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Page Hometown » Ohio
Posted: 2/22/2006 7:39:53 PM EDT
Which is easier for getting NFA items? I want to turn my SEBR into a suppressed SBR, plus get a suppressor for my p228 and p22. Anyhoo, has anyone tried going any of these routes? I guess I could just go through all of the regular paperwork, but I've heard that this may be an easier way to go...
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:27:32 AM EDT
I would try as an individual first. If you meet resistance from your CLEO, then think about forming a LLC if you end up knocking on closed doors.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:07:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 8:10:29 AM EDT by Pudwak]
I've been thinking of going the LLC route for a can as well.But I live on the edge of franklin county in a comunity with no local police. My neighbor told me that the Fairfield Co. Sheriff has a contract to police the area. Can I get my sign off from fairfield? (sorry fo the hijack)
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:29:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 8:32:34 AM EDT by ArmdCtzn]
Going "corporate" is not really easier, all things considered.
If you can get a CLEO signature, I'd go that route.
You can get a signature from several sources, as long as they have jurisdiction where you live.
For instance, I live in a county and a township. So I can go to the county sheriff or the township chief. There are others qualified to sign also. But try your most local CLEO first.
I would only go corporate if you hit a brick wall with the sign-off.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:55:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdCtzn:
Going "corporate" is not really easier, all things considered.
If you can get a CLEO signature, I'd go that route.
You can get a signature from several sources, as long as they have jurisdiction where you live.
For instance, I live in a county and a township. So I can go to the county sheriff or the township chief. There are others qualified to sign also. But try your most local CLEO first.
I would only go corporate if you hit a brick wall with the sign-off.



Why do you say it's not easier? Personally I think it's been quite easy, and I should get my FNC 2-4 weeks after I send in my Form 4. Plus, if the government ever decides to restrict private ownership of NFA any more, like they did in Canada, having it in an LLC might just be the one thing that allows you to keep it and transfer it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:53:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fallschirmjager:

Originally Posted By ArmdCtzn:
Going "corporate" is not really easier, all things considered.
If you can get a CLEO signature, I'd go that route.
You can get a signature from several sources, as long as they have jurisdiction where you live.
For instance, I live in a county and a township. So I can go to the county sheriff or the township chief. There are others qualified to sign also. But try your most local CLEO first.
I would only go corporate if you hit a brick wall with the sign-off.



Why do you say it's not easier? Personally I think it's been quite easy, and I should get my FNC 2-4 weeks after I send in my Form 4. Plus, if the government ever decides to restrict private ownership of NFA any more, like they did in Canada, having it in an LLC might just be the one thing that allows you to keep it and transfer it.



Is it really all that easier?

Individual Form 4 - You fill it out, take it to get signed, do the prints while you're there, tape a photo to it and send it off

Corporate Form 4 - You fill it out, enclose a copy of your articles of incorporation, and send it in

That part is easier, BUT, you have to establish and maintain the corporation. You have to file a return every year. You have to pay the minimum payment, I think it's $50 if I remember correctly. Not a big deal, but stuff you have to remember to do every year. An individual transfer is over when it's over.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:51:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdCtzn:
Is it really all that easier?

Individual Form 4 - You fill it out, take it to get signed, do the prints while you're there, tape a photo to it and send it off

Corporate Form 4 - You fill it out, enclose a copy of your articles of incorporation, and send it in

That part is easier, BUT, you have to establish and maintain the corporation. You have to file a return every year. You have to pay the minimum payment, I think it's $50 if I remember correctly. Not a big deal, but stuff you have to remember to do every year. An individual transfer is over when it's over.



If I do file a return, it's one with all zeros, and you don't have to pay any minimum payment. And so far as establishing and maintaining the LLC, all you do is fill out and print off a form from the states website, mail it in with $125, and in less than two weeks you have an LLC, with no maintenance involved, as you can choose to have its life be perpetual. This is all pertaining to Ohio of course.

BTW, if you go the LLC route, you can designate other people as "members" of the LLC, and thereby give them the legal right to have access to your NFA item, which individual ownership does not. And again, if the Feds decided to ban the transfer of these items to individuals, you could either sell your LLC and it's assets (NFA items ) to someone, or if you die your spouse/children/others would still have access to it provided they're members of the LLC.

Did I mention you get the NFA item in weeks as opposed to months? That alone is worth $125...
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 4:45:22 AM EDT
Certainly, an individual transfer is the best way, and should be your first choice. I live in a city whose Police Chief wouldn't even return my phone calls. I even tried to stop in to talk to someone, and was met with a very rude closed door. The Franklin County Sheriff is known to refuse to sign, and the OSP is out of the question. The only other option I had was to try and find a judge or DA that would sign... I decided to form an LLC.

LLCs in Ohio are a one-time $125 cost to set up. No other annual filing requirements except for income taxes. Even then, it can be all zeros. Mine is a single member LLC, so I attach a Schedule "c" to my personal 1040 with all zeros. Takes all of 5 minutes each year.

My city has a new chief (a bout 6 months ago), so I may try to approach him and see if he is agreeable if I do any more NFA stuff.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 4:59:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fallschirmjager:





If I do file a return, it's one with all zeros, and you don't have to pay any minimum payment. And so far as establishing and maintaining the LLC, all you do is fill out and print off a form from the states website, mail it in with $125, and in less than two weeks you have an LLC, with no maintenance involved, as you can choose to have its life be perpetual. This is all pertaining to Ohio of course.

BTW, if you go the LLC route, you can designate other people as "members" of the LLC, and thereby give them the legal right to have access to your NFA item, which individual ownership does not. And again, if the Feds decided to ban the transfer of these items to individuals, you could either sell your LLC and it's assets (NFA items ) to someone, or if you die your spouse/children/others would still have access to it provided they're members of the LLC.

Did I mention you get the NFA item in weeks as opposed to months? That alone is worth $125...



Well, now you're going to make me dig up all my paperwork and look. I am almost positive that each year I have to pay $50 to Ohio. I could be wrong. I just did all this, too, but I don't remember. I know I have to make some kind of payment. We may be talking about two different things, too. I don't think mine is an LLC.
But even without the payment, you still have to file state and federal tax forms each year, which is my main point. Something you don't have to do with an individual transfer. That would kinda make a corporate transfer less "easy", right?

It is not true that a corporate transfer guarantees a quicker turn around. I had a corporate transfer take almost a year. I have had individual transfers go much, much quicker. A friend had an individual transfer take about three weeks recently. I think individual transfers are generally pretty quick now with NFA in WVA. I'd agree that generally a corporate transfer is going to be quicker, but it is certainly not guaranteed. I also think that with the "new" NFA the time thing is much less of an issue than it used to be. I wouldn't go corporate just hoping to speed things up.

The original question was "which is easier, corporate or individual?" I still think that in many ways an individual transfer is easier, and if not easier they are at least close enough to require some thought about all the factors involved. I don't think the answer to his question is simply "corporate".



Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:46:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 5:46:55 AM EDT by Red-Leg]
I'd definitely try going the individual route first. With incorporating, if you dissolve the company, you must get rid of the toys, as they belong to the corp, not to the individual owning/running said corporation.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:13:41 AM EDT
Has anyone tried to form a trust for NFA stuff in Ohio yet? I am just getting into NFA myself and am going to try indvidual but if there is too much screwing around I might try the trust route.

Dave
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 12:29:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdCtzn and Fallschirmjager:


Sounds like you guys are looking at it from two sides of the same coin...

One from the LLC and the other from an S-Corp...I know nothing about NFA stuff, since I own none and what I do know I have gleamed from chats with you guys.

An LLC is relatively hassle free in comparison to an S-Corp and both are much more simple than a C-Corp.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:13:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdCtzn:
The original question was "which is easier, corporate or individual?" I still think that in many ways an individual transfer is easier, and if not easier they are at least close enough to require some thought about all the factors involved. I don't think the answer to his question is simply "corporate".



While that may have been the original question, I don't think there's anything wrong with expanding upon the benefits of individual vs. corporate ownership. I also don't think anything that has been posted is simply saying "corporate" is the way to go without given good examples why. But if we're worried the original question is not being addressed properly, I'll try and remedy that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using the LLC for your transfer is indeed easier. You fill out an online form and mail it in with $125 and you have your LLC, which you can use in any future NFA purchases, and that takes about a week. You don't have to get any sign off, explain yourself, whatever as to what NFA device you want now or in the future. I think that's MUCH easier.

For example, in my own transfer, in the time it has taken for the ATF to approve the form 3 transfer to Cousino's Firearms from the selling dealer, I have gotten my LLC done. I tried to called my local sheriff for a week before the secretary finally said I would need to drop the form 4 off and then he'd talk to me about getting signoff. Now I don't know about you, but if I'm dropping $7K on something, I don't want someone to tell me they'll have to talk to me about signing off on my ownership on how they feel about it. In the sheriffs defense, I've been told he generally signs off on full auto NFA, but you tell me if that sounds EASIER than filling out a form and sending it in?

ADDITIONALLY, I think by and large LLC is the way to go in Ohio, for the following reasons:

1) It's faster; From everyone I've spoken to, dealers and individuals, it's much faster for the transfer to the tune of weeks, not months. This thread is the first time I've ever heard of it taking longer than an individual transfer.

2) The LLC can have a perpetual life; You can set your LLC up to never expire by simply not putting in an expiration date, so you don't have to worry about the LLC dissolving. And again, you can use it for every subsequent NFA transfer you do.

3) Corporate vs. Individual protection; Again, in Canada, this was the one thing that allowed private citizens to still "own" and "sell" machineguns when they banned the transfer of existing ones to individuals.

4) Access to the NFA item; Any designated member of your LLC has legal access to the NFA item, as opposed to individual ownership, where you are legally the only person who should have access to the item.

The only downsides to an LLC are:

1) Initial cost; It's $125 extra on that first NFA purchase.

2) Subsequent cost; If you ever do decide to transfer the NFA items to yourself, it's the $200 tax again for EACH item.

3) You MAY have to attach an additional form with your taxes once a year, with all zeros on it. But, as the tax process is already a hassle, I don't see that being the big deal people seem to make it out to be.
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