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Posted: 8/29/2017 3:26:45 PM EDT
What’s the chances of a Concealed Weapon Permit holder actually winning a real gunfight? This is a question often asked by at our Advanced Defensive Pistol Classes.

What are your thoughts on this, what do YOU think will make the difference in winning YOUR lethal force confrontation. What you train and practice the most to prepare you for this?
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 4:17:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Situational awareness will get you farther in just about every situation.

Complacency kills, is today your day?
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 5:18:50 PM EDT
[#2]
I'll be training with Robert Keller from Gamut Resolutions  in October. He sums it up nicely in a short video... basically you need to be able to shoot good and do it quickly while having a good head on your shoulders... but most importantly perhaps, having the balls to face your adversary.

In short, all the skills in the world won't do anything for you if you can't maintain your cool during an encounter so your thoughts are clear and your actions deliberate.

I've seen first hand on the streets and in training "great" folks lock up mentally/physical... some for a few seconds, some for a split-second... which is all it takes for your adversary to exploit your weakness.

Do drills under a timer help with this? Some say yes, some say no. Does FoF training help? I think so to some degree.

I say to a degree because I've trained countless individuals in scenario based active shooter training, in fact I will be doing it almost all of September as part of a Federal grant, and I see it all... people who stay calm, read the situation, spot trouble quickly and respond appropriately, and I've seen people become a complete cluster fuck. Some flop on day 1 only to come back strong on day 2 and just the opposite. I see very little in consistency... which is troubling for me as a trainer.

Your mind and the ability to think and problem solve is perhaps your best asset... learn to master it as well as your firearm and you're well on your way to survival.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 5:56:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
What’s the chances of a Concealed Weapon Permit holder actually winning a real gunfight? This is a question often asked by at our Advanced Defensive Pistol Classes.

What are your thoughts on this, what do YOU think will make the difference in winning YOUR lethal force confrontation. What you train and practice the most to prepare you for this?
View Quote


Gunfight...

You mean, like a crack head robbing Denny's while I am eating lunch and he starts going booth to booth taking wallets, watches, and cell phones?

Or do you mean, like a Miami bank robber v FBI gunfight?

I'm old, but give me half a chance and I will win the former.

I'm old, but give me half a chance and I will avoid the latter.

SA beats COM.  Put down your phone and pay attention to what is going on around you, or it will not matter how fast you are!

I was getting my DL renewed the other day.  FHP was guarding the DL office.  I sat and watched the trooper text and play on his cell phone for ten minutes without looking up.  Some SA.  I really wanted to say something to the young lad but I also wanted to walk out with a new DL.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 6:05:19 PM EDT
[#4]
I've never been in a domestic gunfight, but being a combat vet, the biggest hurdle I had to overcome is adrenaline management.  You can train, train, train, know your weapon, know your skills, have a good head on your shoulders, but the moment the shit hits the fan and that adrenaline hits, you get the shakes, mouth dries up, reaction slows, decision making skills deteriorate.  That's the problem I had.  It's hard to really replicate in a training scenario.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 6:50:23 PM EDT
[#5]
In the pizza restaurant I've gone to for 20 years the man behind the counter will take care of it. He has the magnum.

The restaurant is close to the county building and guess what the cops want when they don't have donuts. Pizza.

So it's gun city.

I try to sit with my right hand towards the aisle and facing the door. Doesn't everyone.

At 7-11's I try to park where I don't have to walk past bums.

If the 7-11 doesn't look right it will be passed up. (Bums all over)

People jammed up against the door, outside or inside could be pick pocketers or worse. Pass that one up also.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 7:25:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In the pizza restaurant I've gone to for 20 years the man behind the counter will take care of it. He has the magnum.

The restaurant is close to the county building and guess what the cops want when they don't have donuts. Pizza.

So it's gun city.

I try to sit with my right hand towards the aisle and facing the door. Doesn't everyone.

At 7-11's I try to park where I don't have to walk past bums.

If the 7-11 doesn't look right it will be passed up. (Bums all over)

People jammed up against the door, outside or inside could be pick pocketers or worse. Pass that one up also.
View Quote
I always asked for the same table at lunch.  Having got to know the wait staff pretty well over the years, one waitress asked my why I always sat the the least favorite table in the restaurant.

We had chatted often and I knew her Mom was a deputy sheriff.

I told her that my favorite table was next to the emergency exit, my back was against the wall, and it faced the entrance/cash register.  I told her to tell her Mom what I said and her Mom would explain.  She said she was not a dumb blonde and didn't need her Mom to explain.  I never had any trouble getting my favorite table again.  Usually accompanied with a wink and a nod.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:16:21 AM EDT
[#7]
I agree that SA...is without question important. If I don't get into the fight, I can not lose it! However, what if?  What if I screw up and lets be honest, if your in a civilian gun fight you probably screwed up.  

First I think you need unconscious competency with your chosen handgun (should have this with all weapons you intend to carry) . Of course this requires lots of practice and repetition of all basic skills etc. Once achieved, it needs to be maintained. Then I think you then need to work on some limited close quarter combatives  and FOF skills.

In my experience, even the most practiced and experienced shooters when put into close quarter Force on Force, (reaction to contact) type drills with sims / airsoft etc....tend to NOT see their pistol sights in the initial contact. The brain does not want to move your eyes away from the perceived threat to look at the pistol sights, instead staying firmly focused on the threat. So they are effectively point shooting, while moving, engaging a threat that is also moving! Some in depth thought should also be given to this reality.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:40:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I agree that SA...is without question important. If I don't get into the fight, I can not lose it! However, what if?  What if I screw up and lets be honest, if your in a civilian gun fight you probably screwed up.  

First I think you need unconscious competency with your chosen handgun (should have this with all weapons you intend to carry) . Of course this requires lots of practice and repetition of all basic skills etc. Once achieved, it needs to be maintained. Then I think you then need to work on some limited close quarter combatives  and FOF skills.

In my experience, even the most practiced and experienced shooters when put into close quarter Force on Force, (reaction to contact) type drills with sims / airsoft etc....tend to NOT see their pistol sights in the initial contact. The brain does not want to move your eyes away from the perceived threat to look at the pistol sights, instead staying firmly focused on the threat. So they are effectively point shooting, while moving, engaging a threat that is also moving! Some in depth thought should also be given to this reality.
View Quote
You're exactly right.  One time, we had contact from the front, and I had to shoot over the hood of our vehicle.  My first three rounds went right into the hood.  I was concentrating so much on the threat, I never even thought about my sights.  I eventually got on target thankfully.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:42:11 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In my experience, even the most practiced and experienced shooters when put into close quarter Force on Force, (reaction to contact) type drills with sims / airsoft etc....tend to NOT see their pistol sights in the initial contact. The brain does not want to move your eyes away from the perceived threat to look at the pistol sights, instead staying firmly focused on the threat. So they are effectively point shooting, while moving, engaging a threat that is also moving! Some in depth thought should also be given to this reality
View Quote
Have you read Tom Givens' Range Master News Letter Vol. 21 Issue 7 ?

It discusses the history and failed implementation of teaching PS techniques as pioneered by William Fairbairn in the 1920's-30's.  

I'd be interested in your take on it after reading it... I can send it to you if you like.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 12:56:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Cannot even remember it is on me most of the time unless I bang it on a door.

Carry OWB.

Side note, last weekend wife decided to hit me while I was driving.

She hit knuckles against cold steel.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 3:12:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Mr. Meagi said best defense is dont be there. Know whats going on around you I think is 99% of the solution. I do practice draws and shooting while moving.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 11:17:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Long long ago, a conservative columnist for the Orlando Sentinel, Charley Reese, wrote an article about it.

He said:

"The key to successful Gunfighting is to decide ahead of time that if it comes down to it, you or the other guy, you want to live, and you are going to shoot.

Then you shoot him while he's making up his mind."

How he arrived at that advice I have no idea, but I thought it summed it up pretty good, and I've carried it with me ever since.

I've decided.

One gun, carried the same way, longer than I care to remember, situational awareness.

Adrenaline is another can of worms, but between a lifetime of hunting, military, and 25 years in the fire service, I've had so many exciting things happen that I have a hard time getting up a decent gut clench anymore.

I know it will be different in an armed confrontation, but I've had a little insight into that to, and I like to imagine I will remain calm and think my way through it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 11:25:28 PM EDT
[#13]
I carry a gun to help me escape the threat. I'm not trying to win a gun fight or take down bank robbers.
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 1:18:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 7:46:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Situational awareness

Mindset

However ............... You can do everything right and still lose the fight.
View Quote
Hence the saying... "I'd rather be lucky than good"  
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 10:12:40 AM EDT
[#16]
a concealed permit holder has zero chance of winning a gun fight,  unless he has a gun with him.  I would imagine the percentage of CCW permit holders that are packing at any given time is very, very small.
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 10:16:03 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
a concealed permit holder has zero chance of winning a gun fight,  unless he has a gun with him.  I would imagine the percentage of CCW permit holders that are packing at any given time is very, very small.
View Quote
Excellent point... and accurate.
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 12:36:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted: I would imagine the percentage of CCW permit holders that are packing at any given time is very, very small.
View Quote
I do my part carrying but don't go around being billy badass.

Ah is very nice and helpful in public.

This thread got me to thinking.

Have always made my best shots in unexpected conditions be it handgun, rifle or shotgun.

Don't count me out.   I has the inner confidence
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 2:37:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 9/3/2017 10:20:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 8:58:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Mindset,  without it everything else goes to shit.
Link Posted: 9/6/2017 12:14:14 AM EDT
[#22]


CCW HOLDERS often win. It happens all the time  the plain clothes civi has both the element of surprise & gets to choose the moment of attack.

by definition the ones with violent intent must reveal themselves first.

besdes the crooks carry .40 S&W & Yeager says that's a junk/gimmick round
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 6:51:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Have you read Tom Givens' Range Master News Letter Vol. 21 Issue 7 ?

It discusses the history and failed implementation of teaching PS techniques as pioneered by William Fairbairn in the 1920's-30's.  

I'd be interested in your take on it after reading it... I can send it to you if you like.
View Quote
Yes thanks,  I would like to see that, can you MP me the article?
Link Posted: 9/16/2017 1:07:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yes thanks,  I would like to see that, can you MP me the article?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Have you read Tom Givens' Range Master News Letter Vol. 21 Issue 7 ?

It discusses the history and failed implementation of teaching PS techniques as pioneered by William Fairbairn in the 1920's-30's.  

I'd be interested in your take on it after reading it... I can send it to you if you like.
Yes thanks,  I would like to see that, can you MP me the article?
Link to the article
Link Posted: 9/21/2017 3:40:10 PM EDT
[#25]
#1 mindset. I think your SA is part of your mindset. Next would be your ability to get  accurate shots on what ever part of the body your assailant presents to you.  Head shots , COM ,  even his foot if that's all that is present shoot it. Let's not forget tactics. Your ability to use hard cover and mentally out maneuver your attacker or attackers seems to often make a difference.

As for point shooting. Many years ago I was at the range . The shooter next to me was a Detective ( Clearwater )  he was drawing and shooting COM as soon as the revolver cleared the leather . With out ever missing. His draw and 1st shot had to be 1/4 sec.  He had the target about 7 ft away at first then moved it out to about  6-7 yards .  He was a natural most people aren't. The amount of training to get to and maintain that level of point shooting is well beyond most people also. For me I want to see that front sight  for anything farther then bad breath distances.
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