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Posted: 3/29/2005 2:18:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2005 2:31:14 PM EDT by von_landstuhl]
I'm in Columbus and I'm planning on building an M4-style rifle. I'm going through the process listed in the "Full Auto" forum on getting an SBR tax stamp. My first step was to contact the six CLEOs listed on the ATF Form 1 to see if they'll sign the form. If there's any interest in my results, I'll update this thread to let you all know how it goes.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 2:18:57 PM EDT
I don't think you should ask. Just show up with it like it's no big deal. If you act like it's a big deal they might be more inclined to make it one.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 2:34:12 PM EDT
I need documentaion of their refusal so the ATF can provide "another person whose certifcation is acceptable to the Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives."
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 3:11:41 PM EDT
I'm in columbus also, please update us on your progress.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 3:24:55 PM EDT
I thought Columbus passed another ban, or was working on one. Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 3:38:54 PM EDT
i am interested in knowing if anyone will sign off. i am gonna do a corp mg transfer as soon as the gun get to my dealer.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 3:42:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
I thought Columbus passed another ban, or was working on one. Good luck.



They're working on one. Hopefully when it's enacted there will be a grandfather clause. If not , I'll build one that doesn't meet their definition of "assault weapon."
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 3:43:02 PM EDT
you don't need a signoff on a corporate transfer.


Originally Posted By twckxbzd:
i am interested in knowing if anyone will sign off. i am gonna do a corp mg transfer as soon as the gun get to my dealer.

Link Posted: 3/29/2005 3:51:01 PM EDT
On Saturday, I mailed certified letters (including a blank copy of the ATF Form 1 and a SASE) to:

Columbus Division of Police
James G. Jackson

Columbus City Attorney
Richard C Pfeiffer, Jr

Franklin County Sheriff
Jim Karnes

Franklin County Prosecutor
Ron O'Brien

Ohio Attorney General
Jim Petro

Ohio State Highway Patrol
Paul D. McClellan

All but the letter to McClellan have been delivered as of today.

Today I got this back from Sheriff Karnes, "Since you are in the City of Columbus, this request must be submitted to James G. Jackson, Chief of Police, Columbus Police Department. Furthermore, as Sheriff of Franklin County, it is at my discretion to sign Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) Forms. I have elected not to make it policy for this administration."
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 4:34:37 PM EDT
So you're saying that the ATF will work with you to find an alternative person to sign?
That's certainly interesting news.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 6:03:29 PM EDT
The "FAQ ON NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT WEAPONS" by James O. Bardwell says, "Copy the refusal letters, and send the copies to the NFA Branch of ATF. Some CLEO's may refuse to even provide a response in writing. Just indicating that the CLEO refused to sign, and also refused to provide a written response, should be sufficient. Ask ATF to designate other persons whose signature would be acceptable, as the ones listed in the regulation would not sign. They are required to do this by the same regulation, it is the 'safety valve' for when none of the designated persons will sign. ATF will almost certainly say that they will accept the certification of a state judge who has jurisdiction over where you live (same as the chief, D.A. and sheriff in step 1, they have to have jurisdiction over where you live, although the regulation doesn't say that, just the Form 4) and who is a judge of a court of general jurisdiction, that is a trial court that can (by law) hear any civil or criminal case. No limit as to dollar amount in civil cases, or type of crime in criminal cases. No small claims court or traffic court type judges, in other words."
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 7:13:10 PM EDT
i would rather do a private transfer but i dont feel like getting annoyed. iread that faq and the only thing that bothered me was there was no clear line on when you exhuasted all the options. good luck with the letters and keep us updated.
Link Posted: 3/29/2005 8:36:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2005 8:37:17 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]
Yeah, if you do it, and name the judge, that judge will be in "heap big trouble" with his paperwork log jam that we will give him.
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 2:50:05 PM EDT
Received the following from Chief Jackson's office today:

"As policy, Chief Jackson does not sign the ATF form referenced in your letter."

Two down, four to go.
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 2:51:17 PM EDT
Why don't you just incorporate and forget about the whole thing?
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 3:14:41 PM EDT
That's my last resort. There are too many issues with corporate ownership that I don't want to deal with if I don't have to, even if this route takes more time in the long run:

- Annual tax paperwork
- I want it to be my property
- Potential issues leaving it to my heirs upon my death
- I'm annoyed that local CLEOs think the ATF Form 1 is a permission slip
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 6:45:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2005 6:45:30 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]
I am really interested in your project.
It is great that the ATF understands and acknowledges not all LEO's will sign.
Good luck, and keep us updated.
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 8:35:58 AM EDT
I applaud your efforts, but I see a corporation in your future.
We have the same problem in SW Ohio with CLEOs thinking they can make laws.
It's like living in a bananna republic, the chief can create gun bans of his own.
Corporate transfers are so much quicker and easier anyway.
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 9:22:29 AM EDT
I think you are missing his point.
He is attempting to force acceptance of a signature from someone other than CLEO.
From what he is saying, it sounds like there is an option for the ATF to accept alternate signatures, such as judges in the county.
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 11:37:54 AM EDT
No, I get his point. That is why I said that I applaud his efforts.
ATF will accept a signature by a judge that can sit on felony trials,
or the prosecutor, in the jurisdiction where he lives. There are other
acceptable signatures, there's no "forcing ATF to accept". They list
them in the regs. The problem is that in practice if a county is not
allowing signatures they all seem to stick together. I say good luck to
him, but if he does find a willing signer one of the first things they're going
to say is "keep this to yourself." If he only plans on the one transfer, he
can feel free to let others know, but if he has plans for any more, then
we'll never know if he was successful or not. That is, until we see him
at a shoot with a new FA toy!
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 2:41:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdCtzn:
The problem is that in practice if a county is not allowing signatures they all seem to stick together.



This is correct. I received this e-mail from a lawyer-friend that tried to find a sympathetic CLEO for me, "Regarding the City Prosecutor's policy of signing off on the BATF form, my friend advised their office has a policy (presently unwritten, but a policy nonetheless) of not signing off on any such requests as they (unsuprisingly) don't wish to undercut the County Sheriff and CPD policies. While my friend only works for the City Prosecutor, not the County (Ron O' Brien), I can GUARANTEE you that if the County Sheriff, C.P.D. and City Prosecutor refuse to sign off on any BATF requests, the County Prosecutor isn't going to sign any either."
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 3:03:15 PM EDT
when you get your sbr done you have to send everyone that would not sight off a letter explaning how you got it despite thier efforts.
good luck
Link Posted: 4/2/2005 9:55:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twckxbzd:
when you get your sbr done you have to send everyone that would not sight off a letter explaning how you got it despite thier efforts.
good luck



While this would give you some "personal" vindication, I don't think it is in "our" best interest to rub their face into another person signing or going the Corp/LLC route, as they are as vindictive as the next guy and will cause grief to the CLEO who signed or possibly look into closing or at least making a stink about the Corp/LLC route.

Just my .02

Scott
Cousino's Firearms
Link Posted: 4/2/2005 3:06:19 PM EDT
I heard back from Colonel Paul McClellan of the State Highway Patrol today:

"After reviewing your letter of request, we feel the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation in London, Ohio should certify your application to make a firearm. The Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation maintains all criminal record files for the state."

Now I have to write back and find out if the BoCI&I is a subordinate organization of the State Highway Patrol and if the head of the bureau has "specific delegated authority to sign on behalf of the" CLEO, as stated on the ATF Form 1.

If not, I have to ask Colonel McClellan if he'll sign upon a successful background check from the BoCI&I.
Link Posted: 4/2/2005 4:20:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:
Now I have to write back and find out if the BoCI&I is a subordinate organization of the State Highway Patrol and if the head of the bureau has "specific delegated authority to sign on behalf of the" CLEO, as stated on the ATF Form 1.



Shit. The BCI is subordinate to Ohio Attorney General Jim Petro. Their website is at http://www.ag.state.oh.us/sections/bci.

I'm still going to ask McClellan if he'll sign if I can get a good check from the BCI.
Link Posted: 4/3/2005 7:50:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2005 9:01:45 AM EDT by mobius]
that's one of the biggest problems living in a major welfare city like columbus, cleveland, dayton etc... you are going to be hard pressed to find any CLEO to sign any NFA forms. cuyahoga falls is like that as well. most of all the suburbs around these welfare cities the CLEO have no problem signing NFA. the chief of my suburb signed my form 1 the same day I dropped it off.

good luck in your search of finding a CLEO.
Link Posted: 4/3/2005 9:10:09 AM EDT
That corporation I saw in your future is getting closer.
Link Posted: 4/3/2005 1:10:42 PM EDT
I live in Northwest Ohio, the local chief of police wouldn't sign for me. I'm a freemason though, and talked to another mason I know who is a close friend of the chief of police where I live.


My friend called me and said "go to his office...he'll sign"

I got lucky that I had a personal reference I suppose.

Good luck with yours. The CLEO signatureshould be done away with in my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 9:52:48 AM EDT
The disturbing trend here is the blatant ignorance by these "knowledgeable", publicly elected officials. They all seem to be stating that due to their position or geographical location they do not have the authority to grant your request. Unbeleivable. Keep us updated.

Link Posted: 4/4/2005 12:01:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2005 1:15:40 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By mywifehatesguns:
The disturbing trend here is the blatant ignorance by these "knowledgeable", publicly elected officials. They all seem to be stating that due to their position or geographical location they do not have the authority to grant your request. Unbeleivable. Keep us updated.




police chiefs are political appointees........so a lot of that would have to do with what the mayor or whoever appointed them "political leanings" are to guns.........granted not all of the chief are just puppets to the city officals or mayor.........but when you look at large welfare cities like cleveland, columbus etc.... it's pretty obvious they got their postion because they "think along the same lines" as their masters, on certain issues, you don't see conservative mayors in these welfare cities.....and vonibitch (once mayor of cleveland) doesn't count..he's just a RINO.......if you look at the major inhabitant population that reside in these welfare cities......that should speak volumes.
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 1:29:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2005 1:29:48 PM EDT by von_landstuhl]
It looks like my lawyer-friend may have made this a little more difficult for me. He suggested that when I contact the CLEOs, I tell them that I'm willing to let them run a background check on me since none of them would certify that they "have no information indicating that will use the firearm described on [the] application for other than lawful purposes" without personally running a check.

The entire response received today from Columbus City Attorney Richard Pfeiffer said, "This office will not run a background check on you. I suggest you direct your inquiry to James G. Jackson, Chief of Police, City of Columbus."

As it turns out, the Columbus Police won't run checks for the public (I wonder why he didn't know that ), but the Franklin County Sheriff will.

So I'm going to write back, explain that a background check isn't required, enclose a Sheriff background check for good measure, and ask again if he'll sign.
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 3:47:40 PM EDT
No offense but for the 125.00 it will cost you in Ohio to form a LLC, I can't for the life of me understand why you would go thru all this trouble, plus your forms go thru in about 30 days vs 90 days for an individual.

Plus the added benefit of being able to name others to the LLC and they can have possesion of the item or items, including family/heirs.

Also down the road you can sell/transfer the LLC and the new owners take possession of all assets if you decide to get out of NFA game or if for some reason the transfer tax is raised or limited or frozen.

Scott
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 4:59:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Scooter308:
I can't for the life of me understand why you would go thru all this trouble



1. It's the principle of the thing
2. I was born in New Jersey, so I like being a pain in the ass.
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 5:06:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:

Originally Posted By Scooter308:
I can't for the life of me understand why you would go thru all this trouble



1. It's the principle of the thing
2. I was born in New Jersey, so I like being a pain in the ass.



Give 'em Hell!!!!!!!!!!!

You will get your forms signed. You did get them to sign TWO of them, right?
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 6:29:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:

Originally Posted By Scooter308:
I can't for the life of me understand why you would go thru all this trouble



1. It's the principle of the thing
2. I was born in New Jersey, so I like being a pain in the ass.



I don't have the patience for all that hoop jumping, when I could do the LLC thing without any bureaucratic bullshit and have my SBR in a month or so, when/if you do get the signoff you will be waiting 90 days for the approval.

Plus they will find out that they are not required to sign off, it is totally up to their discretion.

Just my .02, but then again my NFA items get transferred in about a month with no CLEO, as I am an FFL/SOT.

Scott
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 6:51:29 PM EDT
Scooter308,
You pay dearly for the faster privilage too. The road to the FFL/SOT is slow as well. Congrats on the status.

Saylors
Link Posted: 4/8/2005 7:33:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:
The entire response received today from Columbus City Attorney Richard Pfeiffer said, "This office will not run a background check on you. I suggest you direct your inquiry to James G. Jackson, Chief of Police, City of Columbus."

As it turns out, the Columbus Police won't run checks for the public (I wonder why he didn't know that ), but the Franklin County Sheriff will.

So I'm going to write back, explain that a background check isn't required, enclose a Sheriff background check for good measure, and ask again if he'll sign.



I just got a call from Westley Phillips, Assistant City Attorney, about my followup to their first response. He told me he called the City Police and the County Sheriff and they told him that the Police/Sheriff were responsible for signing the form.

We discussed the meaning of "a State or local district attorney or prosecutor" and he said he was going to call the City Police and the County Sheriff to verify their interpretation of the phrase (why the f*** would the City Attorney's office call the police for legal advice?)

Did I totally misunderstand the form? Wouldn't the City Attorney be considered a local prosecutor?
Link Posted: 4/8/2005 12:27:43 PM EDT
just because they got the job, dont meen they know how to do it...
Link Posted: 4/8/2005 12:54:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By russr:
just because they got the job, dont meen they know how to do it...







Sad but true...



Link Posted: 4/8/2005 2:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:
I just got a call from Westley Phillips, Assistant City Attorney, about my followup to their first response. He told me he called the City Police and the County Sheriff and they told him that the Police/Sheriff were responsible for signing the form.

We discussed the meaning of "a State or local district attorney or prosecutor" and he said he was going to call the City Police and the County Sheriff to verify their interpretation of the phrase.



He called me back around 4:30 PM and said, "The City Attorney's office does not run background checks or register firearms" and asked me to contact the Chief Jackson of the Columbus PD. I said that I understood what he was saying, but that I disagreed with their interpretation of the form. When I asked if they could put their denial in a written response, I was told he'd have to find out if that was possible and call me back.

In addition, I got the following reponse from the office of Ron O'Brien, the Franklin County Prosecutor, typed directly on my original letter with no signature (WTF, can't they afford letterhead?): "Please submit this form to the local law enforcement agency that has jurisdiction over the location of your residence, which would be CPD Chief James Jackson, or Franklin County Sheriff James A. Karnes."

Of the six letters I've mailed so far, five have come back either saying no or referring me to another organization that can't or won't sign. The only response pending is from the Ohio Attorney General.
Link Posted: 4/8/2005 5:30:09 PM EDT
So what is your next step?
Request from the ATF an alternative acceptable signature, like a judge?
Link Posted: 4/8/2005 5:44:36 PM EDT
Yup. I already have the letter written. I'm just waiting to paste the last response in before I send it.
Link Posted: 4/8/2005 9:45:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2005 12:28:54 PM EDT by mobius]
if you don't mine me saying so.......you are going through a awful lot just to have a barrel that will be 1 1/2 less then a non-NFA length.......I would change that form to make a AKS-74U (8inch barrel), at least it will look like it was worth the trouble. I was thinking about doing a SBR for a 14.5 inch M4wannabe.......but I just couldn't see justifying the 200 dollar tax for having a rifle that is a inch and a half less.

in a worse case senario, you can always buy a 14.5 inch barrel and peremently attach a 2inch FH on there........I believe the vortex one is 2 inches.
Link Posted: 4/9/2005 7:17:24 AM EDT
If it were just about an inch-and-a-half he would've incorporated and he'd be shooting that gun today. He is in it for the principal of the thing, and is obviously stubborn as hell. Fight on, and good luck, you may be able to wear them down to the point that they'll sign just to be rid of you, which is what it will take.
Link Posted: 4/9/2005 8:54:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mobius:
if you don't mine me saying so.......you are going through a awful lot just to have a barrel that will be 1 1/2 less then a non-NFA length.......I would change that form to make a AKS-74U (8inch barrel), at least it will look like it was worth the trouble. I was thinking about doing a SBR for a 14.5 inch M4wannabe.......but I just could see justifying the 200 dollar tax for having a rifle that is a inch and a half less.

in a worse case senario, you can always buy a 14.5 inch barrel and peremently attach a 2inch FH on there........I believe the vortex one is 2 inches.



My original motivation for this project was my wife, a career Army Reservist. She's currently in Iraq was a little pissed at how poor she shot at Camp Atterbury, Indiana before being sent to the sandbox. She told me that when she got back, she was going to make it a habit of going to the range because she couldn't rely on the one day a year at the range to keep her soldier skills up to date.

She plans to ask her command to issue the senior NCOs (she should be promoted to E8 this month) M4s instead of M9s, so she asked me if I could nail down the SBR process while she's gone.

I figure while I'm at it, I might as well get me one, but since I've only budgeted $100 a month for parts, I'm in no rush to put it together. If I need to shoot something black, I have an 20" A3 HBAR that's never seen a range.
Link Posted: 4/13/2005 11:25:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:
I heard back from Colonel Paul McClellan of the State Highway Patrol today:

"After reviewing your letter of request, we feel the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation in London, Ohio should certify your application to make a firearm. The Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation maintains all criminal record files for the state."

Now I have to write back and find out if the BoCI&I is a subordinate organization of the State Highway Patrol and if the head of the bureau has "specific delegated authority to sign on behalf of the" CLEO, as stated on the ATF Form 1.

If not, I have to ask Colonel McClellan if he'll sign upon a successful background check from the BoCI&I.



I just got a call from Captain Munk of the State Highway Patrol. He said their Legal Department has advised Colonel McClellan they don't want him to sign the ATF Form 1 and he asked me to contact my County Sheriff. During our conversation, he stated three reasons for not signing (I'm not sure if they're all attributable to the Legal Department):

1. they want local jurisdictions to sign off
2. legal liability
3. the State Highway Patrol isn't the State Police

BTW, I'm glad I forgot to put my phone number on the inital letters since that forced everyone to reply in writing.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 10:52:24 AM EDT
Well answer 1 is silly, the form SPECIFICALLY allows entities other than local law enforcement to sign.

Answer 2 is invalid, there is caselaw from the US Supreme Court stemming from AN OHIO CASE that releives CLEOs from liability.

They have you on answer 3 however. The OSP are not police officers, none of them.

Good luck,

GHEN
Link Posted: 4/22/2005 3:04:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:
The only response pending is from the Ohio Attorney General.



It's been four weeks since I mailed Jim Petro, so I called them to follow up on my letter. Amazingly, they have a database that tracks correspondence. I was told my message was sent to Constituent Services, so I was transferred to that department. They were able to tell me the letter was forwarded to the Bureau of Criminal Identification & Investigation in London and forwarded me to them. Unfortunately, BCI&I had no idea what I was talking about. The lady on the phone said she'd have "Deputy Director Rossi" call me back.

According to the State of Ohio Employee Phone Search at http://das.ohio.gov/phone/query.asp, there's a Jeffrey A. Rossi that works in the Identification Division of the BCI&I.

While I'd love to think that Petro will sign my form after Rossi runs a background check, I'm betting my letter is lost somewhere in their bureaucracy. I'm going to write to the ATF, detail the responses I've received, tell them the AG's office didn't reply (a true statement), and ask them to designate "another person whose certifcation is acceptable."
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 9:44:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2005 9:58:45 AM EDT by von_landstuhl]
Jeff Rossi called me today in response to my follow-up call on Friday. He hasn't seen my letter and plans to contact Constituent Services to get a copy. After explaining what I wanted, the language on the ATF Form 1, and the people I've already contacted, he said he was sure Petro won't sign. I asked for a written response for documentation purposes.

My letter to the BATF requesting more names went into the mail on Saturday. I expect it will be a few weeks before I have additional updates.

In the mean time, I've ordered the parts for my three Bushmaster stripped lowers. I got lower parts kits from Bushmaster and three pistol grips, two 6-position telestocks, and one A2 buttstock (all OD green) from Rock River Arms.

I think when all is said and done I'll wind up with a 20", a 16" midlength, and a 11.5".
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:13:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By von_landstuhl:
My letter to the BATF requesting more names went into the mail on Saturday. I expect it will be a few weeks before I have additional updates.



Nothing new really. Just replying to keep it on the board. Still no response from the ATF, but my lower is all built and waiting for an upper!
Link Posted: 5/29/2005 6:53:35 PM EDT




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