter Manager's Report: "Looks like bad advertising is working better than some of the good advertising we've done in the past! A disgruntled former member has been spreading bad rumors about GPGC but it seems to be backfiring and working for us instead of against us! People who hear it want to come and see what could be that bad and they end up staying and participating!" "Staying and participating?"    Yeah but are they BUYING any firearms? I doubt it, since GPGC would charge a non-member 15% markup ("club costs", don't ya know) and would also charge them PA sales tax even if they purchased the firearm out-of-state and simply had GPGC do the FFL transfer.   Bad rumors? Try "just the facts." GPGC will charge you PA state sales tax on a firearm that you purchased out-of state and then charge anywhere between 5 and 15% extra to get "their cut" even if they did no legwork at all. Do yourself a favor and get your FFL transfers at Island Firearms on Neville Island and do your shooting at Coraopolis District Sportsman's Assoc.

+1       Educate yourself before getting ripped off!!