For those who do not normally go and check out CalGuns..

www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=27494

Posted by BillJr:

The following was posted as "breaking news" over on Calgunlaws.com. Have not seen this mentioned here yet, so sorry if it was and I missed it.

Last year, the California Department of Justice (DOJ) issued several letter opinions stating that certain manufacturer's AK "series" receivers were not covered by the California Assault Weapons Control Act because the guns were not specifically listed in the California Code of Regulations. Correspondence from the DOJ regarding these firearms and others can be viewed here.
In response, the receivers (which are regulated as "firearms") were made available through firearm retailers in California, and hundreds of the receivers were sold.

Now, DOJ is planning to expand the definition of "assault weapons" to include more of the currently legal receivers/firearms by adding the make and model of the receivers to the AK series or AR series lists. See Penal Code sections 12276 (a)(1) and (5).

A DOJ "stakeholders" committee has been meeting to determine which firearms it will deem AK or AR "series." Materials relating to the committee hearings will be posted here. To date, the DOJ has identified at least three manufacturer's firearms that the DOJ plans to add to the AR or AK series lists: Stag-15, JP Rifles CRT-02, and All DSA receivers, including ZM4. The DOJ has stated that a committee has designated approximately 17 firearms as candidates for addition to the AK and AR series lists.

The Ferranto Commission has released a list of the firearms that it suggests should be added to the AK or AR Series "assault weapons" lists maintained by the California Department of Justice. The Ferranto Commission also recommended changes to the current list. The Department of Justice has indicated that additional firearms are likely to be added to this list, but it could not disclose those firearms at this time. The current list of changes proposed by the Ferranto Commission include:

A change to the Olympic arms classification to read:

CAR (all) take off the 97
add MFR (all).
Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification
Model SA 85M
Add "Robinson Armament"
AK-47 series VEPR (all)
Add "DOUBLESTAR"
DSC STAR-15 rifles (all)
DSC STARCAR Carbine (all)
Add "DSA"
DS-AR (all)
Add "Barrett"
AR-series (all)
Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol.
Add "European American Armory (EAA)"
Saiga
Add Century International Arms
WASR-10 (all)
Add FAR-15 (all)
Add STAG 15 (all)
JP - (all)
CMMG (all)

---

More info: calgunlaws.com/article-450.html

UPDATE

According to DSA, they have been notified by "the DOJ" that they are NOT to ship ANY receivers to CA, since the hammer drops TOMORROW.

Odd thing - the DSA salesperson has said that they will not just cease shipping AR receivers, but FALs, too.

This could mean a variety of things:

1. This person was confused about what they can and can not ship

2. The DOJ lied to them

3. The DOJ has a FAL ban "in the works" or possibly a court date scheduled tomorrow to have them banned.

Developing...

2/2/06 v2. Alright! I've got an update from a real, live person at the DOJ, and I know I'm going to be flamed for this but so be it.

Bonnie, at the general information number for the Firearms division of the DOJ has stated to me that as far as she has been informed (and apparently there was some staff meeting about this very recently), the hammer does NOT fall tonight, however the DOJ website will be updated TONIGHT with a notice stating that the receivers will be updated soon (this is their pubic notice).

She has said that all dealers will be NOTIFIED when the ban is in place and the list is updated, which was estimated at "three to four weeks out" however it could come sooner.

This means they're working on it and it's gonna happen.

I suspect many other brands will be listed.

Maybe another 1-2 weeks now before they pull the trigger.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Quoted: This means they're working on it and it's gonna happen. I suspect many other brands will be listed. Maybe another 1-2 weeks now before they pull the trigger. Bill Wiese San Jose

I wonder if this means prices will go down on tinfoil. I've been meaning to get some for my cooking, but the prices just skyrocketed across California recently.. No idea why...

Better put in orders for uppers cause the manufacturers will soon be dry.

Quoted: I wonder if this means prices will go down on tinfoil. I've been meaning to get some for my cooking, but the prices just skyrocketed across California recently.. No idea why...

Hesse's trying to get in on the action and they're buying it all up to use as material for lowers. They also have teams scouring freeways for discarded soda cans.

Quoted: A change to the Olympic arms classification to read: CAR (all) take off the 97 add MFR (all). Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification Model SA 85M Add "Robinson Armament" AK-47 series VEPR (all) Add "DOUBLESTAR" DSC STAR-15 rifles (all) DSC STARCAR Carbine (all) Add "DSA" DS-AR (all) Add "Barrett" AR-series (all) Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol. Add "European American Armory (EAA)" Saiga Add Century International Arms WASR-10 (all) Add FAR-15 (all) Add STAG 15 (all) JP - (all) CMMG (all)

Yoo hoo!   Don't forget SunDevil Manufacturing of Mesa, AZ!

I only hope we could a bunch more receivers sold before the update.

I'd like a Romanian SAR3, but probably not going to be available as a receiver only.

Is "all" really going to Work?

I thought the case law said they had to be make and model specific?

Such as...

Olympic Arms
MFR
ICR98
PCR99

Colts
SP1
AR-15 A2
Sporter
Sporter Target
Sporter HBAR
Match Target
Match Target lightweight
Match Target HBAR
CAR-A3 HBAR Elite

Quoted: Is "all" really going to Work? I thought the case law said they had to be make and model specific? Such as... Olympic Arms MFR ICR98 PCR99 Colts SP1 AR-15 A2 Sporter Sporter Target Sporter HBAR Match Target Match Target lightweight Match Target HBAR CAR-A3 HBAR Elite

I don't think (all) is going to work. Keep in mind that the memo we see is an internam memo, and not actually The List.

I would suspect that The List will be drawn out such as:

Fulton Armory:
    FAR-15

DC Industries:
    NDS-4
    NDS-5

This is the part that's frustrating me, first the say

and All DSA receivers, including ZM4.

I read this as meaning DSA FAL receivers are going to be included, and presumably all the other off-list FALs., even though the DOJ doesn't have legislative authority.
Then, this

Add "DSA" DS-AR (all)

where they only list the DSA AR receivers.

Quoted: This is the part that's frustrating me, first the say and All DSA receivers, including ZM4.

I read this as meaning DSA FAL receivers are going to be included, and presumably all
the other off-list FALs., even though the DOJ doesn't have legislative authority.

This is an internal memo. It may well get cleaned up - esp as this was begun almost a month ago it might be a bit preliminary in terms of listed items and structure.

Yes, the DOJ cannot ban DSA FALs without a PC 12276.5 court add-on motion.

This list also has the effect of banning - at least on first read, without thinking of document focus - any non-AR/AK receiver made by JP Rifles.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

leelaw,

I made a comment about no Les Baer lowers on calguns and bwiese made mention of Harrott poking holes in the (all) clause, but it's definately a sticky grey area.  I sure as heck don't want to be a test case, but either a Les Baer or Barrett lower would have been nice for the "bling" factor.

I'm cool with the three off-list lowers that I did buy though.

If "all" is unacceptable and it now requires specific Make/Model, does this imply it's open registration for all those receivers that fell under the "all" catagory?

How's this going to fly with VPC?

First, this is still just preliminary.  It could change.  Second, all will probably work to the extent that it will pretty much stop FFL's from DROSing those lower until someone decides to challenge them in court.  It think this is just a way for the DOJ to get as many lowers covered as possible within a reasonable time frame.  They're basically in damage control mode right now.  The way I see it, this thing has taken up too much of their time from their other job duties and they're trying to rein it in in the most expedient manner they deem necessary.  Again, we are still speculating, though to some extent with an educated guess.

They want to make my EAA Single-Action Army clone an AW?

Quoted: I read this as meaning DSA FAL receivers are going to be included, and presumably all the other off-list FALs., even though the DOJ doesn't have legislative authority.

 That's interesting timing. I just bought a DSA FAL receiver, with the intent to build a CA legal FAL. If they put that wording on the list, I wonder if it means I could register it?

 I was quite happy building a CA FAL, but if they want me to be register it so I can have a removable magazine legally, who am I to argue?

Quoted:  That's interesting timing. I just bought a DSA FAL receiver, with the intent to build a CA legal FAL. If they put that wording on the list, I wonder if it means I could register it?  I was quite happy building a CA FAL, but if they want me to be register it so I can have a removable magazine legally, who am I to argue?

Yeah, for we fellow gunners, it's WIN-WIN.
For F*CADOJ, it's LOOSE-LOOSE.  

Quoted: That's interesting timing. I just bought a DSA FAL receiver, with the intent to build a CA legal FAL. If they put that wording on the list, I wonder if it means I could register it?  I was quite happy building a CA FAL, but if they want me to be register it so I can have a removable magazine legally, who am I to argue?

It would merely cause a gumming up of the works.  Since the FAL clone is a non-'series' gun it must go thru a PC 12276.5 court add-on motion and not just a simple DOJ declaration.

So if you tried to use the broad defintion of 'all' it might fail on you since the registration - even if issued - could be ruled as invalid since a reg period for that gun really didn't open since it wasn't properly declared...

Posted by Zapp:
That's interesting timing. I just bought a DSA FAL receiver, with the intent to build a CA legal FAL. If they put that wording on the list, I wonder if it means I could register it?

I was quite happy building a CA FAL, but if they want me to be register it so I can have a removable magazine legally, who am I to argue?


I see you finaly broke down to getting one! What parts kit did you get for it?

Wow, I had hoped, but honestly never thought they would add these to the list.

In fact I was quite happy to build up a fixed mag quality rifle. That being said---- a little list action, and letter response to Bill, and I would have very little issue converting to removable mag.

I just never thought I would see the day... May still not, but it surely looks brighter.

Dave

Quoted: Quoted: That's interesting timing. I just bought a DSA FAL receiver, with the intent to build a CA legal FAL. If they put that wording on the list, I wonder if it means I could register it?  I was quite happy building a CA FAL, but if they want me to be register it so I can have a removable magazine legally, who am I to argue? It would merely cause a gumming up of the works.  Since the FAL clone is a non-'series' gun it must go thru a PC 12276.5 court add-on motion and not just a simple DOJ declaration. So if you tried to use the broad defintion of 'all' it might fail on you since the registration - even if issued - could be ruled as invalid since a reg period for that gun really didn't open since it wasn't properly declared...

Bill - don't all of these additions to THE LIST have to go through the same process?

12276.5. (a) Upon request by the Attorney General filed ........, the superior court shall issue a declaration of temporary suspension .........of a firearm alleged to be an assault weapon within the meaning of Section 12276 because the firearm is either of the following:
(1) Another model by the same manufacturer or a copy by another manufacturer of an assault weapon listed in .........which is identical to one of the assault weapons listed .....except for slight modifications or enhancements including, but not limited to, a folding or retractable stock; adjustable sight; case deflector for left-handed shooters; shorter barrel; wooden, plastic or metal stock; larger magazine size; different caliber provided that the caliber exceeds .22 rimfire; or bayonet mount. The court shall strictly construe this paragraph so that a firearm which is merely similar in appearance but not a prototype or copy cannot be found to be within the meaning of this paragraph.
(2) A firearm first manufactured or sold to the general public in California after June 1, 1989, which has been redesigned, renamed, or renumbered from one of the firearms listed ......., or which is manufactured or sold by another company under a licensing agreement to manufacture or sell one of the firearms listed .........., regardless of the company of production or distribution, or the country of origin.

The process seems pretty simple and quick for the DOJ to ram through if it wants to.  
I can't think of any of the receivers that have been discussed lately that would fall outside the two categories of section 12276.5.  
Hopefully the DSA fal receiver is safe from listing because it is not on the Ferranto Commission memo.  Actually, there are no fal recievers on this list, only on THE LIST.

Quoted: Posted by Zapp: That's interesting timing. I just bought a DSA FAL receiver, with the intent to build a CA legal FAL. If they put that wording on the list, I wonder if it means I could register it? I was quite happy building a CA FAL, but if they want me to be register it so I can have a removable magazine legally, who am I to argue? I see you finaly broke down to getting one! What parts kit did you get for it?

 I am looking at the STG-58 kit for it. But thats still up in the air. There are a few other interesting options, I just gotta see what pans out. Yours is an STG kit right? If mine winds up being as nice a shooter as yours is, I will be very happy.

Bill, you are right, I suspect they will specify just the AR on the DSA stuff. But it would be interesting to see how they reacted if someone were to use the vagueness of their (all) statements against them.

Quoted: It would merely cause a gumming up of the works.  Since the FAL clone is a non-'series' gun it must go thru a PC 12276.5 court add-on motion and not just a simple DOJ declaration.

Tonkaman wrote: Bill - don't all of these additions to THE LIST have to go through the same process? NO! The process seems pretty simple and quick for the DOJ to ram through if it wants to.   I can't think of any of the receivers that have been discussed lately that would fall outside the two categories of section 12276.5.   Hopefully the DSA fal receiver is safe from listing because it is not on the Ferranto Commission memo.  Actually, there are no fal recievers on this list, only on THE LIST.

Let's get things separated here. [My FAQ on Calguns goes into this too in the Harrott discussion and breakdown.]

Unlike other named AWs, AR and AK are 'series' guns (they were only ones using this term in the original Roberti-Roos ban).  While one part of Kasler (2000) said that anything that looked like a duck and talked like a duck was a duck (that is, an AR is an AR, an AK is an AK), the 2001 Harrott decision said that was over-broad and people only have to determine if they're listed by make/model, and they must be first listed and promulgated before being banned - and that a trial court could not determine whether an item was banned other than by examination of a public list of banned makes/models.)

Kasler and Harrott both confirm the DOJ has the authority to directly add new members to the 'series' gun list without a PC 12276.5 court add-on motion.  That is, they are allowed to 'identify' and list new AR/AK 'series' members - and  'series' members only.  Thus PC 12276.5(h) holds and they just update the list.  The court apparently felt it was within the purvue of DOJ's supposedly expert opinion to identify members of a series.

All other non-series guns (for now, those that are nonAR/nonAK) must go thru the PC 12276.5 court add-on declaration procedure.  (Notice difference between identification and declaration).   First a temporary, then permanent, declaration of AW status is obtained from court, providing DOJ can show sufficient cause.  For things that are close to 'copies and duplicates' this is probably fairly easy.  But it still is more work than just updating AR/AK list and filing for new Calif Code of Regulation update (sec 979.11).

It is quite possible that the DOJ could do a new 'series' declaration via a PC 12276.5 court add-on motion to encompass other complete ranges of weapons by making new series.  Once a new series - say, a "FAL series" - is declared, new member items can be added directly by DOJ without further court intervention.  This way they don't have to do a separate court motion for each & every brand and variant (though they do have to list them after declaration specifically).


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Bill,

 You might want to correct your post. I didn't write that. I already read your FAQ, and the laws in question ;)

Sorry Zapp.. Corrected, redirected to the right person....

Bill

Bill - So did the Kasler list totally replace the RobertiRoos list that did include FN fal ?  If so, and assuming a fal has no resemblance to an AR or AK (I don't see how a fal could be considered identical to either AR or AK but I'm not a politician/lawyer), how would all of those fal uppers get on THE LIST???

Quoted: So did the Kasler list totally replace the RobertiRoos list that did include FN fal ?

There's really 2 lists.

The Kasler list is, for now, ONLY for AR and AK and does not involve a court add-on procedure. It is reflected in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11.   If other series of guns get banned as a 'series' thru a court proceeding and subsequent DOJ addition of members to this list, then the so-called Kasler list will have a 3rd series in it.

The original 50+ named Roberti-Roos guns are in a separate list - Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.10 - and this list would normally get specific individual banned makes/models of guns (i.e., non-'series').

If so, and assuming a fal has no resemblance to an AR or AK (I don't see how a fal could be considered identical to either AR or AK but I'm not a politician/lawyer),  how would all of those fal uppers get on THE LIST???

FAL clones could/would be banned on a separate basis like the procedure for any other nonAR/nonAK weapon: they'd (DOJ) have to go thru a 12276.5 court add-on motion - in which the DOJ could possibly try to create yet another 'series'.  (Otherwise the DOJ  has to repeatedly go to court in small batches of individual makes/models.)  If they get FALs declared as a 'series' DOJ can add members to this series at will.  

This will be entirely separate from the current AR/AK activity.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Bill, you are a virtual gold mine of information.  Thank you so much for all of your hard work and effort in helping to clear things up for us.

Quoted: Bill, you are a virtual gold mine of information.  Thank you so much for all of your hard work and effort in helping to clear things up for us.

 +1 I'm sure glad he is on our side.

Quoted: Bill, you are a virtual gold mine of information.  Thank you so much for all of your hard work and effort in helping to clear things up for us.

+1

Quoted: This is the part that's frustrating me, first the say and All DSA receivers, including ZM4. I read this as meaning DSA FAL receivers are going to be included, and presumably all the other off-list FALs., even though the DOJ doesn't have legislative authority. Then, this Add "DSA" DS-AR (all) where they only list the DSA AR receivers. hinking.gif

I have a strong feeling that the DOJ is either already in the process of going to a court or may go to a court to get the FALs declared a "Series" weapon.  Once it is declared a "Series" weapon, the DOJ may then promulgate a "list".  I wouldn't be surprised if they also did this for HK clones and Uzi clones.

Quoted: Quoted: This is the part that's frustrating me, first the say and All DSA receivers, including ZM4. I read this as meaning DSA FAL receivers are going to be included, and presumably all the other off-list FALs., even though the DOJ doesn't have legislative authority. Then, this Add "DSA" DS-AR (all) where they only list the DSA AR receivers. I have a strong feeling that the DOJ is either already in the process of going to a court or may go to a court to get the FALs declared a "Series" weapon.  Once it is declared a "Series" weapon, the DOJ may then promulgate a "list".  I wouldn't be surprised if they also did this for HK clones and Uzi clones.

Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision?  In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars?  

Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision? In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars?

Dude, get a receiver now. As soon as even a hint of some action by the DOJ, all the receivers in the country will be sold. Think panic buying.

Quoted: Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision?  In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars?

Consider yourself warned.

Quoted: Quoted: Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision?  In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars?   Consider yourself warned.

+1, get em while the gettinz good.

Quoted: there is a golden opportunity for those that were too young, just moved here , or got into the AR after the 2000 ban.

Sure looks this way!

Posted by Zapp:
I am looking at the STG-58 kit for it. But thats still up in the air. There are a few other interesting options, I just gotta see what pans out. Yours is an STG kit right? If mine winds up being as nice a shooter as yours is, I will be very happy.

That's right.

Quoted: Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision? In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars? Dude, get a receiver now. As soon as even a hint of some action by the DOJ, all the receivers in the country will be sold. Think panic buying.

That sucking sound you here is all the lowers available getting sucked in to CA now.  That blup you might hear will be that last one flying by.  (Yeah I'm a believer now.)

Quoted: Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision?  In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars?

Court issued a decision already (Harrott). DOJ just has to add it to the list and "Game Over" could be as early as this Monday... as late as 2020 or later... its their call.

Quoted: Quoted: Would we get some sort of warning if the DOJ does this and what would be the time frame between them starting this and the court issuing a decision? In other words, would we have enough time to get a reciever before the temporary injunction against sales stars? Dude, get a receiver now. As soon as even a hint of some action by the DOJ, all the receivers in the country will be sold. Think panic buying. That sucking sound you here is all the lowers available getting sucked in to CA now.  That blup you might hear will be that last one flying by.  (Yeah I'm a believer now.)

Not all.  JBrower who some of us old timers remember from the AR15-L email lists reported lowers selling for $99.00 at his local Florida gunshow a couple weeks ago. It appears the high prices are not due to a limited supply of lowers. Instead they are due to an extra middle man being in the process. the manufacturers sell to distributers who then sell them to an FFL outside california who then forwards them to the Cali FFLS.  This is extra set of fingers in the cookie jar is necessary becuase of the manufacturers and distributors being unwilling to sell direct to Cali FFLs. Which creates an artificially limited supply, in our state alone.

In some cases the Cali FFL holders have FFLs in other state(s) too and therefore can cut out this extra step. Hopefully with a corrisponding price decrease, but unlikely.

Can anyone recommend a good source for lowers in the southern California area, preferably close to Los Angeles?

If so, do you know what makes are available?

Thanks for the info.

Sven

Quoted: Can anyone recommend a good source for lowers in the southern California area, preferably close to Los Angeles? If so, do you know what makes are available? Thanks for the info. Sven

If possible please inform me as well, thank you.

Also, if i were to choose to transfer from CWS(Cold War Shooters) what or which type of dealers will be able to transfer to them? I'm not too sure how this whole transfer thing works.
-Jon

Quoted: If FALs are declared "series" weapons and are added to the list, does that mean neutered fixed mag pistol gripless Caliban legal FALs can be registered as AWs and then reconfigured to have all the nasty features?

This 1st pass will NOT declare FALs as AWs.  The DOJ can only do this itself for ARs/AKs.

Declarations of individual FAL-related models - or as a series - must go thru a PC 12276.5 add-on motion in certain superior courts.  This is entirely separate from the AR/AK off-list lower situation.

I would expect some eventual activity in the FAL arena though ...

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Quoted: If FALs are declared "series" weapons and are added to the list, does that mean neutered fixed mag pistol gripless Caliban legal FALs can be registered as AWs and then reconfigured to have all the nasty features?

This 1st pass will NOT declare FALs as AWs.  The DOJ can only do this itself for ARs/AKs.

Declarations of individual FAL-related models - or as a series - must go thru a PC 12276.5 add-on motion in certain superior courts.  This is entirely separate from the AR/AK off-list lower situation.

I would expect some eventual activity in the FAL arena though ...

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Quoted: I would expect some eventual activity in the FAL arena though ...

Dangit, and those receivers cost more than AR receivers!!!

These guys and their "loophole"-fixing ways are going to make me go broke!

Quoted: Declarations of individual FAL-related models - or as a series - must go thru a PC 12276.5 add-on motion in certain superior courts.

Bill - Is this a quick process?  Could a temporary ban be put in place in like a few days??

Quoted: Quoted: I would expect some eventual activity in the FAL arena though ... Dangit, and those receivers cost more than AR receivers!!!

 And they seem to only be going up. Due to the import ban, its tough to get Imbels cheap now. I wound up getting a DSA receiver. If you get a friendly FFL, you are gonna pay $350-400 for the DSA receiver, not including transfer fees. And since the Fed Govt outlawed importing parts kits, the rest of the FAL parts are going to be more pricey soon too.

Quoted: Quoted:  And they seem to only be going up. Due to the import ban, its tough to get Imbels cheap now. I wound up getting a DSA receiver. If you get a friendly FFL, you are gonna pay $350-400 for the DSA receiver, not including transfer fees. And since the Fed Govt outlawed importing parts kits, the rest of the FAL parts are going to be more pricey soon too.

In a way, affordable FAL's are already banned.  The seven US made parts alone are into the $600 range.  That was the entire cost of a roll-ur-own a year ago.

Quoted: In a way, affordable FAL's are already banned.  The seven US made parts alone are into the $600 range.  That was the entire cost of a roll-ur-own a year ago.

 You sure about that price for the compliance parts? Either I am great at bargain hunting, or you are really bad at it .

 BTW, One nice thing about the DSA upper receiver, is that it is US made, so it counts for one of the parts, and you have to buy a receiver either way, so might as well get the DSA for about the same cost as the other ones.

   The other 6 parts can be had for a little over $100