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Posted: 8/16/2003 6:11:45 AM EDT
Well, I am about to try it this weekend and next.

Any thoughts?
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 4:58:24 PM EDT
Suicide is the first thing that comes to mind...

I wasn't aware that open carry was legal unless you were hunting...

I 'sorta thought "concealed" (with permit) was the only legal way to carry.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 5:20:04 PM EDT
Just as an FYI, if you have a PA CCW, you can't carry open in public unless hunting (or related activity).

Sounds weird, but it's the law.

Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:36:51 PM EDT
DavidC -

That's just not true.

We spent a lot of time going over PA law with a lawyer at my Tactical Carbine Course in Pittsburg. That's not an issue.

I've open carried when the class went to resturant, and I've done it at subway here in York.

M4 - you have a problem. You can open carry up here, but you can't transport your gun. PA is like Maryland, you either have to be going to the range or the gunshop. I guess you could claim you were headed to the show.

BTW - just got back from down south. Had my PA CCW and used it in Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia. Felt great.

2 out 3 PA Supreme Court judges have written an opinion that there is nothing preventing open carry, except in a class 1 city - Philadelphia, which was specifically exempted by the Legislature
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:04:11 AM EDT
Can you provide some citations to back up your opinion? Just curious.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:17:24 AM EDT
I'd suggest you join the PGH Training list and post up specific CCW questions there.

One of the main list members is the lawyer that taught our class.

Have you got any citations to back up your opinion?
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 8:18:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 8:31:30 AM EDT by DavidC]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Have you got any citations to back up your opinion?



Well, Act 17 explicitly reinforces the state pre-emption right over local laws and doesn't exclude any city of the first class (Philly) so I was wondering if you could provide the citation that gave Philadelphia an exemption from the Act. Not being a smart ass, just curious.

Unfortunately, I don't know where to find Act 17 on the web to refer you to the pre-emption stuff.

Eidt ....

Never mind, I found it in my copy of the satae laws.

Open carry is legal as long as you are on foot.

Open carry in a vehicle requires a license to carry, from any state (18 PaCSA 6106).

Open carry in Philly requires a licemse to carry concealed (18 PaCSA 6108).

Act 17 states that a CCW firearm should be concealed; it is a technicality however, and while it gives a LEO the opportunity to interact with you, you can't be charged with anything for doing so.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:32:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 9:36:02 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Been a few weeks since we did the class, so my memory might be a bit fuzzy, but they did talk about the legislature specifically passing a bill for restrictions on open carry in Philly.

18 PA 6106

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.


No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:


such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:42:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 9:43:05 AM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]

.

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.




Hell, that right there in red is almost anyone. It doesnt say what orginization you have to be a member of!
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 12:25:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 12:27:28 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Here's an informative reply I received from Pete (the lawyer) on the PGH list:


At 01:37 PM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:


This appears to ban open carry in PA w/out a license. What am I missing here?

Section 6106(a) defines the subject matter of the statute, which is "a firearm in any vehicle or . . . concealed on or about his person." This statute pertains to transporting in a vehicle and to concealed carry, not open carry outside a vehicle. To carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle (whether concealed or not), and/or to carry a loaded firearm concealed outside a vehicle, one must have a license. The carrying of a not-concealed ("open") hand gun or long gun outside a vehicle is not regulated by this statute, or any other state statute (except in Philadelphia, which is specially governed by a different state statute, and certain statutes that restrict possession of any firearm - long, short, concealed or open - in certain places).

To understand what Section 6106 means, you also have be aware of the definition of "firearm," which is in a different part of the statute. This statute is only referring to what we generally think of as hand guns. Section 6106 does not authorize carrying loaded long guns in a vehicle under any circumstances - with or without a license. A different statute authorizes the carrying of unloaded long guns in vehicles, if transported in closed containers. There is a special definition of "loaded" when referring to semi-auto, magazine-fed rifles and shotguns. If you don't know the special meanings ascribed to these terms, you cannot know what the statute means.

These statutes are not easy to interpret. You cannot read one section and know what the law means; you will be mislead. One with a legal education and some experience in statutory construction would have to devote several hours of concerted study to the matter, plus some research of case law interpreting these statutes, to make an informed judgment regarding their legal effect. Most attorneys have never done this, because they have never been called upon to do so.

For heaven's sake, be careful with this stuff.

PeteG

Link Posted: 8/18/2003 1:53:13 PM EDT
Man I hate laws that read a whole lot but say nothing.

HTF Are we (the ones supposed to follow the law) know what the hell we are allowed to do?
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 2:52:44 PM EDT
You aren't.

THEY can't control a law abiding man.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 3:06:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 3:08:35 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
You aren't.

THEY can't control a law abiding man.



You said it!
So I wonder if its legal or not? I bet those LEO's you were with would shit an Ox if they found out they were eating with a felon in the act if it turns out not being legal.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:02:20 PM EDT
>>"A different statute authorizes the carrying of unloaded long guns in vehicles, if transported in closed containers."

So then if you are carrying a rifle in a case in your trunk, then where can you legally put the ammunition.

Link Posted: 8/19/2003 6:49:17 AM EDT
Separate container.

Don't carry loaded mags unless you have a CCW.

Here's some more fun on the subject - www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=14&t=172406
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:13:51 PM EDT
Well,

I was at a TGIF's a little south if York PA in York county. While I was in the bathroom I saw a CO LEO and asked him if open carry was legal in PA and he had to think about it and said no. So who knows is he knew what he was talking about or not.

I am going to call maybe a few states attorneys and ask around. They should know the laws.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 1:25:54 PM EDT
Anyone have an update?

F4YR,
you said you know of the supreme court ruling this as a yes to open carry.

I did a few google searches but didnt find anything.

Do you have that link still?
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 8:12:28 AM EDT
M4,
Most LEOs don't know the law - which is the problem.

BTW you cannot open carry - but F4YR can. It has to do with transport laws, F4YR's CCW gives him exemption from some of those laws.

Now as to the legality of open carry in PA. It seems to boil down to this. The state supreame court has indicated if the law DOESN'T SPECIFICIALLY PROHIBIT it then its legal to do. There is no law in PA against open carry (however there are laws about transporting weapons which is where those of us w/o CCWs would get into trouble).

There was a opinion from the PA Supream Court on this and the opinion was with the 'its legal side'. Note Pete did indicate it wasn't binding (meaning you could be taken in & you'd have to fight it). However he indicate if he had to go in front of a judge, he'd do so with that opinion paper and thinks no judge would rule against it.

Of course he is a lawyer and knows how to argue it and which papers you'll need to present. I know another lawyer on the list doesn't think open carry is on such stabil ground as Pete. I'll let the lawyers hash it out, as its irrelavant for people without PA CCWs.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 8:22:15 AM EDT
There is a link on packing.org to a sheriff in PA that will give you a PA CCW licence if you have a CCW from your home state. IIRC the cost was only about 20 bucks, but I may be wrong. But it is worth checking out.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 8:15:03 PM EDT
Yeah, I guess I don't heaver the resources to fight it if I get arrested (ie Money & The legal documents!)

Oh well. Wont be long....
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:03:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 1:05:13 PM EDT by TonyF]
M4,

I think Pete sent me info on this issue some time ago but I can't find it in my files.

There was an LEO from eastern PA (near to but not a suburb of Philly) in the last PFDC class the weekend of Oct 10 - 12. I specifically asked him about open carry and he stated that as far as he knows it is legal. If he sees someone carrying open he will inquire (which I think is reasonable) and if the individual has no cause to make him suspicious it's no big deal.

I also asked him his opinion about carrying fixed blade knives, open or concealed and he basically replied the same.

Whether you get "questioned" or even "hassled" pretty much boils down to how knowledegable the LEO is with regard to PA law.

Of those LEO's who do not know open carry is not prohibited, there really isn't anything they can charge you with .... that will stick.
And again, allot will depend on your actions and behavior at the time you and the LEO interact.

Forest strikes a chord in this discussion, open carry is not so much "legal" as it is "not prohibited". I believe Pete told me that the court case to which he refers dates back to the turn of the century (IIRC it was 1899).

HTH
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:58:37 PM EDT
Thanks Tony. I will start calling a few local PA PD's and ask some of the older officers there and see what they say.

Who is Pete though?

How about you try it and tell us the effects?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 7:48:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 7:53:02 PM EDT by TonyF]

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
Thanks Tony. I will start calling a few local PA PD's and ask some of the older officers there and see what they say.

Who is Pete though?

How about you try it and tell us the effects?



M4,

Calling around is probably a wise course of action.

Pete Georgiades is an attorney in Pittsburgh. He owns and operates the Pennsylvania Firearms Development Corporation. He teaches carbine classes and brings in some very notable instructors for other courses. Forest and Dan Tucker have written reviews of his courses over on the tactics and training forum. You should hop over there and check them out.

I'm not quite ready to test the waters. I live about 15 miles NE of Pittsburgh but it is nevertheless quite urbanized and there is a fair amount of home grown gang and drug activity and carrying open would most certainly attract allot of attention. If I lived in a rural area I would be more inclined to give it a try.

However, I agree wholeheartedly with Pete's view that it would be nice, especially in the winter, to be able to remove your coat or jacket when you go out to eat or go to the movies or theater and not have to worry about getting "noticed", then have to explain yourself to those who are most likely ignorant, and hope the LEO they just called is both knowledgeable and sympathetic.

I have a friend / acquaintance who has been very instrumental in influencing pro gun legislation and defeating anti gun measures in the PA state legislature. His opinion is that if we were to try and legislate open carry it could backfire and open a can of worms. I trust and respect his advice because he's been in the forefront of gun related legislative battles for many years and knows the politics of the state very well.

One of the problems with passing an open carry law is that it may create a groundswell of private businesses posting against open or concealed carry in their establishments (influenced to a great extent by the news media). This would have a chilling effect on our ability to open carry in those same aforementioned restaurants, movie theaters and other businesses. :(

FWIW, each time I've been to Gunsite I've seen folks in and around Chino Valley carrying open and I must say it does warm the heart. :)

OTOH, I have heard the locals out there lament the fact that not 30 minutes away in Prescott open carry is seldom seen.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:12:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyF:

I'm not quite ready to test the waters. I live about 15 miles NE of Pittsburgh



Pete talked me into Open Carrying just outside Pittsburgh while I attended Carbine 1.

We all went to dinner one night and I carried, I also did at a resturant on the way home to York, and at a Subway here in York. No problems.

I think many folks believe you're a cop. The short haircut doesn't hurt.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:24:20 AM EDT
I live about 15 miles due east of da burgh, and I've only tried open carry once and it was on accident!

I was going to the old Giant Eagle late for some milk and other essentials. I guess when I got out of my car my shirt got bunched up on top of the pistol which I was carrying on my left side more towards my rear. I pulled my shirt over it (or so I thought) and went inside the iggle and did my shopping. When I was checking out the cashier asked me what type of pistol I was carrying. I must have had the look of complete shock on my face because I didn't answer right away. It wasn't until I noticed that the bottom of the grip was not covered at all that I knew I had been walking around with half my pistol exposed!

The cashier wasn't freaked at all and began to discuss his CCW pistol which he had on him while working the 11-7am shift (against GE policy). I was pretty damn embarrased since I've never had my CCW status exposed after carrying for 5+ years. I walked past other late night shoppers and stockers and no one gave me a second glance (or maybe they didn't see it).

I'll have to try it "for real" to really test hte waters sometime, but I live so close to Homewood that I am afraid I might draw fire!
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 7:14:16 AM EDT
What about open carry in a state park while hiking?
Its going to be almost 70 degrees this Sunday. Me and the girlfriend are going hiking, I'm going to be carrying no matter what, but I might open carry.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 11:29:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
DavidC -


BTW - just got back from down south. Had my PA CCW and used it in Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia. Felt great.



PA CCW is recognized in WV???!!!! I didn't think the PA permit was legal for WV. Someone e-mail or IM me please to confirm. packing.org doesn't list it as so but I know it's not always correct. IM or e-mail please.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 11:49:41 AM EDT
From NRA/ILA

Issuing Authority:
County Sheriff or Chief of Police

Contact agency for out-of-state resident permits:
Any Sheriff's Department

These states recognize your permit:
Alaska, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Montana, Utah, Vermont, Wyoming

This state recognizes permits from the following states:
Florida, Georgia, Kentucky

Link Posted: 10/22/2003 12:30:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By right2keep:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
DavidC -


BTW - just got back from down south. Had my PA CCW and used it in Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia. Felt great.



PA CCW is recognized in WV???!!!! I didn't think the PA permit was legal for WV. Someone e-mail or IM me please to confirm. packing.org doesn't list it as so but I know it's not always correct. IM or e-mail please.



It's not.

Given the power outage at the time, and the little time I spent driving through WV, VA & MD, I just carried the whole way back.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 1:53:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2003 1:59:08 PM EDT by TonyF]

Originally Posted By Dredd308:
What about open carry in a state park while hiking?



Carrying firearms open or concealed is expressly forbidden in state parks. Hunting is allowed in season in designated areas. At all other times a personal firearms must be kept within the confines of your vehicle.

For some reason, the state gave jurisdiction to the DCNR and the game commision with respect to firearms regulations.

http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/7504

It's an unhealthy state of affairs because I recently saw a news story that indicated violent crime in our nations largest national parks is at a level equal to our largest cities what with all the transients lurking about. I'm sure state parks are relatively safe but I don't feel comfortable being on trails w/o a firearm. How the heck would the police ever be able to find you even if they did respond if you called on your cell phone?
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 2:02:24 AM EDT
All us Pittsburgh area guys should get togeather for an "open carry night" Then if the waters are kinda rough we will have someone to talk to in jail. LOL Seriously though I might have to start to open carry & see what happens.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:52:32 AM EDT
I decided to test the waters a little tonight. SoI open carried at the Co-Go's In Verona just outside of Pittsburgh tonight. No problems. Lots of customers in there & noone even looked at me funny. I kinda liked it.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 9:44:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Medic08:
I decided to test the waters a little tonight. SoI open carried at the Co-Go's In Verona just outside of Pittsburgh tonight. No problems. Lots of customers in there & noone even looked at me funny. I kinda liked it.



Hmm, I live really close to there, maybe I should give it a real go ahead?

I live not far from there at all. I suppose if I looked professional enought no one would think otherwise, of course I would be paranoid as hell. I live in the Verona area and never thought it would go over well with the local populace and the gang bangers that live on my end.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 7:07:51 AM EDT
Ill have to talk with one of the local Mt Pleasant LEO's and see what thier opinion is. I saw some guy down in the local subway one day carrying and he did not have the air of an LEO about Him. Up here where I live (Acme) we have no local police save the Fayette co sheriff and I have never seen a police car in this area that I can recall. I talked to a State Trooper a few weeks ago who told me that they (the state police)dont usually get calls from up here and never come up here unless someone is dead or something. I open carry around the neighborhood when I go out with my wife for a walk or if I am doing yard work especially since I have neighbor a few hundred yards away who likes to feed bears and there are some either wild dogs or possibly wolves in the area. None of my neighbors seem to care at all so...
Maybe an ARFCOM "open carry breakfast" before the next show or something is in order.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 1:46:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:

Originally Posted By Medic08:
I decided to test the waters a little tonight. SoI open carried at the Co-Go's In Verona just outside of Pittsburgh tonight. No problems. Lots of customers in there & noone even looked at me funny. I kinda liked it.



Hmm, I live really close to there, maybe I should give it a real go ahead?

I live not far from there at all. I suppose if I looked professional enought no one would think otherwise, of course I would be paranoid as hell. I live in the Verona area and never thought it would go over well with the local populace and the gang bangers that live on my end.



Kinda helps that I know all the cops there in town since I run on the Ambulance there. I figgured if anyone had said anything all would be good.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 8:22:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Medic08:
All us Pittsburgh area guys should get togeather for an "open carry night" Then if the waters are kinda rough we will have someone to talk to in jail. LOL Seriously though I might have to start to open carry & see what happens.



I don't see why you would want to open carry when a CCW in PA is so easy to get. I think you don't even have to wait anymore as the sheriffs office does a insta check, snaps your pic and your on your way. Just my .02
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 6:34:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arjohnson:


I don't see why you would want to open carry when a CCW in PA is so easy to get.



1. because I'm an American and the 2nd Amendment gives me the Right

2. because it's a lot more comfortable than CCW

3. because the sheeple should get used to people carrying weapons - then they wouldn't freak out when they see one
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 7:28:18 PM EDT
Jumping in a little late on this thread, but the premise is interesting.
Mine and some of my friends' houses aren't in the best of neighborhoods here in Philly. Carrying open in the hood (I live in one so I don't mind saying hood), most people would probably assume you were a plainclothes police officer- except the police of course.

In neighborhoods where I'm getting a shady vibe, I kind of re-position my CCW weapon so that it's printing very obviously- carrying open in a practical way.
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