This is my favorite site in the whole world and it pisses me off to see people shitting all over it and the people who run it.
Fucking grow up.
Ed is DA BOSS, Don Avila! Don't like it, leave it!
I have learned more, laughed harder, and shed a few more tears with some of you than I would have ever done without this site.
Some things we don't agree about, that is what makes this site great. Deliberate instigation and rule breaking will kill this wonderful place.
Discusing a subject is fine but what I have seen lately is like watching someone walk into my favorite bar and punch the bartender in the face and then expecting to get away with it.
You will get your ass TOSSED, and not in the good way.
I come here expecting comedy, comaradery, and information, not petty MY PUSSY HURTS BS!
That's a nice shade of brown on your nose there, junior.
Yup! He's so in love with the site that he's not a paid member!
"Don't Like it?? Start your own forum!!"
If I recall correctly...they did just that!
F U guys! I WAS until I let it run out...
I'm not AGREEING with ED, I'm just stating WHAT YOU CAN DO if you don't.
I hardly doubt that is fair, Ed.
Didn't you go to "their" site to piece together a commentary made by a former member to bring here to prove a point that was dropped long ago?
I'm not about to get into a pissing contest with you or anyone here, but one leads by the examples they set.
YOU set the precedence on YOUR site. YOU make the rules, and YOU condone and condemn as you feel necessary. I have no sides here, and I am not going to scream nonsense for a banned word or any such thing. But I do feel that an example is just that - an example.
How can I expect my employees to do a certain level of work if I cut corners? Hell, Ed, you were AB... If your squad leader dropped you for 50 but couldn't pass his PT test, how would you feel bro? Would it be fair to schedule a jump if you never intended to strap the saddle on?
That's kind of how we feel.
I agree with the OP's sentiment that if you don't like the site and the rules you can leave. But I also agree that the OWNER of the site should treat his or her members as they would want to be treated. You know many people here like you, myself included. You yourself said in an IM to me that one of your priorities the next trip to AZ was to meet me over some beers, steaks, and great conversation. And, to be honest, I am totally looking forward to it! Um, you're buying, right?
But, as a friend (which I consider myself to be with the hopes the sentiment is mutual) you yourself began this recent shitstorm. Anyone of us would have been banned for it. Then you shut down the conversation with the magic button once some people began interjecting their thoughts. You're hearing, Ed, but you're not LISTENING.
You don't want Tonk used on your site? OK, no big deal, we'll all not use the word in regards to Hispanics or illegal immigrants. No one here, then or now, has tried to convince you otherwise.
What has been purported is that you don't necesarilly understand the meaning. If there is one racist, ban him, no questions asked. I abhor racists.
I also abhor being insulted as a Christian with pictures of Jesus flipping the finger, carrying a .50 rather than a cross, or photoshopped into a picture saying, "Jesus can't even stand you."
There DOES exist a double standard. When I brought it to the TBK1's attention (who, by the way, I think is a hell of a nice guy and would be proud to call a friend) he blew me off and everyone that sided with me in the team forum. You just can't blow people off and then demand coherence to standards or respect. As adults, we expect certain behavior from our peers and elders (who are supposed to be leading the way through example) and speak up when that level of TRUST is violated.
Personally, and I speak only for myself, I think the whole pissing contest is WAY out of hand. If you don't want the word used on your site, it's cool with me. I can articulate no problem using other mediums and differing terminology. Those that cannot, like AZCopWannabe said, hey... Don't let the door hit ya where the Godd Lord split ya and my dog bit ya.
But you stirred this recent pot - not anyone here. For that, in my humble opinion, I think an apology is in order. At least.
Regardless, I am looking forward to that beer.
There you have my general observations, unrequested and probably not appreciated in the slightest, but out anyway.
Californians live in a state known to cater to homosexual individuals. Is typing fag verbotten from a CA member?
We talk like that all the time here. It is what makes us part of a family, rather than a keyboard-associated friendship. We know what everyone means.
And explain how posting your own personal "my pussy hurts" post is helping any?
You're a troll stirring the pot on something that was dead and buried and would have stayed that way if it wasn't for Ed's little fubar and your wonderfully mature post. You said "Fucking grow up"? Indeed, I agree. You should. And if you can't manage maturity you should strive for silence.
Everyone needs to remember what our Momma's said, "If you don't have sometihng nice to say, don't say anything". That includes staff and it includes cutting and pasting messages from one board to another in an attempt to incite a riot.
Mike, you know damn well I never said the pictures should be banned. Damn well. I never ONCE tried to make you out to be a bad guy, and even said I respected you. What I DID claim was a double standard of a sorts.
See, this is the problem my firend! y'all are so busy dealing with these asshat trolls on the site and the fucking whiny pussies that go to team demanding a thread be closed that you don't (or have no time to) hear us out that are making sense.
If you claim "X class of people are hurt with deragatory remarks" then a double standard exists when Y class of people refer to offensive material and nothing is done about it.
I'm not saying you did anything wrong, bro. And I am completely against banning things like "Jesus H Christ on crutches." But what signal gets sent when ONE class is protected from insult and the other is ignored? If Tonk is a word that is ethically demeaning, what does taking the Lord's name in vain mean to Christians? Or the constant bashing that occurs when someone calls a Christian an "idiot who believes their shit stinks better than anyone else's" ? What about the one little pussy AZ member that said they were going to come over here and kick my ass to prove God wouldn't take care of me?
And you did ignore me, in a round about way, and many people saw it. And many people told you to address my concerns, You went away, content that your 4 sentences were satisfactory. See, a debate is never satisfied until both parties have come to an agreement to disagree, or one party backs out. You backed out, and as the instigator I was not willing to accept that as a final answer. Neither were many. Only you saw it as a completion.
If this thread doesn't last long, it will be because certain proclaimed adults haven't the audacity to remain in the world's place of sometimes being in the wrong.
I see that no one has addressed richard's comments about the double-standard. It's not okay to use the "tonk" word in a derogatory manner, but it's fine to use "fag" or to use something else that's derogatory to Christians.
I'm going to address you post in its entirety, but let's talk about the very last statement you made for now - at least until I get my thoughts together.
ED Sr. : "Now,lets see who is bringing the topic that is supposedly dead back!"
I know you are not speaking of me in this, right? Because this is the first time I have been involved in the petty arguments between staff and members. If you disagree, show me ONCE, just ONCE in my postings here I took a single side.
Personally, I am insulted that y'all can carry forward your kinipshit fits and not look at it like, "Well, Richard has never once mentioned anything, but now he does, so perhaps there is something in his words..."
I have never used the word TONK in a deragatory meaning on this site, nor do I intend to. It is the plain example of Christians being the outcast here compared to another class of people that are not even citizens of this country that chaffs my ass.
In case anyone forgot, the constitution is BASED on a Christian principle. I'm not asking anyone to stop using the Lord's name in vain, and I am not asking that you be converted.
What I am saying, FOR THE 2nd TIME, is that leadership is an example, not a position through concept. Yes, this is your site, and you can do whatever you want - and I will not violate the COC because I love this place. But I will voice my opinion, and I can see both sides.
Again, I'll answer the rest of your post as a rebuttal a little later. I still respect you and Mike, but you guys aren't very good at knowing who is talking what at the peace table. Perhaps a little more listening and a little less defending? Every man can, and is, wrong at some time.
For now, I need to grab the posts Mike asked me for.
I can not find either thread with search OR archive. One was "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" when a member was banned. It was posted in Team. The other was also posted in team, titled "WW banned?" meaning Winston Wolf when he got the axe for sticking up for that member. Neither thread, regardless of how I type them, show up on any search.
Besides, I already said I harbor nothing against you. I don't blame you or condone you, just believe that your answers were misleading, abrupt, and borderline rude for the effort I put into my stance. Since I cannot find the threads, I cannot put my current contentions into any meaningful outline. I can tell you that you, as a mod, said you have never witnessed what I referred to, and you got called on your "lack of memory" by both me and a number of others you also blew off.
You want to let this issue die, Mike? Try not thinking that the majority of us are assholes out to get you and retrieve your every word that is insinuated in any manner we see fit. I'm actually on your side here, but your comprehension and experience tells you differently. Anyone that knows me will tell you I am the nicest, most non-confrontational guy on the planet. I just want to enjoy life, which I get very few moments of - arguing with you (or Ed, or anyone) is NOT my idea of enjoyment.
If I brought a subject up, it is because I had something meaningful to add. You don't know me better than that by now?
I'd love for both of those threads to be accessable, but someone, somewhere has locked the possibility of me finding them to prove to you what I am saying. I can't prove what has been changed. I would if I could. And you do know that I tried the search and archive, yes?
Now, on a side note, I'll still BBQ you the best damn steak you've ever had, go skydiving with you, get drunk, and you can even have my sister for a night (hey, she's cute!). For that matter, pop Camy in the ass on my couch. I'm not here to make enemies, and I thought you had a MUCH higher regard for me than you allude to.
You're beginning to sound like that freak Eric that owns Glock Talk that I am currently suing. Always know the species of Phiranna you're tickling, yes? LOL! <<<<<< That means I am not directing anything at you or this site.
If I start a thread on double standards, are you going to get butt hurt and lock it, or will you act the man and respond? No matter what, we'll all walk away friends, and that is my promise to you. The beer, steak, and
I just don't want to see the maelstrom of shit here again, but I do want my concerns addressed. Simple request.
Can you find those threads in the search? Am I doing something wrong?
There ya go, sir, fixed your ambivialnce of the point at hand!
I would just like to point out that while Ed sr may think I have an "Agenda" about the AZHTF. I almost never play in these silly threads. Hell, I seldom even visit this AZHTF.
I like pie.
Did I miss a meltdown?
THE LORD OF PAGE 2 DEMANDS A HALT TO THIS MELTDOWN!
edited to add the law set by yours truly
Someone on the intarweb doesn't do things the way I want, so I am gonna whine like a .
Nothing personal, just calling it the way I see it.
Don't go away mad, just go away.
This threads needs more troll icons.
I too have addressed the religious issues with staff (Mike in particular) and I too was ignored. It's poinless Richard. It is unfortunate and sad that using a derogatory word for a middle easterner can get your account locked, but taking our Lord's name in vain and posting derogatory and insulting pictures gets a free pass by staff here. I have also seen pictures of animal abuse and reported it. It was a pic of some guy slamming a cat on the ground by its tail. That may be funny to some, but to me, an animal abuser is almost as bad as a child molester. It is written in the CoC that stuff like that and religious matter shall not be posted, but it is and it's ignored.
And Ed, if one of us had gone to the other site and brought back the same thing you did to make the same point you did, we would have been banned for trolling or disturbing the peace of this site and YOU KNOW IT! Regardless if it was positive or not.
The only reason I have held my tongue on the banned word issue is because I have life long friends here and don't want to get banned for something so immature, assenine, and stupid. I refuse to get sucked into the crap from either end of the spectrum. But don't think for a minute I like what has happened. This is why I don't renew my membership.
It would give me no pause to divert attention - of that you may rest assured. Any GD thread would require invistigative skills to trace to the original point.
Another member here happened to post his thoughts, which this thread has evolved into. It is what it is. I neither created it nor will I be the deciding factor in it... And the fact you criticize me over criticizing you shows a complete lack of comprehension for what I was saying - probably because you breezed through my words, looking for similies that represented my silence as a conseses generalized for the AZ member grouping.
See, I don't have the infamous LOCK button, sir. I cannot bring up something and then lock it as "my opinion" when others disagree. You and TBK1 asked for clarification of my stance, albeit as an innuendo, and I am trying to provide just that.
But let us address you last point for only a moment. Did I or did I not say that those who would not let it go deserve what they get? Was it not, and has it not been, me that constantly and, more importantly, CONSISTENTLY, demands that the damn subject be dropped? Was I not "in before the lock" with my condemnation of those pushing the issue with terms that resembled the use of the word (EG: Tonka truck, etc.) asking them to please just let it go?
And yet you, as the owner of this site with all your posting research powers, cannot reach a conclusion that I was the one of the FEW supporting you in the banning of the word? Where, aside from this one instance, have you seen me jump into your maelstrom with members here? Never... And I say that with the utmost confidence. Show me where I am mistaken, and I will confer a public and humble apology.
No one--LEAST of all me--is advocating the word Tonk is acceptable on your site! You generalize with the use of "some" but you address your comments to me? When in hell and high water have I EVER been in the middle of your shitstorm with the AZHTF? Those antics are, to me, simply that: antics. And, until this time, nothing I chose to be a part of - mostly because I sided with you.
But I do not this one time. That is unacceptable? I feel you instigated a level of animosity, and rather than formulate your thoughts coherently and partake in the discussion, you avoid it with tangents? That is an acceptable level of behavior to a fellow veteran of a foreign war that earned both his Blue rope and turkey and chicken wings? You point the finger at me for instigating the debate, yet was it not you that just last week brought it up and the locked the thread and dissolved it? I don't have that magic button.
But this is now an AZ thing? So I am, once again, lumped into a category awaiting a label? "Hey, if some are assholes, they are all..." That is slippery slope logically, and bullshit realistically. Name me ONCE I have used the term on your site, or any other for that matter, to describe any Hispanic, here legally or not. You can't. Therefore, your point is moot. I am not speaking for the "some" posters, I am merely stating MY personal observations and thoughts. Can I still do that?
Hell, Ed, you and Mike won't even talk to me. "Richard, this is what I say, and your opinion matters for shit..." That is what I am hearing, and everyone else is hearing. Whether that is what you are saying or not is irrelevant - you always conform to the target audience.
Explain to you what, Ed? That no other forum uses the Tonk term in its deragatory state? I can't argue that. There were SOME (your words and, as such, concurance) here that pushed the issue. Crap, I would have hit the ban button faster than y'all did. But they are gone. And I don't disagree with that - I hate racists, and I do not tolerate intolerance
But YOU brought it back here, not any one of us.
Ed says: "I want this term gone!"
The AZHTF majority says: "OK."
The AZHTF minority says: "Why?"
4 months later, Ed says: "See, told you so!"
And yet you want us to be adults playing in the grade school sandbox where issues are brought up months after they occurred? Man, I have enough problems with Camy right now... And plenty of them. I don't need a fellow vet acting the female part re-hashing shit let go several months ago. If some violated that last wee, ban them! Hell, I am all for banning racisst ignorant shitstains.
But "take it to email" doesn't apply to you or staff?
You tried to prove a point concerning the use of the word, and you did. You showed that we all pay a peneance for one known racist, and when we rationalize and discuss, we get locked.
Hundreds of AZHTF folks, but we are judges in the minority of the per capita. Nice.
I really do like you, Ed, and have no fear of saying so. And I love this site - probably the best on the planet! But if you want a debate with me, free my access to the search and let's go to the pit and follow your rules where this belongs. Or are you immune to that because you make the rules?
I specifically asked you NOT to make this into a pissing contest. But let's speak facts. You are not going to drag my name through fecal matter with innuendoes of misconduct or, worse, accusations of personal double standards.
I've been here for a while, and I love this place. I stated my case, and you stated yours. In order to preserve my account, let's head to the pit and get the consensus, OK? Except you cannot be banned, and the lackys are there. Damn, now I don't know what to do - I lose either way.
If you want to talk about this over a beer, or on the phone, I am a PM away and will reverse the charges so I pay for the phone call. That's the best I can do without giving y'all a substantative reason for locking my account, even though I have tried to be civil, respectful, and polite. At least I know my integrity is up to par by trying to work this out. I really do like you, Ed, and want this RESOLVED, not handled.
Since you never elaborated on my other post, I will assume that to mean friends was too strong for your taste - I'm cool with that, as I am not here to make friends. So, I will sign this reply as:
(Really, all I want is resolution. Do we have to take this to the pit where it belongs as it stands? Let's not go there, sir, please.)
All this over a WORD.
Sticks and stones.
That's some of the funniest stuff I've ever read.
The double standard is like a neon sign in this thread, but yet it's denied.
Shit, you and Ed have both trolled my posts numerous times calling me a fool, an idiot, a racist and what not for simply taking a staunch anti-illegal alien stance...and have created a following of others that think they need to do the same.
Fuck it, It's Ed's site and it's his and your way or no way so we can like it or leave obviously. I can accept that. If I started my own site I guess I could make my own rules however I saw fit too...fair or not.
You know, we're all actually on the same team. We all seem to forget that a lot.
We have bigger issues to face as a group then Tonk, the AZ forum or whatever.
And many are Christians that consider the 10 Commandments to be Holy and the Word of God. So, when it talks about graven images and taking the Lord's Name in vain, we get offended. Why is it ok to take the Lord's Name in vain but not right to use the word ***head? Or post pictures of Jesus doing various things, but several members were told to remove his avatar of mohammed with the bomb on his head from the Danish newspaper?
You see Mike, the 1st rule in the CoC says:
1.) Posting derogatory comments of a racial, religious, or sexual nature.
Why not enforce it for all?
And, as far as the cat picture, I had no idea it was already dead. Regardless though, this is what I was talking about when I said I was "ignored". I IM'd you months ago when all this other crap was going on and I specifically mentioned the religion thing and you failed to answer any part of it. So, you blew it off as either irrelivant or just a joke like you just did the cat picture with me.
Nope, no sale.
If you want to ban every word that offends someone then you might as well shut down the site because we would be left with a few nouns, a verb if we're lucky and a couple of contractions.
Or is it words that just offend some ?? and who decides whats offensive ??
It's a slippery slope.
Oops, better clarify...........Slope meaning a grade, incline or hill not an asian slur.
It's just a word and words mean things but they can't injure you physically and can only harm you mentally if you are unable to handle your own emotions.
I know these words will fall upon deaf ears but there's always hope.
I am offended by the Mormon bashing threads.
I am sure there are others as well.
I never said you or anyone else wanted to ban every word....did I ??
I said if you wish to remove all the words that offend someone you wouldn't be left with many.
Get it ?
As for respect of others.....what about respecting others wishes regarding words that offend them ?
Why is respect not afforded to them ?
I also asked who decides whats offensive ?
As for you not wanting to do anything about certain words, that proves my point. Only certain words that offend certain people or groups are banned. Others who find certain words offenseive.....tough shit.
Lighten up Mike.
Well said. It really is hard to convey the right message when typing on a screen. Emotions and intentions are easily misinterpreted.
Too bad we can't have a ARFCOM round table in person held every so often to meet and help each other truly understand what each of us are saying.
Good night all.