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Posted: 1/18/2006 5:49:49 AM EDT
Cornered Homeowner Shoots Cougar in Orange County Back Yard

RANCHO SANTA MARGARITA, Calif. (AP) 1.17.06, 1:05p -- The Orange County sheriff's department says the homeowner wounded the mountain lion and it ran into the rugged canyon area. It was tracked down and killed by sheriff's deputies and state Department of Fish and Game wardens.

Sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino says deputies had no choice but to shoot the cat in close proximity to an elementary school.

Resident Laurie Hill says she saw the 90-pound mountain lion in the back yard of her (Cimarron Lane) home and her husband went to investigate.

Husband Bill Hill, a former Stanton police officer and now a private investigator, shot twice with his nine-millimeter pistol.

Amormino says there would be an investigation to determine if the initial shooting was justified.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:22:40 PM EDT
90 lbs is a pretty big cat...
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:21:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 7:22:11 PM EDT by SteveSatch]
I heard a couple reports earlier but they didn't say what caliber was used, surprised it was a 9mm
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:53:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 7:57:49 PM EDT by TKoProductions]

Originally Posted By SteveSatch:
I heard a couple reports earlier but they didn't say what caliber was used, surprised it was a 9mm



No wonder he only wounded it.

Perfect justifyable reason why the people of California need .50BMG's.

One shot, and pieces of that cat would've been found in San Diego county.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:50:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 8:51:21 PM EDT by Pthfndr]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Husband Bill Hill, a former Stanton police officer and now a private investigator, shot twice with his nine-millimeter pistol.





Shouldn't that say he HIT it twice. If I was shooting a handgun at a Mt Lion I'd sure as heck let loose more than 2 rounds.

Personally, I find a 200gr SP 7.62x54R out of Mosin Nagant 91/59 works great. But if it happens at night you better not miss because the fireball will bllind you for a follow up shot.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 1:40:39 AM EDT
the guys should of just stood there and watch and do nothing. first of all big cats are "just as afraid of humans as humans may be afraid of big cats" ....so there it is the words from wildlife biologist/DFG. so in other words just let the cat do it's thing, it's just passing by the neighborhood.....shooting a big cat can result in prosecution/lawsuits/fines--remember this is the PRK. citizens don't have rights to bare arms and defend themselves. they must rely solely on law enforcement for help. if someone is being attacked by a big cat, run inside the house/lock the doors and dial 9-1-1. don't go to retrieve the M4 or the 12ga....wait a minute you don't have any?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:14:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:15:45 AM EDT by AR15fan]
Homeowner shot twice, and likely hit the cat with his first shot. Catthen ran around his fenced back yard trying to escape and he popped off one more round at it as it fled through a hole in the fence.

Local cops showed up with 5.56m rifles and shotguns loaded with low recoil buck. Fish & Game showed up with .308 rifle and shotgun loaded with slugs and instructed the locals to shoot the cat on sight.

By the time it was dead the cat had been hit with 9mm, 556, OO Buck, .308 and 12 gauge slugs.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:14:53 AM EDT
Anyone have access to the AAR on this?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:15:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:20:20 AM EDT
The media interviewed a bunch of kids, OC Register, I think.

The general sentiment from the kids I got was, wow that's scary and why did you have to kill it?

Sigh... maybe they should show pictures of the biker that survived the mauling.

Humans FIRST... animals second (except a few canines...)
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:42:13 AM EDT
If someone’s life was in danger then go ahead and shoot, if not then don't. This guy so far looks fairly stupid, it's not like he was in the backyard and was surprised by a lion preping for the attack. His wife told him there was a mountain lion in the backyard so like a genius he goes in the backyard and then says he had no choice, but to shoot it. When you go to Yellowstone and a bear is outside the car do you get out and shoot it and say you had no choice. No, you stay in the car. If you don't like living around mountain lions don't move there. As far as the biker who was mauled that’s completely different and also a chance you take when you ride whiting ranch. They put the signs up for a reason. If a lion attacks someone you need to put it down, if not leave it alone.

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:48:46 AM EDT
Darn it,

I ran over a rattlesnake on the way the Lytle Creek... Maybe I should have swerved out of the way.

No wait, there where a few bicyclists the we passed. Perhaps they would have gotten bit. Hmm.

I'm not sure I would have done is this man's situation. Perhaps he did feel threatened. Perhaps he had grandkids nearby. Maybe he knew the people who where mauled or killed by a predator before. Only he would know.

Would I provide a tempting target by standing there, no I would not. Would I purposely act in a way to attract its attention, no. Will I have a firearm present, definitely if given the opportunity.

Now, if my children or wife were in harm's way and cannot reach safety, well...
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 1:15:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 1:20:45 PM EDT by PaDanby]

Originally Posted By Paul:
Actually the way the law is written is that if you are endangered you can kill the animal. Different from hunting where the animal is minding it's own business and you shoot it ... in this case you're minding your own business and it (attempts) to bite you!




But ignorance of the law means you can badmouth CA more often. Being informed is no fun.

If a 9mm is good enough for a 200 lb druggie, why wouldn't it work an a 90lb pussy cat? (assuming you aren't trying to go the long way to the COM.) I would bet he was expecting a 2 legged intruder and not a 4 legged one.

If I lived in that area I think an 870 would be a little more available.

Does a cougar shit his/her pants when it hears a slide being racked?


They estimated 4000-6000 cougars in the state now. I think that's pretty high considering how much territory they need and the lack of regular sightings.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:57:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ocmike:
If someone’s life was in danger then go ahead and shoot, if not then don't. This guy so far looks fairly stupid, it's not like he was in the backyard and was surprised by a lion preping for the attack. His wife told him there was a mountain lion in the backyard ....



Like usual. The media reports are not entirely accurate. i have spoken to more than one of the cops involved. The man was in the front yard of his house. his wife was in the back yard. The man heard his wife scream, not "hey honey there's a kitty cat in the yard" but a primal scream. Not knowing why his wife was screaming, the man grabbed his 9mm from his car and ran to the back yard to investigate. This is a rich area, big back yards. When he got to the back yard he couldnt see his wife and instead ended up on the pool deck with the cat, which crouched and snarled at him. thats when he shot. Fish & Game is investigating and if there is any indication all all that the homeowner fired prematurley the granola cops will find it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:48:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
90 lbs is a pretty big cat...

A mature female is about 80 to 90 lbs, a good tom will go 150 to 160. It doesnt take much to kill them [unlike the African cats.] Ranchers shoot the shit out of them, so does the DFG and state trappers. Everyone is killing them but [legal] licensed hunters.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:10:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pieeater:
A mature female is about 80 to 90 lbs, a good tom will go 150 to 160. It doesnt take much to kill them [unlike the African cats.] Ranchers shoot the shit out of them, so does the DFG and state trappers. Everyone is killing them but [legal] licensed hunters.



it's always the people that's doing things LEgaLLY that gets left out from doing the fun stuff
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:24:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m98codered:

Originally Posted By pieeater:
A mature female is about 80 to 90 lbs, a good tom will go 150 to 160. It doesnt take much to kill them [unlike the African cats.] Ranchers shoot the shit out of them, so does the DFG and state trappers. Everyone is killing them but [legal] licensed hunters.



it's always the people that's doing things LEgaLLY that gets left out from doing the fun stuff

One of my cop friends always tells me "Its only illegal if you get caught"
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:10:31 AM EDT
Maybe he should have used a paintball gun. I use it on all of my neighborhood cats that shit in my flowerbeds. Some of them are probably 8lbs.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 9:10:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Homeowner shot twice, and likely hit the cat with his first shot. Catthen ran around his fenced back yard trying to escape and he popped off one more round at it as it fled through a hole in the fence.

Local cops showed up with 5.56m rifles and shotguns loaded with low recoil buck. Fish & Game showed up with .308 rifle and shotgun loaded with slugs and instructed the locals to shoot the cat on sight.

By the time it was dead the cat had been hit with 9mm, 556, OO Buck, .308 and 12 gauge slugs.



From my friend in the OCSO, "They took it down with the .308. They spotted her on the hill, and knew she was wounded. So they fired."

-d
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 10:14:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dizza:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Homeowner shot twice, and likely hit the cat with his first shot. Catthen ran around his fenced back yard trying to escape and he popped off one more round at it as it fled through a hole in the fence.

Local cops showed up with 5.56m rifles and shotguns loaded with low recoil buck. Fish & Game showed up with .308 rifle and shotgun loaded with slugs and instructed the locals to shoot the cat on sight.

By the time it was dead the cat had been hit with 9mm, 556, OO Buck, .308 and 12 gauge slugs.



From my friend in the OCSO, "They took it down with the .308. They spotted her on the hill, and knew she was wounded. So they fired."

-d



Your friend is right. They(Fish & Game) did shoot it once with a .308, as well as a 12 gauge slug. OCSD shot it with 5.56mm and OO buck. the homeowner hit it once with a 9mm. Ive talked to the guys who were there.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:44:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 11:45:36 AM EDT by m98codered]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By dizza:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Homeowner shot twice, and likely hit the cat with his first shot. Catthen ran around his fenced back yard trying to escape and he popped off one more round at it as it fled through a hole in the fence.

Local cops showed up with 5.56m rifles and shotguns loaded with low recoil buck. Fish & Game showed up with .308 rifle and shotgun loaded with slugs and instructed the locals to shoot the cat on sight.

By the time it was dead the cat had been hit with 9mm, 556, OO Buck, .308 and 12 gauge slugs.



From my friend in the OCSO, "They took it down with the .308. They spotted her on the hill, and knew she was wounded. So they fired."

-d



Your friend is right. They(Fish & Game) did shoot it once with a .308, as well as a 12 gauge slug. OCSD shot it with 5.56mm and OO buck. the homeowner hit it once with a 9mm. Ive talked to the guys who were there.



now I wonder why the pd's been pushing to get mg249's and .50cal beltfeds. the little cat took all those hits and ran off......makes you wonder how well leo's can shoot......maybe now they will need to use paper mt lion targets instead of mansize type targets for practice/training
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 12:04:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m98codered:
[.....makes you wonder how well leo's can shoot......



Like everyone else they shoot, drive, fight and type as well as their training. If you want them to shoot better than pressure your City council and county board of supervisiors to increase the training budget. You get the police you pay for.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:07:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 3:09:18 PM EDT by kasudyo]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By m98codered:
[.....makes you wonder how well leo's can shoot......



Like everyone else they shoot, drive, fight and type as well as their training. If you want them to shoot better than pressure your City council and county board of supervisiors to increase the training budget. You get the police you pay for.



Hm, I don't have a firearms training budget. Can I shoot MOA?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:32:46 PM EDT
Where did this happen exactly?

RSM is hiking distance to where Laura Small got munched by a cat some years ago. Coyotes feast on pets areound that area.

Live and let live works for me unless it is a dangerous animal in my yard.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:32:39 PM EDT
Mountain lions have extraordinary vision and are remarkably fast. From a standing position, mountain lions can jump a vertical distance of up to 15 feet and a horizontal distance of 40 feet.
Killing lions is alot different then shooting paper. I've bumped into a couple while out of state with a tag. And its either been like trying to shoot a flushed quail with a scoped rifle or the 500 yard I have 3 seconds to set up and make the shot kind of thing. I've killed bobcats without dogs no problem but the only lion I have killed was with dogs. Most lions you see will be gone before you can shoot. Wounded or not you are lucky to get any rounds into a lion that isnt treed.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Papertargets:
Where did this happen exactly?

RSM is hiking distance to where Laura Small got munched by a cat some years ago. Coyotes feast on pets areound that area.

Live and let live works for me unless it is a dangerous animal in my yard.



And don't forget the attacks on the bicyclists in the last few years. I'ld bet they are with a few miles of each other.

I live up in Brea, and we've had a few credible reports of cougars in the hills north of town. Not many, but I wouldn't be surprised. I've been hearing coyotes lately and I hadn't heard them all that much before. The Register mentioned in an article a while back that among other animals killed on the 241 Toll Road, they've had something like 9 or 10 cougars hit.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 1:56:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 1:58:15 AM EDT by m98codered]

Originally Posted By pieeater:
Mountain lions have extraordinary vision and are remarkably fast. From a standing position, mountain lions can jump a vertical distance of up to 15 feet and a horizontal distance of 40 feet.
Killing lions is alot different then shooting paper. I've bumped into a couple while out of state with a tag. And its either been like trying to shoot a flushed quail with a scoped rifle or the 500 yard I have 3 seconds to set up and make the shot kind of thing. I've killed bobcats without dogs no problem but the only lion I have killed was with dogs. Most lions you see will be gone before you can shoot. Wounded or not you are lucky to get any rounds into a lion that isnt treed.



the moral of this cat shooting is that if the cops don't have a shot then don't pull that trigger. it's no different that when hunting. seems to me that the leo's/dfg must have gotten trigger happy. if the cat gets away then well dfg will just have to track it and hunt it down or just hire(give permission to hunters) to hunt down the cat....it's not that difficult. it's also not a good thing to wound a cat that's near dwellings/kids/animals. it'll be worst than having a really mean rabid dog.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:21:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m98codered:

Originally Posted By pieeater:
Mountain lions have extraordinary vision and are remarkably fast. From a standing position, mountain lions can jump a vertical distance of up to 15 feet and a horizontal distance of 40 feet.
Killing lions is alot different then shooting paper. I've bumped into a couple while out of state with a tag. And its either been like trying to shoot a flushed quail with a scoped rifle or the 500 yard I have 3 seconds to set up and make the shot kind of thing. I've killed bobcats without dogs no problem but the only lion I have killed was with dogs. Most lions you see will be gone before you can shoot. Wounded or not you are lucky to get any rounds into a lion that isnt treed.



the moral of this cat shooting is that if the cops don't have a shot then don't pull that trigger. it's no different that when hunting. seems to me that the leo's/dfg must have gotten trigger happy. if the cat gets away then well dfg will just have to track it and hunt it down or just hire(give permission to hunters) to hunt down the cat....it's not that difficult. it's also not a good thing to wound a cat that's near dwellings/kids/animals. it'll be worst than having a really mean rabid dog.



The Cat was already wounded before the cops ever got there. Which is why F&G made the decision to shoot it on sight and gave that order to the locals.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:40:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 7:41:06 PM EDT by pieeater]

Originally Posted By m98codered:

Originally Posted By pieeater:
Mountain lions have extraordinary vision and are remarkably fast. From a standing position, mountain lions can jump a vertical distance of up to 15 feet and a horizontal distance of 40 feet.
Killing lions is alot different then shooting paper. I've bumped into a couple while out of state with a tag. And its either been like trying to shoot a flushed quail with a scoped rifle or the 500 yard I have 3 seconds to set up and make the shot kind of thing. I've killed bobcats without dogs no problem but the only lion I have killed was with dogs. Most lions you see will be gone before you can shoot. Wounded or not you are lucky to get any rounds into a lion that isnt treed.



the moral of this cat shooting is that if the cops don't have a shot then don't pull that trigger. it's no different that when hunting. seems to me that the leo's/dfg must have gotten trigger happy. if the cat gets away then well dfg will just have to track it and hunt it down or just hire(give permission to hunters) to hunt down the cat....it's not that difficult. it's also not a good thing to wound a cat that's near dwellings/kids/animals. it'll be worst than having a really mean rabid dog.



If I'm hunting game animals and dont have a decent shot I wont shoot. If I'm killing animals that are a pest or nuisance I let the lead fly.Who cares? Even if you miss it hopefuly you scared the shit out of it so it wont come back and kill any more livestock. There is no slam dunk in cat hunting, even with the best dogs there are a lot of factors where the dogs can lose the scent.

They killed it, so to me it was a good shoot. Better than I have ever done. The couple of lions I have run into without dogs I didnt even come close to getting.
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