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Posted: 1/3/2006 5:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:13:18 PM EDT by Pthfndr]
Stopped by my local funstore today and had an interesting conversation with the owner. A very knowledgeable guy. Knows his stuff and laws etc. Has an AW sellers permit, supplies the local police and sheriff with firearms and works on their rifles. Not full of BS.

The subject of the Reno show came up and he told me about a CA resident that bought an AK there. The story was the DOJ somehow witnessed the transaction and either from surveilence cameras in the lot of visual surveilence knew the guys car had CA plates. They followed him and after he crossed the CA state line was stopped and arrested in Truckee. Subsequently while he was in custody the DOJ got a warrant and searched his home and removed all of his firearms.

He is awaiting trial on AW related charges. The seller was also arrested by the ATF at the show. Not sure what the charges were on that. My gunstore guy could not give any more details than that, other than to say the person who told him said the buyer will probably lose hos right to own firearms for a while.

When I asked him where he heard this from (because we all know how the rumor mill is), he told me he heard it direct from the buyers ATTORNEY - who happens to be one of his customers. It was the first CONFIRMED DOJ bust of a CA buyer that he knows of.

ETA: One more thing. The guy busted was NOT some young gang banger. He was a middle aged (maybe older) guy who had a fairly large collection of firearms already. Now he has none.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:02:28 PM EDT
haven't heard anything about it, and what is the CA DOJ doing in Reno? that seems like a very odd thing to do.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:06:29 PM EDT
That's why they waited for him to cross the state line before they collared him.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:15:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 7:16:32 PM EDT by pieeater]
Seems like it would be a hard operation to pull off. What is there 200 CA plates in the lot? If the DOJ sent 8 agents up there how many people could they follow all day 4 maybe 8 max?What are the odds of someone in that group doing something illegal? What if their target spends the night or gos to the whorehouse or gambling after the show ?

Maybe he got setup by a friend working off a bust. Or I guess the DOJ could watch the guys walking around selling private party and follow the buyer out to his car and check the plate.One time when I was there in the early ninetys. I watched an old white guy sell an AK to two mexicans about 18 to 20 yo. They were both wearing long sleeve shirts to cover up their tats.One had tear drop tats and both had tats on their necks and hands and looked real nervous. I would of bet money they were both felons.

Thats probably how they do it watch the private party guys and follow the buyer to their car.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:41:47 PM EDT
Sounds like BS.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:45:39 PM EDT
Not likely we'll ever know the details of how it all happened. Could have been something as simple as the DOJ guys just happened to pull in to the lot when he did and walked in right behind him, and the guy went to the first table that had an AK, so they followed him.

And for all we know the guy might have been oblivious to what the current laws in CA. As an older person could be the last time he bought a firearm, what he did was perfectly legal. Lots of people sell guns at garage sales and estate sales that do not know what they are doing is not legal.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:21:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 8:22:37 PM EDT by leelaw]
I wonder if he was under the assumption that non-named AKs were legal here (correct), and just forgot the part about taking off the pistol grip (AB23).. or if he did and the DOJ wants to make a test case out of him.. or if it's just BS.

Who knows, I'd certainly like to see a follow-up on this.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:32:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pieeater:
Seems like it would be a hard operation to pull off. What is there 200 CA plates in the lot? If the DOJ sent 8 agents up there how many people could they follow all day 4 maybe 8 max?What are the odds of someone in that group doing something illegal? What if their target spends the night or gos to the whorehouse or gambling after the show ?

Maybe he got setup by a friend working off a bust. Or I guess the DOJ could watch the guys walking around selling private party and follow the buyer out to his car and check the plate.One time when I was there in the early ninetys. I watched an old white guy sell an AK to two mexicans about 18 to 20 yo. They were both wearing long sleeve shirts to cover up their tats.One had tear drop tats and both had tats on their necks and hands and looked real nervous. I would of bet money they were both felons.

Thats probably how they do it watch the private party guys and follow the buyer to their car.



Smells like a BS story to me, DOJ using all these resources maybe to catch a couple guys with otherwise clean records buying guns My question is which DA in there right mind would want to waste there time prosecuting such case. Not to mention even if they did waste their time prosecuting what would be gained, informal probation??? big deal...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:18:50 PM EDT
Read these.............

BATF Reno gun show sting

Reno Sting 2

I know its only one side of the story..............
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:44:31 AM EDT
I believe it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:23:54 AM EDT
Sounds feasible but why risk it all just to add an AK to the collection? A $300 rifle.

Middle aged is 40+ right, someone is bound to do this.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:43:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 6:44:35 AM EDT by Mesa_Tactical]
I used to spend a lot of time on alt.folklore.urban back in the day. This sounds like an urban legend.

We have heard the same story before many times, identical in almost all particulars, and yet never a name or a date for an arrest which is absolutely part of the public record.

The person relating the story is never directly involved. In this case, Pthfndr heard it from someone who heard it from someone who claims he was directly involved. And the attorney, who seems to be admitting his client was in willful violation of the law, can't give names, though the arrest and charges are public information.

I'm not casting aspersions on Pthfndr or anyone else. Urban legends are often spread (or "vectored" as they called it on a.f.u) by the most unimpeachable and trustworthy sources. But this does have all the earmarks of a UL, and until names and dates and docket numbers appear that's how I'll always regard it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:17:00 AM EDT
I too have heard a lot of the "stories" about the DOJ trying to net CA people buyiing hi cap mags and don't believe them. But I will say this. The dealer who told me is a stand up guy. They had a table just a few down from the Survival Enterprises people the weekend they got busted and said he was as surprised as anyone that those people screwed up and got busted (sting or not, they acted stupidly even going by their own account of what happened). He has never told me any of the usual gunstore BS stories that run around on the internet.

You or others might grill the attorney who told him about it for case number, more details, etc. Knowing this guy I can see where he wouldn't. If there was issues still pending on the case I can also see where the attorney might not elaborate on the details at this time.

I suspect the the guy who got busted just did the wrong thing, at the wrong time, in the wrong place, and got unlucky.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:51:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Smells like a BS story to me, DOJ using all these resources maybe to catch a couple guys with otherwise clean records buying guns



You're kidding, right?


My question is which DA in there right mind would want to waste there time prosecuting such case.


A D.A. with political ambitions. One who wants to get a strong reputation as being tough on crime. One who wants to be seen as a staunch defender of the people by shutting the gunshow loophole and removing evil from the streets.

So, just about all of them.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:23:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Smells like a BS story to me, DOJ using all these resources maybe to catch a couple guys with otherwise clean records buying guns



You're kidding, right?


My question is which DA in there right mind would want to waste there time prosecuting such case.


A D.A. with political ambitions. One who wants to get a strong reputation as being tough on crime. One who wants to be seen as a staunch defender of the people by shutting the gunshow loophole and removing evil from the streets.

So, just about all of them.



I was in court all last week anywho I observed quite a few cases, one that comes to mind is a drug dealer and the PSI on him was a million miles long (arrests, domestic abuse...) anyways the guy robs a man because he wasn't a gang member and pushes him into a wall with a 10" knife in hand.

Judge does not even send this SOB to prison, fucking plea bargain

different judge: illegal alien selling drugs near a school carrying a .25, plea bargain formal probation.

Gentleman although this story could be true my main point is our jails are full our courts are packed the prosecutors do not have time to deal with law abiding citizens when they have real criminals on the streets.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:28:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DVCAPI:
Read these.............

BATF Reno gun show sting

Reno Sting 2

I know its only one side of the story..............



Ok I can believe that the ATF busted dealers selling to ex felons, I have a hard time believing that the ATF or DOJ was watching random people with CA plates and arresting an otherwise law abiding 40 year old for buying one AK.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:49:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By DVCAPI:
Read these.............

BATF Reno gun show sting

Reno Sting 2

I know its only one side of the story..............



Ok I can believe that the ATF busted dealers selling to ex felons, I have a hard time believing that the ATF or DOJ was watching random people with CA plates and arresting an otherwise law abiding 40 year old for buying one AK.



NO ONE said they were "watching" random people. I don't think they have the resources to that. Just like police can't be everywhere to prevent crime. But every once in a while it happens right in front of them and the BG gets nabbed.

And if you have such a hard time believing it could happen, then why do ask so many questions about trying to skirt the law. Just go buy an AR illegally and take it to the range and feel safe
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:28:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By DVCAPI:
Read these.............

BATF Reno gun show sting

Reno Sting 2

I know its only one side of the story..............



Ok I can believe that the ATF busted dealers selling to ex felons, I have a hard time believing that the ATF or DOJ was watching random people with CA plates and arresting an otherwise law abiding 40 year old for buying one AK.



NO ONE said they were "watching" random people. I don't think they have the resources to that. Just like police can't be everywhere to prevent crime. But every once in a while it happens right in front of them and the BG gets nabbed.



Go read the link.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:51:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

And if you have such a hard time believing it could happen, then why do ask so many questions about trying to skirt the law. Just go buy an AR illegally and take it to the range and feel safe



I am not trying to skirt the law, I am a law abiding citizen, most of us on here are trying to walk the fine line in CA between owning guns without breaking the law.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:37:29 PM EDT
I am aware of the Survival Enterprises bust (that guy just dug his own hole), and the various busts in Aug 2004. In particular, I'd bet some of the 2004 busts in Reno were for FEDERAL AW violations - even though the law was gonna sunset in September 2004. (I'm pretty sure one of these guys was one I'd warned about preban/postban configuration issues and he told me, "Aww, they ain't bustin' for that.")

There's a very good chance some of these dudes pleaded out for violations of a law that was gonna evaporate in a few months.

The other charge we're discussing here - about a CA guy buying an AK in Reno - sounds true. The fact that the dealer was busted in Reno sounds right, as interstate transfers to non-FFL Californians are of course illegal. The CA buyer is screwed in multiple ways since he's been likly popped for illegal unreg'd AW possession, illegal AW transportation, and illegal AW import. Plus there could also be a Fed charge of illegal interstate transfer (i.e., unmediated by FFL dealer).

I dunno if DOJ is looking at the lowest level for one or two hicap mag purchases, but I do believe some DOJ agents go there. They are probably looking for illegal transactions and illegal guns (AWs) being acquired. You should conduct yourself there like you're being watched, as you probably are.

As far as reading license plates in the lot, it's pretty easy to see "California" on there, and know that 3X per year, 70% of the CA plates at the Reno Hilton are for the Big Reno Show. There is software readily available (and sold iva Remington's LE group!) that runs on laptops that can process images and extract license plate numbers. A laptop w/PC camera in a car could readily scan license plates at hotel entry/exit and get a list of details on persons attending (esp felons, which might be a DOJ enforcment focus/target ).





Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:32:45 PM EDT
Seems like it would be pretty easy to check the Nevada County, CA superior court docket for a case matching this description. It's public record.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:05:05 PM EDT
I don't doubt that Pthfndr is repeating exactly what he heard but I think the the rumor mill has ground this fine and spread it wide. It doesn't pass the smell test.

Do you realize the resources it would require from DOJ, not to mention the cunning intelligence? I believe DOJ would like us to accept this as the truth. Hell, they may have even started the rumor. If it were true, I would say the morons are getting what they deserve. The laws may be unjust but if you have a huge set of brass cahones and you dangle them in front of Big Brothers face he may clamp down on them.

If any kind of documentation is found about this I will be the first to appologize to the people with their tin foil hats on too tight. hrm
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:03:33 AM EDT
I'm a NV resident and one of my cars still has caliban plates on it.

If a CAL DOJ agent stopped me at a NV gunshow I'd tell him to lick my sack.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:10:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MikeSearson:
I'm a NV resident and one of my cars still has caliban plates on it.

If a CAL DOJ agent stopped me at a NV gunshow I'd tell him to lick my sack.



Careful! If it's a CALIFORNIA DOJ agent, he just MIGHT, depending on where in California he's from..
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WizardOfAhs:

Originally Posted By MikeSearson:
I'm a NV resident and one of my cars still has caliban plates on it.

If a CAL DOJ agent stopped me at a NV gunshow I'd tell him to lick my sack.



Careful! If it's a CALIFORNIA DOJ agent, he just MIGHT, depending on where in California he's from..



LOL
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:50:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
You or others might grill the attorney who told him about it for case number, more details, etc. Knowing this guy I can see where he wouldn't. If there was issues still pending on the case I can also see where the attorney might not elaborate on the details at this time.



If the case was still pending, the attorney should be disbarred for even talking about it in this way.

If the case has been settled (even if it hasn't been settled), the details of the case are public information.

Somehow, names and docket numbers never accompany these stories (which, by the way, seem to originate in Las Vegas and Phoenix, in addition to Reno; exactly the same story).

On the other hand, having witnessed the shitstorm accompanying the arrest of Ilya of On Target Range here in Orange County, I won't believe for a moment that the California DoJ would make an arrest like this without having CNN, the network news and the Los Angeles Times standing by to get all the details, complete with horrified canned responses from Lockyer and Feinstein.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:59:00 AM EDT
Remember the stupidity factor gets involved, if someboddy was so stupid to get involved in something like this as a buyer and he had no OTHER problems, highly unlikely a major problem, hence the high BS probability. But if the guy was a BG in other ways, then yeah the BS goes down and the likelihood of surveilance goes way up.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 11:19:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:20:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
One problem with these gun show stings is that they're highly sensationalized front page news, but any resulting prosecutions are back page news, if reported at all.

Anyone remember the infamous Pomona gun show sting? Four guys were busted, and the AG put on a press conference displaying the bad weapons. Apparently wasn't sensational enough so a DOJ agent loaned his department issued HK for the media to ooooh and ahhhh over.

It was on most CA TV news and in newspapers. They reported finding assault weapons, rocket launchers, flame throwers, etc all being sold in public. Caused quite a stir among the sheeple. Turned out the so-called "assault weapons" weren't illegal, the rocket launchers were empty LAWS tubes (not illegal), and flame throwers aren't illegal to own (Igniters are regulated, however flame throwers are not regulated and are legal to own).

All charges were dropped against three of the four busted, and I suspect charges were dropped against the fourth guy but I was unable to confirm it. That was not reported in the press or on TV. It was all a big sham, and in fact led to LA County banning gun shows from Pomona fairgrounds.



I remember that one. One of the charges stemmed from selling complete H&K burst & auto fire control groups. At least one of the involved dealers moved out of Cali after that.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 1:22:34 PM EDT
FOPA of 1986.

Federal Law always trumps state law........a good attorney, and they'll walk.

I call, BS on that story.

If they followed him home, got a warrant after, on their evidence or probable cause.....then I'd believe it.

But pulling them over, right when they cross the state line? BS

There was some good in FOPA and all the thousands of gun laws across the US and secured our legal rights on our nations highways/biways.......despite outlawing legal transferables after 5/19......
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:09:58 PM EDT
If they saw them buying contraband, followed them back over the line and pulled them over, that would be a legal bust. Sufficient PC. If they just saw them leaving the parking lot, Insufficient PC.

Possible motives for making busts on returnees from Reno? Chokepoint, yah more or less gotta go over 80, yeah there are a few other routes but most guys are going to use 80. Also the resultant publicity is going to discourage others from trying to import illegal items, or if they do at least re-think where they are going to buy them and in what quantities. I might decide to pick up a 30 round magh at a store in Carson City etc, but I doubt I would even consider buying a bunch of stuff at the show.

In other words like it or not, the DoJ is tasked by the people of CA, to enforce the laws of the state of CA (whine and cry someplace else, that's what they do), and if you are going to break the laws and make it easy for them to catch you, why are you surprised that they take advantage of your stupidity?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:56:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 8:57:03 PM EDT by pieeater]

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
Stopped by my local funstore today to pick up the 17 off list lowers I ordered and had an interesting conversation with the owner. A very knowledgeable guy. Knows his stuff and laws etc. Has an AW sellers permit, supplies the local police and sheriff with firearms and works on their rifles. Not full of BS.

The subject of the Reno show came up and he told me about a CA resident that bought an AK there. The story was the DOJ somehow witnessed the transaction and either from surveilence cameras in the lot of visual surveilence knew the guys car had CA plates. They followed him and after he crossed the CA state line was stopped and arrested in Truckee. Subsequently while he was in custody the DOJ got a warrant and searched his home and removed all of his firearms.

He is awaiting trial on AW related charges. The seller was also arrested by the ATF at the show. Not sure what the charges were on that. My gunstore guy could not give any more details than that, other than to say the person who told him said the buyer will probably lose hos right to own firearms for a while.

When I asked him where he heard this from (because we all know how the rumor mill is), he told me he heard it direct from the buyers ATTORNEY - who happens to be one of his customers. It was the first CONFIRMED DOJ bust of a CA buyer that he knows of.

ETA: One more thing. The guy busted was NOT some young gang banger. He was a middle aged (maybe older) guy who had a fairly large collection of firearms already. Now he has none.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:32:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pieeater:

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
Stopped by my local funstore today to pick up the 17 off list lowers I ordered and had an interesting conversation with the owner. A very knowledgeable guy. Knows his stuff and laws etc. Has an AW sellers permit, supplies the local police and sheriff with firearms and works on their rifles. Not full of BS.

The subject of the Reno show came up and he told me about a CA resident that bought an AK there. The story was the DOJ somehow witnessed the transaction and either from surveilence cameras in the lot of visual surveilence knew the guys car had CA plates. They followed him and after he crossed the CA state line was stopped and arrested in Truckee. Subsequently while he was in custody the DOJ got a warrant and searched his home and removed all of his firearms.

He is awaiting trial on AW related charges. The seller was also arrested by the ATF at the show. Not sure what the charges were on that. My gunstore guy could not give any more details than that, other than to say the person who told him said the buyer will probably lose hos right to own firearms for a while.

When I asked him where he heard this from (because we all know how the rumor mill is), he told me he heard it direct from the buyers ATTORNEY - who happens to be one of his customers. It was the first CONFIRMED DOJ bust of a CA buyer that he knows of.

ETA: One more thing. The guy busted was NOT some young gang banger. He was a middle aged (maybe older) guy who had a fairly large collection of firearms already. Now he has none.




LOL. No more lowers for me.

BTW, did you enjoy your rainy new years weekend in the mountains?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:27:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

Originally Posted By pieeater:

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
Stopped by my local funstore today to pick up the 17 off list lowers I ordered and had an interesting conversation with the owner. A very knowledgeable guy. Knows his stuff and laws etc. Has an AW sellers permit, supplies the local police and sheriff with firearms and works on their rifles. Not full of BS.

The subject of the Reno show came up and he told me about a CA resident that bought an AK there. The story was the DOJ somehow witnessed the transaction and either from surveilence cameras in the lot of visual surveilence knew the guys car had CA plates. They followed him and after he crossed the CA state line was stopped and arrested in Truckee. Subsequently while he was in custody the DOJ got a warrant and searched his home and removed all of his firearms.

He is awaiting trial on AW related charges. The seller was also arrested by the ATF at the show. Not sure what the charges were on that. My gunstore guy could not give any more details than that, other than to say the person who told him said the buyer will probably lose hos right to own firearms for a while.

When I asked him where he heard this from (because we all know how the rumor mill is), he told me he heard it direct from the buyers ATTORNEY - who happens to be one of his customers. It was the first CONFIRMED DOJ bust of a CA buyer that he knows of.

ETA: One more thing. The guy busted was NOT some young gang banger. He was a middle aged (maybe older) guy who had a fairly large collection of firearms already. Now he has none.




LOL. No more lowers for me.

BTW, did you enjoy your rainy new years weekend in the mountains?



Yeah, had a great time! We drove all over the place during the storm never had a problem. Stayed at my sis inlaw new years eve[by Volcano] and had a big bonfire in their fire pit. Had to drive to find some snow for the kids though, snow level was pretty high.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:33:05 PM EDT
BTW Federal Law does not always trump state law.

FOPA applies to out of staters legitimately traveling through the state, any state, not to CA residents traveling in state.

Also, in a lot of areas where the states have constitutional authority to regulate, state law trumps Federal. In fact I'ld be willing to bet that state laws are foremost in most areas outside of interstate commerce.

Almost all vehicle, driver and highway laws are state superior. Most Voting laws are state laws, the Feds mandate minimums and state laws can improve or worsen depending on your point of view. Labor Standards have a base Federal requirement, and all states can add more, etc etc
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