Does anyone know of a specific FFL in the Inland Empire or Orange County willing to do transfers? Looks like we have dealers willing and able to ship, but I'm having a hard time finding an FFL in the area who will answer the phone. I'm in Riverside.

Please IM me if there is anyone open this week.

Thanks,
Mike

Talonarms_M...whats the best way to claim one of those lowers (assuming they havent all been spoken for already)? I've got an FFL lined up, just need a supplier. Thanks.

Why don't you guys road trip to Nevada to buy a lower? Is it illegal to bring one in?

Quoted: Why don't you guys road trip to Nevada to buy a lower? Is it illegal to bring one in?

Fed and state law illegal.

Under Federal law the buyer from State A can only purchase long arms from an FFL in State B at his place of business. The transaction must comply with the laws of both State A and B. Particularly the State of buyer A's residence.

CA law states that no AW's can be imported. Also states that most transfers (Interfamily and most C&R are exempt) have to go through a CA FFL and are subject to the 10 day wait.

We can't even buy new handguns from out of state unless they're on the State's "Safety" certified roster.

Back when the AW ban was passed, I decided to move my ARs out of the state rather than registering them. I haven't followed AR-in-CA topics much since then, until a posting on another gun forum led me to this thread.

I had heard of the FAB10 lower, but never got around to buying one. I didn't know about the practice of importing an off-list stripped receiver, installing a fixed 10 round magazine kit, and then building a non-AW AR out of it. This paragraph in the FAQ linked to above was particularly interesting:

Another vendor has received permission from CA DOJ to weld up Bushmaster and Colt lower receivers’ magazine wells; while actually ”named” as banned weapons, these latter guns/receivers are regarded as so substantively different from their original design that they’re no longer considered to be named banned assault weapons anymore, and are as legal to possess/transfer as any other rifle in California.  That is, these permanent and approved modifications have rendered their banned names moot.

That has me wondering whether it would be legal to import a listed AR if a fixed 10-round magazine was permanently installed before the rifle was brought into the state. In other words, could I bring back my ARs if I permanently installed fixed 10-round mags into them outside of CA?

If so, my next question would be about what would be accepted as a permanent modification. Welding the aluminum mag well shut would be beyond my skills and equipment, but screwing down the mag catch so it could not be depressed and welding a retaining nut onto its shaft in place of the original button could be pretty easy (hmm, it's been so long since I've handled an AR that I don't remember whether the mag catch shaft is aluminum or steel). Another option in addition to or in place of that might be to rivet the magazine into place with one or more solid rivets through holes drilled in the mag well. I wonder whether such modifications would be considered to be permanent enough, and to change the weapon enough to make the receiver origin and markings irrelevant.

Do any of y'all know whether this possibility has been investigated before? Maybe a letter to the CA DOJ asking for a ruling would be in order if it hasn't been. I figured I'd sign up here and ask y'all first.

So, what do y'all think?

I know that with my fab 10 they have a small rivet in the front bottom of the mag well. When i bought it it came with a letter from the doj and the atf and the wording states that the doj was pleased with the addition of the rivet - in their words "to make sure that the magazine is not detachable".

Quoted: That has me wondering whether it would be legal to import a listed AR if a fixed 10-round magazine was permanently installed before the rifle was brought into the state. In other words, could I bring back my ARs if I permanently installed fixed 10-round mags into them outside of CA?

NO, it would not be legal to bring in (IMPORT) an ALREADY listed lower and modify it. Such is already addressed in the penal code and at DOJ's website. (Which is a JOKE, really. Who thinks THAT stuff up?)

Edited for content

Can someone PM me a supplier and an FFL contact in OC/Inland Empire.  I'm cash in hand ready to go.

WizardOfAhs wrote:

NO, it would not be legal to bring in (IMPORT) an ALREADY listed lower and modify it. Such is already addressed in the penal code and at DOJ's website.

I was not asking about importing a listed lower and then modifying it (which would clearly be illegal, at least for somebody without the proper licenses, permits, etc. to fiddle about with AWs, MGs, etc. in CA); I was asking about permanently modifying it first, and then importing it. That distinction may be significant:

Because at least one manufacturer apparently has a CA DOJ-approved modification of listed Bushmaster receivers which renders them non-restricted, non-AW receviers, it seems to me that there is a precendent that it is possible to modify a listed receiver sufficently to make it a legal fixed-magazine receiver in the eyes of the CA DOJ. If such an approved permanent modification was made outside of CA before importing it, then no importation of a restricted AW would occur.

I am curious about whether such a modification would need to be as severe as welding the bottom of the mag well shut, or whether it might be sufficient to do something somewhat simpler such as permanently fastening a 10-round magazine inside the receiver, or installing a "fixed mag/tool required"magazine catch (similar to the ones used with off-list receivers to make them into non-AW guns) in a manner such that it's a permanent part of the receiver (i.e., it would be necessary to cut/grind/drill it out to remove it).

Maybe the answer is simply "no", but this seems reasonable (ha!) based on what I've read in that CA AR FAQ:

a_california_arak.htm

I am thinking about writing a letter to CA DOJ to ask them for a ruling or opinion about this, but I brought up the topic here first in case it's already been hashed out while I wasn't looking. I have a specific permanent modification in mind that I may propose to them which would be a lot easier than welding the mag well shut if the CA DOJ determined that it would be sufficient. It's quite possible (heck, probably even likely) that they would not approve my idea. In any case, I would not consider importing any restricted receiver without clear prior approval from the CA DOJ... please do not think for even a moment that I'm suggesting any illegal activity by me or anybody else!

Quoted: *SNIP* I was not asking about importing a listed lower and then modifying it (which would clearly be illegal, at least for somebody without the proper licenses, permits, etc. to fiddle about with AWs, MGs, etc. in CA); I was asking about permanently modifying it first, and then importing it. That distinction may be significant: *UNSNIP*

I do not believe so, I am under the impression that since that the penal code already addresses modifying an already banned/listed "assault weapon" to remove a "feature" under SB23 would STILL render it unlawful regardless of where the midification took place as it is already a "LISTED" lower (IMPORTING an assault weapon). A DOJ letter as you mentioned would be the final ruling. Remember, think "California logic". It doesn't have to make sense as long as it's a "LAW".

Ok, so I've read the calnet faq and the threads here.
I live in San Diego, and need an ffl and a source for the reciever.  

Just to make sure we all understand, and to make sure I do too.

What we are talking about is a reciever that for now, we can leave evil feature-less or convert to a fixed ten rounder.  And we are hoping that AFTER  we legally obtain the reciever, the doj will call the reciever as an assault weapon so we can then register it  within and do as we please with it.

And the doj says that they DO intend to declare the recievers illegal quickly.

So sure, I'm in.

Please help me with the ffl and a stocking dealer for the reciever thanks, I'm in SAN DIEGO.

Quoted: Ok, so I've read the calnet faq and the threads here. I live in San Diego, and need an ffl and a source for the reciever.   Just to make sure we all understand, and to make sure I do too. What we are talking about is a reciever that for now, we can leave evil feature-less or convert to a fixed ten rounder.

Apparently.

And we are hoping that AFTER  we legally obtain the reciever, the doj will call the reciever as an assault weapon so we can then register it  within and do as we please with it.

Or DOJ may do a SKS-D like buy back, or claim you can register and keep the lower but assembling it into a complete rifle is "manufacturing" an assault weapon.

And the doj says that they DO intend to declare the recievers illegal quickly.

Even though that would be counterproductive.  The smart response from DOJ from the aspect of what is the least amount of work for them, while minimizing the number of AW in the state, is to do nothing. That way the number of legally registered "AW's" remains fixed, and every johny come lately is stuck with a FABforgery.

Still, all I have now is the bushy fab forgery, and 200 ish bucks for a chance at at real gun is a gamble I'm willing to take.

I just need the supplier and an ffl for San Diego.If I got stuck with it I could just build a post ban with no grip(or maybe a 22).

Quoted: Still, all I have now is the bushy fab forgery, and 200 ish bucks for a chance at at real gun is a gamble I'm willing to take. I just need the supplier and an ffl for San Diego. If I got stuck with it I could just build a post ban with no grip(or maybe a 22).

Exactly.  A couple hundred bucks for a few receivers that at worst, become fully funtional ARs minus pistol grip is not bad.  AR15fan has been very negative of this since the get go, not exactly sure why.  Regarding an FFL, those may be a little harder to find now since a lot of them don't want their info given out, but you'll probably find one if you keep looking.  I'll send you a pm regarding a supplier.

Quoted: Quoted: AR15fan has been very negative of this since the get go, not exactly sure why.

1.  It seems silly to spend $200.00 plus a parts kit to make a nuetered rifle.  Money better spent on a M1A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine.

2. People are going to knowingly cross the line and go to jail.  When you buy 5 lowers, build one into a FABforgery and the other four are sitting just sitting there.  Somebody from this board is going to assemble a rifle in a banned configuration.  Normally i would say, "fuck em".  But being in the industry I know that 90% of the time that person will flip and set up his friends to work off his case. Its happened before, its happening now, and it will happen again. I dont want to EE and the Burrow/SCAR Shoots to become a place to work off you weapons violation by dragging down your friends (any more than has already occured).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AR15fan has been very negative of this since the get go, not exactly sure why.   1. It seems silly to spend $200.00 plus a parts kit to make a nuetered rifle. Money better spent on a M1A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine. 2. People are going to knowingly cross the line and go to jail. When you buy 5 lowers, build one into a FABforgery and the other four are sitting just sitting there. Somebody from this board is going to assemble a rifle in a banned configuration. Normally i would say, "fuck em". But being in the industry I know that 90% of the time that person will flip and set up his friends to work off his case. Its happened before, its happening now, and it will happen again. I dont want to EE and the Burrow/SCAR Shoots to become a place to work off you weapons violation by dragging down your friends (any more than has already occured).

1.  It seems silly to spend $200.00 plus a parts kit to make a nuetered rifle.  Money better spent on a M1A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine.

$200 will get you two stripped receivers, but that is not really the issue.  It is a very, very small price to pay for the possiblitiy of having a fully legal complete AR15 if the DOJ does add it to the list (as they have stated they will do but surely nothing is in stone).  If it does not pan out, you could always build these into pinned mag types, pistol gripless types, or just sell them to somebody out of state.  I, for one, am only buying them to have a fully legal pinned mag AR.  If the DOJ acts, then so be it.

As for #2, I can't really comment on what people may or may not do, but completing an illegal rifle and showing off it to a nontrustworthy person isn't very intelligent.    It's not like you need these receivers to make an illegal weapon.  FAL receivers have been around for a long time, in fact, M1A and Mini-14/30s can be easily made into "evil assault weapons" with the purchase of a new stock.

Quoted: $200 will get you two stripped receivers, but that is not really the issue.  It is a very, very small price to pay for the possiblitiy of having a fully legal complete AR15 if the DOJ does add it to the list (as they have stated they will do but surely nothing is in stone).  If it does not pan out, you could always build these into pinned mag types, pistol gripless types, or just sell them to somebody out of state.  I, for one, am only buying them to have a fully legal pinned mag AR.  If the DOJ acts, then so be it. As for #2, I can't really comment on what people may or may not do, but completing an illegal rifle and showing off it to a nontrustworthy person isn't very intelligent.    It's not like you need these receivers to make an illegal weapon.  FAL receivers have been around for a long time, in fact, M1A and Mini-14/30s can be easily made into "evil assault weapons" with the purchase of a new stock.

That's so true, man. Most of those who bought such lowers are looking for SB-23 compliant rifles. Not to creat new illegal AWs.

However, some people can not control their stupidity to build new AWs.  Who gonna stupid enough to show an unregistered AW in public?

You're both right, of course.

Kinda like high cap mags for action sports, we know what to do to "get" them, and everyone has been doing it since the ban.  But thou shalt not discuss it openly.  Not smart.

ar fan is trying to keep everything as legit as he can to keep people and (mostly) the shooting community safe from unwanted attention.  But he also sounds like someone who already has one.  

But if you don't have a detachable mag ar, this deal is kinda like buying a $100-$200 raffle ticket,  that has a big payout and a good chance of paying off.  

I agree that some morons will do crap that is illegal, and they may pay for it.  But as they say in boot camp, STUPID HURTS.  Either you will get smart or pay t he consequences.  I love living in a (kinda) free society where you can still step on your crank handle, if you so choose.

I would be happy enough to have a gripless post ban that I could stuff a regular mag into, or be able to convert to a 6.8 or 7.62x39 ten round pinned if my little heart so desired...

I'll talk to a local ffl and see if I can have him help my out.

Quoted: Who gonna stupid enough to show an unregistered AW in public?

I had an AR15.com member show up to a shoot I hosted once with a lightning-link.  Another time a member here brought a friend who showed up with an SBR.

I can see people buying one and hoping DOJ adds to to the list so they can assemble it into a banned configuration.  However I think there is a slight chance that DOJ's response may be a SKS-D like buy back or issue some "opinion" to the California district attorneys that you can keep and register the new lowers, but assembly is "manufacturing" an AW.

I fail to see the point of the guys who are buying 15 or 50 like some of the claims I saw on CAL guns. Someone with 50 stripped lowers might build a FAB10 clone.  But eventually he's going to build and M4 clone or SBR too. Odds are he will never get caught.  But all it takes is a pissed off woman, a house fire, or car crash and those guns might come under scrutiny.  The guy at On Target got busted because a Marine crashed his motorcycle riding back to base with his pistol grip less M96 slung over his back.  Someone investigated where he got the rifle, DOJ did a compliance inspection and arrested the owners son.  Later the court said the M96 was okay, but other stuff they found in the store was not.  The last time I saw heard from him he had just got booked into OCJ on a probation violation for possession of a can of pepper spray and some loose rounds of ammo!

Most people on the gun boards have no idea just how often "law abiding" people in the gun culture get busted.  On target, B&E guns, Southland Guns, One-Eyed-Jack, The unnamed AR15.com member from Vegas, Bob Stewart, Charlie Puckett are all ones I can recall off the top of my head.  I'm sure every one of them though "it will never happen to me, I'm too careful."

I know of two people who were busted leaving Burrow Canyon. It turns out the San Bernardino DA is perfectly willing to prosecute people for simple possession of Hicap mags in the person in possession of them cannit prove they bought them prior to the ban. Anyone that can read know the penal code doesnt even allow arrest for simple possession of hicaps.  But that hasnt stoped the DA there of using a constructive possession like arguement, of he had the mags, he cant prove he had them prior to 2000, so he must have bought them after the ban in violation of the law.

Quoted: But if you don't have a detachable mag ar, this deal is kinda like buying a $100-$200 raffle ticket,  that has a big payout and a good chance of paying off.

Thats a good way of looking at it.  Now what possible motivation do you see for someone who buys a dozen or more?  Do you really think he's planning to build 12 FAB10 clones?

Someone who buys one is taking a chance that I can understand the logic of.  Someone that is buying in bulk likely has another agenda and is hoping to fly under the radar via cover of the guys buying one with lawfull intent.

Now when that guy gets popped is he going to man up and take the hit?  Or is he going to advertise his new Cali compliant pistol grip that CALDOJ helped him think up, sell them online and hand his customer list over to DOJ to work off his case. "Sir, we see you bought a XM13 pistol grip from Dumbass36 on AR15.com Its not a approved design and you are under arrest for manufacturing an assault weapon."

Call me paranoid but for 20 months thats what i did to bank robbers, meth dealers and identity thieves. I know DOJ and BATF uses the same tactics for gun law violations.

Quoted: Quoted: But if you don't have a detachable mag ar, this deal is kinda like buying a $100-$200 raffle ticket,  that has a big payout and a good chance of paying off.   Thats a good way of looking at it.  Now what possible motivation do you see for someone who buys a dozen or more?  Do you really think he's planning to build 12 FAB10 clones? Someone who buys one is taking a chance that I can understand the logic of.  Someone that is buying in bulk likely has another agenda and is hoping to fly under the radar via cover of the guys buying one with lawfull intent. Now when that guy gets popped is he going to man up and take the hit?  Or is he going to advertise his new Cali compliant pistol grip that CALDOJ helped him think up, sell them online and hand his customer list over to DOJ to work off his case. "Sir, we see you bought a XM13 pistol grip from Dumbass36 on AR15.com Its not a approved design and you are under arrest for manufacturing an assault weapon." Call me paranoid but for 20 months thats what i did to bank robbers, meth dealers and identity thieves. I know DOJ and BATF uses the same tactics for gun law violations.

I bought more than one, hoping to reg em' for a 9mm, 6.8, 5.56 etc.  I also am tryin gto find out if its legal to co-reg them under my sons names.  The DOJ will get paperwork on all mine no matter how many I buy.

Quoted:  I also am tryin gto find out if its legal to co-reg them under my sons names.

Under the last registration co-registration was allowed only for adult family members living in the same household.

Quoted: I bought more than one, hoping to reg em' for a 9mm, 6.8, 5.56 etc.  I also am tryin gto find out if its legal to co-reg them under my sons names.  The DOJ will get paperwork on all mine no matter how many I buy.

If they did it the same way as the last (SB23) reg paperwork, you do NOT need to specify any caliber. You can put "various" on the line for caliber.

That's exactly what my (adult) son and I did for all of are AR receivers and the reg paperwork came back ok'd that way.

Quoted:... AR15fan has been very negative of this since the get go, not exactly sure why.....

He's not the only one. I have been also. Granted both of us probably have all the registered stuff we want (or can afford). But I think it's good that someone play the Devil's Advocate if for no other reason than to make people think hard about what and why they are buying, and the future ramifications.

I believe AR15fan looks at what the DOJ, and people, will do through the eyes of a LEO who sees what happens from the side of "The Law".

I happen to agree with him when he asks what someone plans to do with 10-50 lower receivers. Especially if the DOJ does NOT add any of them to "The List".

But, I do hope that for all of you who for whatever reason were not able to have an AR before the last reg period went into effect that things go as you wish.

Months ago, I saw a legal, fixed mag, all composite, weird colored, .223 at a local shop. I've always wanted the style of rifle, but these felt really cheap and the price was high. I found out about off list, good quality lowers just recently.
I'm filing my DROs for 2 lowers tomorrow. At the least, I will have 2 pretty quality 10 round, fixed mag, .223 rifles. I am really friggen' excited about it!

Quoted: I know of two people who were busted leaving Burrow Canyon. It turns out the San Bernardino DA is perfectly willing to prosecute people for simple possession of Hicap mags in the person in possession of them cannit prove they bought them prior to the ban. Anyone that can read know the penal code doesnt even allow arrest for simple possession of hicaps.  But that hasnt stoped the DA there of using a constructive possession like arguement, of he had the mags, he cant prove he had them prior to 2000, so he must have bought them after the ban in violation of the law.

Fuck that guy and the horse he rode in on.

It's because I could foresee just that kind of thing happening that I have 2 receipts in my safe dated from 1998-1999 that are from Bushmaster and DPMS for magazine orders I placed.

Now those receipts only show that I bought 8 magazines total, out of the many that I own.    I would have kept the other receipts as well but when was the last time you saw a gunshows or gunshops giving out itemized invoice type receipts.


Ofcourse even trying to defend oneself with such evidence is likely to be a fruitless proposition if you decided to fight it would be terribly expensive.    I hope the DA rots in hell with satan ramming a red hot poker in his ass.

Yes, more that 2 or 3  recievers is kinda ridiculous, kinda like drugs, is it for personal use, or intent to sell...  And if someone showed up to a match that I was at, with an illegal gun, they would be invited to leave immediatly.  Now if they were legit, that is one thing, but why would you use a lightning link if you were legit?  

I still need to cruise the local ffls and see what they say, any tips on convincing them?

Quoted: I still need to cruise the local ffls and see what they say, any tips on convincing them?

DO NOT CONVINCE ANYONE. Just FIND the willing one!

Where are you, man? If you are around San Jose, IM me. I have a FFL friend who is still DROSing receivers.

As for the receivers, there are still sellers on gunbroker.com willing to ship them to Kali.

Time is sliping. Good luck!

Thanks, I'm asking around now.  I'm in SD not San Jose, but thanks for asking.

Ok, I think I have it but just to be sure...

1. Buy lower reciever.

2. Register as a legal, detachable mag, reciever since it's not on the "bad" list.

3. Build it into whatever I want before the put it on the "bad" list.

Do I have that right? If not please point out the missunderstoods.

Quoted: Ok, I think I have it but just to be sure... 1. Buy lower reciever. 2. Register as Purchase and configure as a SB-23 Compliant legal, 10 round non-detachable mag, reciever since it's not on the "bad" list. 3. Build it into whatever I want before the put it on the "bad" list. 3. IF they Ban it configure it as you like after you get your registration papers back. Do I have that right? If not please point out the missunderstoods.

See Red.

Thanks Halfmoon. Thought the way I put it sounded to easy. Probably would be 4 pages if it was that simple.

Where can I find the info about how to configure it to SB-23 compliant?

Quoted: Ok, I think I have it but just to be sure... 1. Buy lower reciever. 2. Register as a legal, detachable mag, reciever since it's not on the "bad" list. 3. Build it into whatever I want before the put it on the "bad" list. Do I have that right? If not please point out the missunderstoods.

This is the kind of thing AR15fan and I are talking about!

What ErinMT thought he could do would in fact be illegal. How many others that post, or just lurk and read, are confused about what they can and can't do. Everyone really needs to be on their toes about this stuff.

Whether by intention, or misinterpretation, odds are someone(s) will build an illegal configuration. You can say "tough for them" if they get caught, but it reflects on all of us and only brings the AW back into the forefront of the media and politicians.

Quoted: Thanks Halfmoon. Thought the way I put it sounded to easy. Probably would be 4 pages if it was that simple. Where can I find the info about how to configure it to SB-23 compliant?

See here, item #9:

www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

Quoted: Quoted: Ok, I think I have it but just to be sure... 1. Buy lower reciever. 2. Register as a legal, detachable mag, reciever since it's not on the "bad" list. 3. Build it into whatever I want before the put it on the "bad" list. Do I have that right? If not please point out the missunderstoods. This is the kind of thing AR15fan and I are talking about! What ErinMT thought he could do would in fact be illegal. How many others that post, or just lurk and read, are confused about what they can and can't do. Everyone really needs to be on their toes about this stuff. Whether by intention, or misinterpretation, odds are someone(s) will build an illegal configuration. You can say "tough for them" if they get caught, but it reflects on all of us and only brings the AW back into the forefront of the media and politicians.

Why I ask when I have missunderstoods.

Jail holds no interest for me.

Thank you for the link M4-guy.

If you don't understand the law, walk away from this, and if you are planning to make something illegal, you get what you deserve.  You pays your money and you takes your chances.  Remember, STUPID HURTS!!!

i think , if i recall correctly, someone from cali posted "new 223 pics."  noone asked if this was one of the newly acquired ones.  that point seems to have went untouched. it was fully built..  

Quoted: i think , if i recall correctly, someone from cali posted "new 223 pics."  noone asked if this was one of the newly acquired ones.  that point seems to have went untouched. it was fully built..

That was a fixed mag new lower.

Quoted: Quoted: i think , if i recall correctly, someone from cali posted "new 223 pics."  noone asked if this was one of the newly acquired ones.  that point seems to have went untouched. it was fully built..   That was a fixed mag new lower.

That was this one. Which was done with a NUT & BOLT, which the DOJ said did not satisfy the requirement for a permantly attached 10 round mag in a AR lower receiver.

That was this one. Which was done with a NUT & BOLT, which the DOJ said did not satisfy the requirement for a permantly attached 10 round mag in a AR lower receiver.

Please show me anything in writing that this is illegal.   I believe this was from a casual conversation with a nontechnical person.

[BTW, it is not an AR lower receiver ("series" member) until it becomes 'identified' as series member and Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11 is updated - until that point, it is yet another semiauto rifle receiver.  To be at all usable, it must have a nondetachable (fixed) magazine. ]

The broad basic idea is to require substantial "tools + time" to change a mag or load, and that the mag can't be removed or reinserted without same, and that mag can't be changed, removed, or reinserted in normal operational course of using the rifle.

In fact, the DOJ regulatory standard for detachable magazine is section Calif Code of Regulation section 978.20(a):

978.20(a)  -  "Detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool required.  A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.  Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips,  or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine."

The exact wording above directly states that since a tool is required, it is not a detachable mag.

Now, a simple screw that could loosen on its own and be hand-tightened might be in a grey area.  A Allen nut below surface, perhaps w/lockwasher and green Glyptol (LockTite)  and a mag catch button flush with lower receiver surface, would suffice nicely.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

Quoted: That was this one. Which was done with a NUT & BOLT, which the DOJ said did not satisfy the requirement for a permantly attached 10 round mag in a AR lower receiver. Please show me anything in writing that this is illegal.   I believe this was from a casual conversation with a nontechnical person. [BTW, it is not an AR lower receiver ("series" member) until it becomes 'identified' as series member and Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11 is updated - until that point, it is yet another semiauto rifle receiver.  To be at all usable, it must have a nondetachable (fixed) magazine. ] The broad basic idea is to require substantial "tools + time" to change a mag or load, and that the mag can't be removed or reinserted without same, and that mag can't be changed, removed, or reinserted in normal operational course of using the rifle. In fact, the DOJ regulatory standard for detachable magazine is section Calif Code of Regulation section 978.20(a): 978.20(a)  -  "Detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool required.  A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.  Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips,  or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine." The exact wording above directly states that since a tool is required, it is not a detachable mag. Now, a simple screw that could loosen on its own and be hand-tightened might be in a grey area.  A Allen nut below surface, perhaps w/lockwasher and green Glyptol (LockTite)  and a mag catch button flush with lower receiver surface, would suffice nicely. Bill Wiese San Jose, CA

Tell it to one of the 58 DAs and jury from the witness stand. I personally don't have a problem with it.

Technical regulatory standards such as the fixed mag gig are the specific sphere of expertise/ knowledge/ authority, etc of the respective agency - DOJ Firearms Division.  There's no way a DA could stand against this (unless a zillion other things went wrong).

Ever so slightly more likely is a bad DA + bad judge in a metro area ignoring Harrott and you have to take this to appeal to get it hammered down.  So be mellow.

However, risk is minimized when storing lowers or fixed-mag rifles out of bad counties until declared as AWs.  Then, PC 12280(g) protects against charges of possession of unreg'd AWs during the 90 day reg period (though use care transporting it, as it's an AW and you don't want to violate AW transport laws).  I don't see any backwards-looking prosecutions out of this once they're reg'd AWs.

Bill W
San Jose

Quoted: Ever so slightly more likely is a bad DA + bad judge in a metro area ignoring Harrott and you have to take this to appeal to get it hammered down.  So be mellow. Bill W San Jose

Bad = inept, incompetant, corrupt, politically motivated?

This is the kind of situation I was aimming my sarcasm at. I know it's remote. BUT, that's EXACTLY the reference the DOJ letters to the FFLs used. I know. I saw 2 of the letters personally. Actually read them myself, in person, even held one of them.

Isn't that one of the reasons why so many suppliers of lowers backed out? Why Fulton threatened a certain FFL here in CA with charges of theft?

Quoted: Quoted: Ever so slightly more likely is a bad DA + bad judge in a metro area ignoring Harrott and you have to take this to appeal to get it hammered down.  So be mellow. Bill W San Jose Bad = inept, incompetant, corrupt, politically motivated? This is the kind of situation I was aimming my sarcasm at. I know it's remote. BUT, that's EXACTLY the reference the DOJ letters to the FFLs used. I know. I saw 2 of the letters personally. Actually read them myself, in person, even held one of them. Isn't that one of the reasons why so many suppliers of lowers backed out? Why Fulton threatened a certain FFL here in CA with charges of theft?

Yes, that is why Fulton backed out.  They heard about the 58 DAs and got scared.  I believe the DOJ is mentioning the DAs to cover their ass.  If I were an attorney giving free advice I would certainly include the local DA bit even if it was not about firearms.  They can prosecute you for anything.  Personally I do not think that the DOJ is going to forward buyer info to local DAs or anything like that (I'm not wearing my tinfoil hat right now).  My reason?  It would almost certainly create a media event.

ok, here's the deal:

1) Buy an off-list lower receiver, COMPLETELY STRIPPED.
2) Register as an AW AFTER it gets put on the bad list.
3) START getting parts AFTER getting your papers, not one minute before.

I believe the DOJ is mentioning the DAs to cover their ass.  If I were an attorney giving free advice I would certainly include the local DA bit even if it was not about firearms.  They can prosecute you for anything.  Personally I do not think that the DOJ is going to forward buyer info to local DAs or anything like that (I'm not wearing my tinfoil hat right now).  My reason?  It would almost certainly create a media event.

One of the 58 DAs would be working on his own. A DOJ referral to DA (which would be documented in evidence) while the DOJ had issued letters from Deputy AGs saying they were legal would create all sorts of confusion.  If there are any problems in this area it'll be a DA on his own.

Best thing to do is lay low; when 90 day reg period begins 12280(g) protects against unreg'd AW charge, etc.

Quoted: I know of two people who were busted leaving Burrow Canyon. It turns out the San Bernardino DA is perfectly willing to prosecute people for simple possession of Hicap mags in the person in possession of them cannit prove they bought them prior to the ban. Anyone that can read know the penal code doesnt even allow arrest for simple possession of hicaps.  But that hasnt stoped the DA there of using a constructive possession like arguement, of he had the mags, he cant prove he had them prior to 2000, so he must have bought them after the ban in violation of the law.

 Why would the San Bernadino DA be involved if they were busted leaving Burro Canyon, which is well inside LA County? That sounds unlikely that any DA would charge someone for not having receipts, maybe they didn't tell you the full story?

Quoted: ok, here's the deal: 1) Buy an off-list lower receiver, COMPLETELY STRIPPED. 2) Register as an AW AFTER it gets put on the bad list. 3) START getting parts AFTER getting your papers, not one minute before.

This has always been my intention.

What's the hurry that you need to start building the rifle as soon as you buy the lower?  You haven't been able to buy a lower in five years, you can wait a few weeks more to build the rifle up.  Forget about pinned magazines and grips and all that, just put the lowers in a closet until you can register them.

The risk, of course, is that the perfidious DoJ never puts your lowers on the list.  Then you just sell them out of state.

Gee, I hope they aren't reading this and figure that out...
Oh yeah, I sure one is.
Lets not give them directions on how to screw us.

What happens if I find an off-list lower and start the transfer process, but then the DOJ releases a new list that declares it an AW while I'm in my 10-day wait?

Can I legally take possession and submit my registration paperwork after my 10 days is up because I started the DROS before the receiver was listed, or am I screwed because I would not be able to take possession of the newly-listed receiver after my waiting period is up?

Also, I'd like to find an available receiver or two and a cooperative FFL reasonably close to Riverside or Orange County. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated... I only learned about the whole Harrot off-list stripped lower lottery thing very recently. I haven't gotten any responses yet through the other "Use this post..." thread. Maybe my low posting-count is scaring folks away? I can see that a lot of folks are understandably paranoid over this whole thing!

Thanks in advance!