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Posted: 6/5/2003 12:15:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 12:18:17 PM EDT by Stryker_11A]
Who would be interested in getting together some weekend for a mini evil black rifle convention? Open to suggestions?

Anyone have any range recommendations? I really want to get out to Hamburg, Armabill goes there. 300 yards and an anything pit, who can beat that?

I live outside of Philadelphia, something midstate would probably draw more shooters.

Let's hear your ideas!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:40:40 PM EDT
I'll be there after 6pm on a Saturday or anytime on a Sunday!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 4:58:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 5:07:34 PM EDT by armabill]
It would have to be an open non-membership range. You need a membership for Hamburg. Hamburg allows one guest per membership per year. Of course if we all have memberships that'd be ok.

Yes, where is a good question. There is a range up in the Poconos that charges only $10 per day, $5 for a one time rage safety course. I heard that they allow rapid fire and have some long ranges.

A Sunday would be a good day.

It's called Sunset Hill: www.sunsethillrange.com/main.html
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:36:26 PM EDT
Sunset Hill sounds doable, 200 yards, stretch our legs a bit.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:00:15 PM EDT
There are a couple longer ranges in the Altoona area that might be willing to host.

Bellwood Sportsmen has a 300 yard (or meter, I forget) range and the Reade Range is 1000 yards.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 4:10:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 4:17:14 AM EDT by armabill]
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 2:40:13 PM EDT
I'm in. Ops
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:55:02 AM EDT
I guess what club is selected will be determined by how long of a range that you want to shoot.

Me, I'll shoot on and at any range. I've also shot at non-ranges(?). But that's another story.

Maybe a poll for range distance to see what's more popular.

I don't mind traveling if it's worth it.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 12:13:18 PM EDT
I'm in if I'm not at sea.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 12:17:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
I'm in if I'm not at sea.



Your a member at USIDFVets.com too right?
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 2:00:33 PM EDT
I guess any range with a 100 yards would be sufficient.

So know that we have determined that there is an interest lets pick a range and some dates.

Range first. Armabill, you seem to be the range wizard here with the most experience, which would you recommend?
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:09:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 5:26:44 PM EDT by armabill]
I've never been to Sunset Hill but would like to. It's open to the public, not necessary to have a membership. What and how many tables they have I don't know.

This sounds like a Recon should be done. If it's ok with everyone, I'll check out the place next Sunday, Saturday I'm going to the gun show at Valley Forge.

However, between now and next Sunday, if anyone has a better place in mind, considering the distance and range facilities, let us all know. We'll work from there.

Most ranges don't like AR's or similar type weapons, so range selection will be conducive to that. Web sites don't tell you the whole story, you have to visit the range in person.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 9:51:37 AM EDT
If everything works out, I might be able to go up to Sunset Hill gun range on Friday for the Recon.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 12:25:33 PM EDT
Outstanding Mr. C. Looks lile we could have up to 15 ARFCOM members attending, judging from the results of the poll. That would be really great to get that many of us together. I would probably bring a friend or 2 along and try to give them black rifle fever. I will probably invite my entire officer candidate class along. Should get a few from that too.

Appreciate the leg work.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 8:27:16 PM EDT
I won't know how many Sunset Hill can handle all at once. Will find out though.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:58:59 AM EDT
Sunset hill has the same area code as me, so I think it's pretty close.

I could probably do that.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:42:24 PM EDT
Meeting tomorrow night at Hamburg Rifle & Pistol Club in Shartlesville...

Wed 7pm. if you wanna join...
(I'm already a member)
Bring your NRA membership cards, it gets you a $35 discount...
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:48:32 AM EDT
If it is in eastern or central PA I'd be interested.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 10:22:23 AM EDT
I'm all set to leave for Sunset Hill in the Poconos tomorrow. I'll give a report on it as soon as I can.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:03:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 9:09:01 AM EDT by armabill]
Sunset Hill Shooting Range: www.sunsethillrange.com/main.html

Regardless of what their web site says, they are now open from 10AM to 5PM every day, 7 days. The directions that they give are accurate.

95% of their shooting positions are roof covered. The section for gun rentals are separate from non-rentals. AR's are welcomed but no rapid fire allowed, only controlled sustained fire.

From where I live, Glenolden, it took me 2hrs 5 minutes to get there. The traffic was moderate to light but encountered rain and spotty heavy fog in the mountains. Average speed was 70. My mileage was 127.3 miles one way.

The proprietors suggested that a Saturday would be best for a group such as ours. Sunday is their busiest day of the week. Since this is open to the public, it's first come first serve.

Paper targets only on the rifle range but I did see some bowling pins and metal plates.

Inside the building, they have soda, water and candy avaliable to buy as well as ammo and other assorted gun related products.

All they ask is for us to let them know about a week in advance if we're coming and how many.

There is plenty of parking just past the main building. This range is very close to the road (RTE 314).

If anyone knows of another public gun range to compare this to, let us know.

Now, I'll turn it back over to our leader- Stryker_11A.

Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:20:36 PM EDT
Good recon Mr. C, I guess you didn't forget what they taught you in the Corps.

I IMed har4, Ops, piccolo, Spade, Dragracer_Ar and Ugh to find what cities they live in. If anyone didnt post on the thread, put whatever city you live in. My intent is to triangulate our locations and hopefully get somewhere in the middle thats easiest for everyone to come to.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:35:28 PM EDT
Reading,PA here...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:16:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 1:16:43 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]

Originally Posted By Stryker_11A:
post on the thread, put whatever city you live in. .



I live near Annapolis MD, but as you know I'll travel to anyplace!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:18:20 PM EDT
Ric, have Xtera, will travel.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:56:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 9:56:24 PM EDT by GiggleSmith]
Love To.

Can't drive too far, though. My job does that to me.

12 and 1/2 shifts! Three straight days of it. Staying awake can be a problem with my commute.

Edited to make a correction:

Make that 12 and 1/2 HOUR shifts!
I said this job does stuff to me!
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:27:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryker_11A:
Ric, have Xtera and guns, will travel.




Now that looks more accurate
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:12:49 AM EDT
I'm near Pittsburgh.

Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:20:04 PM EDT
Wow,
Tannersville is about 2hrs for me from York. Have gun will travel.
tom
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:09:57 AM EDT
I should check here more often. Sunset Hill is where I go to shoot. It is only an hour and twenty-five minute drive for me.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 12:55:16 PM EDT
GiggleSmith is checking with New Holland (Leola, PA 8 miles NE of Lancaster) and Mount Joy (14 miles NW of Lancaster) for availability. Hopefully he will have word back soon.

I think the ideal location for an all Pennsylvania get together would be Chambersburg, PA. It is exactly between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. Does anyone have any contacts at the Chambersburg Rod & Gun Club or any other ranges in the vacinity?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:51:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryker_11A:
GiggleSmith is checking with New Holland (Leola, PA 8 miles NE of Lancaster) and Mount Joy (14 miles NW of Lancaster) for availability. Hopefully he will have word back soon.



New Holland has DCM/CMP. Full Auto is Strictly Verboden. I forget when New Holland's DCM shoots are. They're held, I think, the second Saturday of month.

Mount Joy's CMP is Second Sunday in month. I asked and was told as they already Have DCM/CMP, there is no real need for a special outing just for us. That plus sometime earlier in the year, somebody from AR15.com already contacted the club – figure last Winter – and according the Club President, was somewhat cavalier about safety. They/he/she didn’t want Range Officers or Safety’s. And add to that there isn’t much room to shoot there, with their CMP monthly shoots, it wasn’t worth the extra effort.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 4:18:12 AM EDT
New Holland is very close to homes and Sunset Hill is not as close but there are some near by. Whether the residental people will complain or not with a lot of us there all at once should be taken into consideration.

Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:49:34 PM EDT
sunset hill is only 15 min from me but I have never shot there.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 9:01:05 PM EDT
Where is Sunset Hill? I think I saw the clubs Web Site once. If it’s in or around Strasburg, that’s it. If not, I’ve never heard of it.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:57:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Mount Joy's CMP is Second Sunday in month. I asked and was told as they already Have DCM/CMP, there is no real need for a special outing just for us. That plus sometime earlier in the year, somebody from AR15.com already contacted the club – figure last Winter – and according the Club President, was somewhat cavalier about safety. They/he/she didn’t want Range Officers or Safety’s.



I was the one who contacted him, and what he said is a bunch of bull. I was NEVER cavalier about safety, nor did I say that I didn't want range officers. He wanted me to bring them to the CMP shoot, but I didn't want go to a competition style shoot, but just a get together where we all meet, just have fun, and shoot casually. His email was very belligerent, he was freaking out that we weren't safe. The range may be a little small, but we could take turns, and there is nothing going on the other sundays when the CMP shoot is happening, so its doable if Tom would calm down.

Anyway, where ever its held, I'm it.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:17:12 PM EDT
a friend of mine just picked up 1500 acres in central pa. we've been talking about hosting some type of anything goes shoot. i'm still awaiting the topo maps and havent been there pyhsically, but sounds as if it could work.

what type of time frame are we on?
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 6:05:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By torstin:
a friend of mine just picked up 1500 acres in central pa. we've been talking about hosting some type of anything goes shoot. i'm still awaiting the topo maps and havent been there pyhsically, but sounds as if it could work.

what type of time frame are we on?



I guess its up to you and your friend, as far as time goes. My M16 just seems to shoot better on private property.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 10:23:35 PM EDT
Hmm...
Time frame ?

My M16 transfer only went pending on June 18th, so we need to put off the shoot until after it transfers into my paws.

(Just kidding of course)

I'll bring the subgun instead.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 10:26:27 AM EDT
I'm interested too.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 1:21:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Where is Sunset Hill? I think I saw the clubs Web Site once. If it’s in or around Strasburg, that’s it. If not, I’ve never heard of it.



It is about 8 miles from Stroudsburg.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 10:28:31 AM EDT
I was at Sunset Hill a couple of weeks ago. As Raptor22 said, it's not far from Stroudsburg. The range is a little close to the road but must be ok with the locals or it won't be still in business.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 4:31:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art:

I'll bring the subgun instead.



THE subgun? you have like a 100 of them.

ps. i'm in touch with howard. things may move along quickly. thanks.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 7:22:16 AM EDT
I'm still in for the range meet.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 9:26:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By libertyof76:

...His email was very belligerent, he was freaking out that we weren't safe. The range may be a little small, but we could take turns ... so its doable if Tom would calm down.



Sorry, but that's about what he said.

Now if you could post His E-Mail, we could maybe figure out something. Find out where he is in error and correct any misconceptions, and other goodies. Where he is in error, where YOU may be in error. I’d like to be able to find a way that would make everybody happy. Get everybody a chance to make a little bit of AR15 or M16 whoopee without CMP/DCM activities.

I’m planning a Full-Auto session at the end of the month. Come the next meeting I’ll be trying to make an Official Day of M16 Rock & Roll. Maybe my Mac as well. I’ll be trying for Saturday the 26, from 9 to 10 AM. I’ll be coming straight from work so I’m stuck with the time. Failing that date I’ll be trying for any Saturday in August.
It would be interesting if there would be somebody else with an M16 who would schedule a shoot right after me. Like from 10 to 11 AM on the 26th. Or whatever Saturday I manage to reserve.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 10:18:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Sorry, but that's about what he said.


I was just clearing it up.


Now if you could post His E-Mail, we could maybe figure out something.


here is what he sent me:


     Hello.
Mary Hohman forwarded your December 30th e-mail to me concerning shooting AR-15s. We have them as a regular part of our 30 cal. shoot. These are held the second  
Sunday of every month - Feb. through Nov. We would be glad to have your bunch join us. We shoot a 50 round course - 10 rounds off-hand , 10  rounds rapid sitting (60 seconds), 10 rounds rapid prone (70 seconds), and 20 rounds slow prone. We shoot 2 sighters in each position for a total of 58 rounds. You would also need an extra magazine as we load 2 and 8.
If  you wish to have this at a different time than when we regulary shoot we would have to get together and set up a course of fire and have at least 2 of our 30 cal. range officers present to run the match. Sundays would be the best day because the range is used heavily by our other members on Saturdays.
If you have any questions you can e-mail me or call me at 717-394-7209 or at home at 393-4214.          Thank you,  Tom Brooks             




and



Butch
Let me know exactlywhat you want to do and the type of rifles they will be shooting. There is no way this will happen without supervison and some degree of order. Our 30 cal. shoots have strick safety rules but are otherwise preety loose,maybe you should come and shoot with us Feb.9th at 8:30 AM. and see what you think.

You do have to shoot our 50 round cource to qualify to get the CPM M1 rifle. The cost is $5.00 to shoot and $10.00 for 58 round of club 30-06 ammo a total of $15.00, you must be a club member to purchase ammo. You can bring your own ammo if you want to shoot your AR.

The gear you need includes a sling, two mag's and something to lay on, the mag's are needed to shoot rapid fire we load 2 in one ,8 in the other, you have 60 seconds to shoot the 10 rounds.

This way of doing things is lot of fun and more importantly the safest way, we have not had any one get injuryed in over 30 years of our 30 ca. shoots and thats why we do things this way.

    Let me know.
   Tom Brooks



I sent him and email trying to clear things up, but he hasn't gotten back to me.



I’m planning a Full-Auto session at the end of the month.


Nice.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 2:59:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2003 3:02:23 AM EDT by GiggleSmith]
Okay, but what were YOUR E-Mails?

He is correct when he said “There is no way this will happen without supervision and some degree of order”. As Club President he is the Ultimately Responsible Person for safety. It’s one thing when a few Club members come to the range for either target practice or to zero in their guns. If they do something stupid they can loose their memberships. But when strangers come to the range, somebody Has to be held accountable for safety. Tom, or somebody else in Authority, is always on hand during the DCM shoots. And when I finally have my twice delayed Full-Auto shoot, there is going to be an escort of a Board Member while I shoot.

An ARFCOM shoot is almost guaranteed to have at one shooter who would like to go Full-Auto. And most of the straight Semi-Shooters are NOT going to be Host Club members. There has to be somebody – From the Club Board preferably – to make sure nobody does anything adverse. Let anything newsworthy be of the good time everybody had and not of something stupid.

Now as for much of the rest of what he kept talking about; The CPM shoots bring in revenue to the club. And an ARFCOM shoot would pretty much duplicate the DCM activities they already have. I don’t know what kind of targets you were thinking of. Or how the shooting was going to take place. Or anything else for that matter. Granted, such a shoot would bring in revenue. But how much? Just a little while back somebody tried to have a little Get Together in Hooters in York. Only two people showed up. What would happen if you scheduled a ARFCOM Shoot and only four or five people showed up? Such an occurrence would NOT be looked upon by the Club in a good light. Whoever schedules a Shoot has to think about such things. The revenues from a Shoot had better bring in multiple of hundreds of dollars to the Club. Otherwise it wouldn’t be worth it to close down the range for regular shooting. Hint: The revenues from the Thursday Night Trap program regularly bring in around $300 every month. Often more.

You also haven’t described what kind of shooting we would do. Or much of anything else for that matter. If an ARFCOM shoot is going to happen, we have to do something either in addition or beyond what the normal CMP/DCM shoot would bring in. Mount Joy isn’t Knob Creek. You cannot line up and just open fire on some targets. You have to have some kind of organization.

And you didn’t show YOUR E-Mails TO him. Because of that, I have to agree with him. You just didn’t mention anything extra to justify a Special Shoot. We have to offer something MORE!
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:11:10 PM EDT
I should check in here more often, hope I didn't miss an ARFCOM meeting at the range. A get together with the PA crew sounds like a great idea. Sunset Hill is where I usually shoot when I'm in PA, it's a nice range and they also have a decent selection of rentals. It will cost you $10 for the day but I think there is still a one time safety fee for first time visitors. It's not very much money but they usually have a R.O. run you through the rules and safety concerns first and then you have to demonstrate basic proficiency with your weapon by loading, firing one shot, and then clearing. Not a big deal, it only takes a few minutes and there are some exemptions like LEOS and possibly CCW holders. I'll keep checking in to see how things progress because I should be back in PA for a few days soon.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:13:50 PM EDT
I'm In. I am in West Chester, PA Have Durango, Guns, ammo, Will travel and carpool.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 11:41:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2003 7:37:26 PM EDT by libertyof76]

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Okay, but what were YOUR E-Mails?


I don't have them. I forgot to save them.


He is correct when he said “There is no way this will happen without supervision and some degree of order”. As Club President he is the Ultimately Responsible Person for safety. It’s one thing when a few Club members come to the range for either target practice or to zero in their guns. If they do something stupid they can loose their memberships. But when strangers come to the range, somebody Has to be held accountable for safety. Tom, or somebody else in Authority, is always on hand during the DCM shoots. And when I finally have my twice delayed Full-Auto shoot, there is going to be an escort of a Board Member while I shoot.

WHICH IS FINE!!!!! I stated this earlier. Neither you nor he apparently get this part. I NEVER said there shouldn't be anybody there to watch. The ONLY thing I disagreed with is that I didn't want to do a CMP style shoot.


Now as for much of the rest of what he kept talking about; The CPM shoots bring in revenue to the club.

Which is why I offered to have anybody who wants to come give $5 or so.


And an ARFCOM shoot would pretty much duplicate the DCM activities they already have.

Actually, no they wouldn't. Not the kind of shoot I was thinking of. I went to the CMP shoot last Sunday. It took TWO HOURS for four people to go. It is a VERY structured kind of shoot.The kind of shoot I want, and I suspect many other members want as well, is where we go to the range, talk, and just shoot. No structure, no 10 rounds single shot, just shooting at targets, safely of course.


I don’t know what kind of targets you were thinking of. Or how the shooting was going to take place. Or anything else for that matter.

Originally it was going to be just paper targets. But I would like a reactive target, so I was thinking of using some balloons. Its cheap, safe, and easy to clean up.
See above for the type of shooting.


Granted, such a shoot would bring in revenue. But how much?

Isn't some better than nothing?


Just a little while back somebody tried to have a little Get Together in Hooters in York. Only two people showed up. What would happen if you scheduled a ARFCOM Shoot and only four or five people showed up? Such an occurrence would NOT be looked upon by the Club in a good light.

Why? It just an informal get together. We must be thinking of have different styles of shoots. So four people showed up. There's $20 for the club. I really don't see the problem. Its just like any other day at the range. Sometimes I go and I'm the only person there!


The revenues from a Shoot had better bring in multiple of hundreds of dollars to the Club. Otherwise it wouldn’t be worth it to close down the range for regular shooting.

Who said anything about closing down the range? I wouldn't mind if we kept it open. If we had to, we could close it down for two hours or something.


You also haven’t described what kind of shooting we would do. Or much of anything else for that matter.

Nobody's asked. I assumed everybody knew that its just an informal shoot and get together. It really boggles my mind that this is such a big deal.


If an ARFCOM shoot is going to happen, we have to do something either in addition or beyond what the normal CMP/DCM shoot would bring in. Mount Joy isn’t Knob Creek. You cannot line up and just open fire on some targets. You have to have some kind of organization.

The only organization we need is when and where. The shoot is simple: See that balloon- shoot it.


And you didn’t show YOUR E-Mails TO him.


EDIT- Found them

The first one:

Hi. I'm currently a member of the Mount Joy Sportsmen's Association. I
would like to set up a small "get-together and shoot" for some members
of AR15.com at the outdoor range. We would just be shooting, nothing
else. I would expect no more than 10 people, but most likely just 5.
I'm still in the process of seeing who would be interested to come, so
I don't have an exact number at this time. The date is still be decided
too, but I'm a looking at January 25th or February 1st; both are
Saturdays. Would this be possible? What would I have to do to get this
to happen? Would I have to get some money from each them to do this?
Most of those who are interested live an hour or more away, so they are
not "locals", but I don't think they would have a problem donating some
money, say $5 each, toward the club. I of course will be responsible
for them. Thank you.

-

The Second One:

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:16:46 -0500
From: Matthew Butch <libertyof76@supernet.com>
To: Tomshomefront@aol.com

Well, we didn't really want to have a match-like event- more like an informal get together. AR's wouldn't be the only thing we'd be shooting either, although they are the main thing. Could this still happen?

But thanks anyway. BTW, would the .30 cal shoot qualify for the CMP's shooting requirement? I want to get a Garand from them, and I know the MJSA is an affiliated club with them.

-


Because of that, I have to agree with him. You just didn’t mention anything extra to justify a Special Shoot. We have to offer something MORE!

I didn't realize I had to. He never told me anything, or helped me in any way. All I freaking wanted to do was just meet up with some guys and have a fun day of shooting. Its SOOOOOOO simple, yet its being made so complex.

If I had a range, I'd be GLAD to get people to come and shoot. Not be anal about it. Its a good way to show off the club, and it might even get some new members.

Jeez, if I knew it was going to be a major catastrophe I would have thought twice about having some simple fun.

--

As for the CMP shoot: Holy hannah! Like I said, two hours for four people! We'd be there until midnight if we got 10 people from ar15.com. All I could thing was SHOOT ALREADY. Another thing that bothered me: we have these advanced weapons, with 30 round magazines, AND I HAVE TO LOAD ONE ROUND AT A TIME!!! Ok, ok, 8 rounds in rapid fire. But still, one round at a time in slow fire. Just let me load up a mag with 10 or 20 rounds, depending on the style, and let me shoot! I don't have a 19th century musket here! It was good otherwise, and I'll be going next month, but I might now come back with any hair!
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