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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:27:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 9:41:27 PM EDT by new-arguy]
I am not as good at this as Neil, but I'll post the ones I have. Will let him add his when he can.



Here is Sam going prone to start the first course.


Sam entering the house.


Sam taking out the bad guys hiding out back via the back window.


Yours truly waiting to start my run.


Me prone taking out the long range guys.


Me advancing on the house.


Me entering the house.


Me in the house.


Derek taking out the far targets.


Derek entering the house.




Matt goes prone.


Matt living up to being a target hoser.


Alan starting his run. Is that mag seated all the way??


Alan entering the house.


Neil and company relaxing at the Camp De Sam.


Burney starting his run.


Burney entering the house. He apparently wants to claim Matt's title. (Somebody toss Burney another mag!)


Neil starts his run.


Neil approaching the house.


Neil takes a few out through the window.


Neil in the house.


Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:59:32 AM EDT
Here is Sam running to the house to start the second course.


Sam grabbing his unloaded rifle and loading it.


Sam being sneaky and shooting under the back wall.


Derek running to the house.


Derek engaging targets out back after clearing the house.


Ryan engaging targets from outside the house.


Ryan inside.



Thats all I have. I'll let Neil post his when he gets a chance.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:33:51 AM EDT
Did you see the belly on that guy in the second picture? It's as big as Alan's



Great pictures, thanks Hawkeye

Dirk
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 1:50:21 PM EDT
Hawkeye ol' boy!

Thanks for sharing.

-White Horse
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:10:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By White_horse:
Hawkeye ol' boy!

Thanks for sharing.

-White Horse



Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:16:10 PM EDT
Looks like it was a good one! I'll be trying hard as hell to make it to the next one. I just couldn't make a 3+ hour drive to be there this time.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:17:06 PM EDT
What kind of pistol is Neil packing there? From the backstrap angle I think its Glock or HK.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:18:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of pistol is Neil packing there? From the backstrap angle I think its Glock or HK.



H&K USP 45, same as me.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:52:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 4:25:16 PM EDT by KGBeast]
The belly is purely decorative. It adds nothing to the function of the machine.

Anyway, I had a great time at the shoot and many thanks to Hawkeye for twisting my arm enough to make me go. I look forward to going to another one as soon as possible.

Derek
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:54:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of pistol is Neil packing there? From the backstrap angle I think its Glock or HK.



H&K USP 45, same as me.



Figured. I am buying one tonight. Variant 1. Gotta get rid of my G21 now.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:09:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of pistol is Neil packing there? From the backstrap angle I think its Glock or HK.



H&K USP 45, same as me.



Figured. I am buying one tonight. Variant 1. Gotta get rid of my G21 now.



Good man. Might I make a suggestion?? Get yourself a 12 lb Wolf hammer spring. Its a simple drop in, and does a nice little job on the trigger pull. They are only a few $$.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 11:53:17 PM EDT
In the sixth picture, Hawkeye(i presume) running towards the house with your muzzle pointing towards the ground. That's a great way to get shot dead on your approach! Sure it's only training, but when the shtf, you will revert back to your training and consequently perform in the same manner.
FDCC shoots are for honing skills that will help you survive a life and death experience.
Practice does NOT make perfect...............
Perfect practice makes perfect!
Just trying to help!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 12:02:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of pistol is Neil packing there? From the backstrap angle I think its Glock or HK.



H&K USP 45, same as me.



Figured. I am buying one tonight. Variant 1. Gotta get rid of my G21 now.



Good man. Might I make a suggestion?? Get yourself a 12 lb Wolf hammer spring. Its a simple drop in, and does a nice little job on the trigger pull. They are only a few $$.



I have been dinking around with it for about 4 hours now. i like to use it DA/SA. I dont want to fumble with a safety. Thanks for the advice about the spring. I will either do that or go the whole way and get one of those grey guns triggers they love over at HKPro. I got the UTL also. nice piece, seems as bright as my M900A. I only have two mags though, time to go shopping.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:50:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
In the sixth picture, Hawkeye(i presume) running towards the house with your muzzle pointing towards the ground. That's a great way to get shot dead on your approach! Sure it's only training, but when the shtf, you will revert back to your training and consequently perform in the same manner.
FDCC shoots are for honing skills that will help you survive a life and death experience.
Practice does NOT make perfect...............
Perfect practice makes perfect!
Just trying to help!



Highstrung, I dont know if you have ever been to one of our shoots or not. But I can tell you two things. One is FDCC is *NOT* training. It is purely for fun and we do not correct eachother or hand out penalties for bad tactics. If you want training, go to a class or some other form of instructional course.

Having said that, yes, some folks, not all, but some, do try to take advantage of the courses to increase and maintain their proficiency. Hawkeye is certainly one of those people. I would have to strongly disagree with you. He is advancing at the low ready and there is not a thing in the world wrong with doing that. In fact, some instructors would encourage you to go back to the low ready once you have engaged all visible targets. It *greatly* clears your field of view when scanning and searching for new targets, which is in fact what Hawkeye was doing in that photo. I think maybe if you were at this shoot and participated in this course, you might have known that.

Not a slam or anything but after all;
Practice does NOT make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect!
Just trying to help!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:45:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
In the sixth picture, Hawkeye(i presume) running towards the house with your muzzle pointing towards the ground. That's a great way to get shot dead on your approach! Sure it's only training, but when the shtf, you will revert back to your training and consequently perform in the same manner.
FDCC shoots are for honing skills that will help you survive a life and death experience.
Practice does NOT make perfect...............
Perfect practice makes perfect!
Just trying to help!



I had just neutralized a hostile in the window. I reverted back to a low ready to scan for any new threats that might prevent themselves. I wasnt really running there, more of a fast, steady shuffle to maintain balance. I do try to take every opportunity behind the trigger to work on my skills. But I try to enjoy it as well . Thats just me though and not to be inclusive of everyone else that participates. I can see where that pic can be a bit deceiving though.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:01:47 PM EDT
Geez man, why so defensive? Are you saying that when at an FDCC shoot you are not training? Well then what does the defensive part mean. I'm not trying to criticize, i'm just saying that it is better to have your weapon up and ready when approaching. Ofcourse you know there are no threats while you are approaching. Nobody can debate with me that it is better to move with your weapon up and ready! Yes i have attended defensive carbine club shoots, big deal, and yes they are fun.
However don't mistake the fun aspect with the fact that people might develope bad habits which go unnoticed or uncorrected. If you guys have these events and you notice people doing things that would place them at a tactical disadvantage, and you don't correct them, then you are doing a great disservice to these people! FDCC shoots ARE training, because there are no other places for civilians to practice defensive tactics (besides a private class). Having your weapon in an up and ready position does not hamper your field of view!
I'm not saying to close one eye and only look through your sights, but, if you proceed towards any structure with your weapon down, you will be at an obvious disadvantage! You have a moral responsibility to give pointers to people at these shoots! If you feel differently, then you should advise people who attend FDCC events that poor technique and bad habits will go uncorrected. That is providing a severe disservice, and i hope nobody ever has to use these poorly conditioned skills in the event of a true life SHTF scenario.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:23:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
Geez man, why so defensive? Are you saying that when at an FDCC shoot you are not training? Well then what does the defensive part mean. I'm not trying to criticize, i'm just saying that it is better to have your weapon up and ready when approaching. Ofcourse you know there are no threats while you are approaching. Nobody can debate with me that it is better to move with your weapon up and ready! Yes i have attended defensive carbine club shoots, big deal, and yes they are fun.
However don't mistake the fun aspect with the fact that people might develope bad habits which go unnoticed or uncorrected. If you guys have these events and you notice people doing things that would place them at a tactical disadvantage, and you don't correct them, then you are doing a great disservice to these people! FDCC shoots ARE training, because there are no other places for civilians to practice defensive tactics (besides a private class). Having your weapon in an up and ready position does not hamper your field of view!
I'm not saying to close one eye and only look through your sights, but, if you proceed towards any structure with your weapon down, you will be at an obvious disadvantage! You have a moral responsibility to give pointers to people at these shoots! If you feel differently, then you should advise people who attend FDCC events that poor technique and bad habits will go uncorrected. That is providing a severe disservice, and i hope nobody ever has to use these poorly conditioned skills in the event of a true life SHTF scenario.



OK, New-arguy wasnt being defensive, just informative. I was trying to be lighthearted as well.
With your rifle up and ready, it most certainly DOES hamper your field of view. Maybe not a lot, but definitely more than with it at low ready. I cant shoot what I cant SEE. You cannot also move as fast or as stable as you can at low ready. Going from low ready to firing is hardly any different time wise than with the rifle already up. I have plenty of formal training. EVERY thing I have been in on, advises a low ready when advancing, ESPECIALLY after you have taken out all the visible targets, EXCEPT, if you are already in tight enclosed spaces. Even then, you would not advance on corners with your rifle up. Thats a good way to get disarmed and killed.
FDCC makes it well know that we are not formal training and will not critique anyone in such a fashion. Everyone is free to get as much out of it as they want. Some of us do offer helpful hints from time to time, but it is not forced on anyone. I take it pretty seriously. Others dont. Doesnt bother me in the least that others dont. As for providing as dis-service, I dont see how that is possible, as there is no service being performed to begin with.


Nobody can debate with me that it is better to move with your weapon up and ready!


And you are the definitive authority on the subject??? And your credentials are??? I know of several trainers who are very qualified to train, that have also been under fire, that would argue differently with you all day long.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:31:35 PM EDT
hmm...
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 5:09:46 PM EDT
Okay! I sincerely hope you never have a SHTF scenario because it will be your funeral.
We can debate this forever, but it is not my intention to waste my time. As far as my credentials go, I hope you never go through all the blood and gore which I have gone through. Yeah I guess you guys are right, you take part in FDCC shoots for fun. Trust me, you should hope you never have to kill someone.
And pray you never have shots fired in your direction. Have fun at your little shoots and hopefully if the SHTF you will live to post about it. Good luck and happy playing boys!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 5:12:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 5:20:12 PM EDT by SGB]
Nice Pics !!

Looks like ya'll are having a great time. I need to try harder to attend these shoots.

But Only if you don't take pictures of this fat old man running
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 5:36:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 9:43:30 AM EDT by Dirk_Pitt]

Originally Posted By: HighStrung1

Okay! I sincerely hope you never have a SHTF scenario because it will be your funeral.
We can debate this forever, but it is not my intention to waste my time. As far as my credentials go, I hope you never go through all the blood and gore which I have gone through. Yeah I guess you guys are right, you take part in FDCC shoots for fun. Trust me, you should hope you never have to kill someone.
And pray you never have shots fired in your direction. Have fun at your little shoots and hopefully if the SHTF you will live to post about it. Good luck and happy playing boys!



Peterhead...

Why don't you come to one of our shoots and show us how it's done?

Dirk
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:11:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
Okay! I sincerely hope you never have a SHTF scenario because it will be your funeral.



Only a fool would WISH for a SHTF scenario. Don't we all hope it never happens, but prepare in our own way?



We can debate this forever, but it is not my intention to waste my time. As far as my credentials go, I hope you never go through all the blood and gore which I have gone through. Yeah I guess you guys are right, you take part in FDCC shoots for fun. Trust me, you should hope you never have to kill someone.



Again, I pray that I never do have to kill someone. If I do, my wish is to be quick save myself/my family from harm. After all, isn't that what defense is all about? We are not the Florida-Hope-The-SHTF-So-We-Can-All-Go-Kill-People-Offensive-Club.



And pray you never have shots fired in your direction.



Way ahead of you on this one.


Have fun at your little shoots and hopefully if the SHTF you will live to post about it.


Thanks! We will have fun and continue to do so and learn, or NOT learn, as we wish. My wish for you is that you continue to survive whatever terrible events come your way.


Good luck and happy playing boys!


Sorry, I can't speak for the others here, but I don't believe in luck. I have found that luck seems to follow hard work. Thanks for the wish of happy playing. Right back at you in whatever makes you happy.

-White Horse
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:17:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
Okay! I sincerely hope you never have a SHTF scenario because it will be your funeral.
We can debate this forever, but it is not my intention to waste my time. As far as my credentials go, I hope you never go through all the blood and gore which I have gone through. Yeah I guess you guys are right, you take part in FDCC shoots for fun. Trust me, you should hope you never have to kill someone.
And pray you never have shots fired in your direction. Have fun at your little shoots and hopefully if the SHTF you will live to post about it. Good luck and happy playing boys!



I have had shots fired in my direction. Have you???
I do hope I never have to kill someone. But I do know first hand what its like to hold a loaded firearm, and be squeezing the trigger while its pointed at another human being.
Thanks, I do have fun, and I intend to continue having fun. I am not really sure what your problem is, or where you come off all of a sudden with the attitude.

I will ask again, please list your credentials wich make you such an expert in the use of leathal force and of firearms & weapons tactics. No one here is claiming to be an expert other than you.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:20:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
Nice Pics !!

Looks like ya'll are having a great time. I need to try harder to attend these shoots.

But Only if you don't take pictures of this fat old man running



Anytime SGB. Just show up. As for the pics, dont worry, you'll blend right in .
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:27:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
Okay! I sincerely hope you never have a SHTF scenario because it will be your funeral.
We can debate this forever, but it is not my intention to waste my time. As far as my credentials go, I hope you never go through all the blood and gore which I have gone through. Yeah I guess you guys are right, you take part in FDCC shoots for fun. Trust me, you should hope you never have to kill someone.
And pray you never have shots fired in your direction. Have fun at your little shoots and hopefully if the SHTF you will live to post about it. Good luck and happy playing boys!


Yikes!
Well I might as well jump in here too. There needs to be some diplomacy. I believe you might have something to offer Highstrung, but I might suggest that you ask someone first if they'd like your input & critique especially if you are going to offer it in a public forum. Some folks are open to constructive critisizm more so than others. Some folks are training and honing their skills for a SHTF scenerio, others come to the shoots to b/s, check out cool toys and blast targets indescriminately. Some folks have had training that may differ from others. Good, bad, why etc. I for one like to hear input from folks that have had formal training, I take from it what sounds logical and 86 the rest. For example, I don't practice rolling around on the ground while shooting or shooting upside down while laying on my back. Those skills don't seem as important as seeking hard cover. Anyway, lets not start a pissing match, if you have something personal to offer, I suggest that you ask those persons if they would like your input, we're guys here, remember, as the males, our egos don't like to be poked. Come to one of the shoots, hone your own skills, folks will watch, perhaps learn & maybe ask questions. Just keep in mind, we're not the IDPA, we're not IPSC, we're a bunch of gun folks that like to shoot whether it's for SHTF or not.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:37:02 PM EDT

There needs to be some diplomacy.




Dirk
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:39:02 PM EDT
Sure , I would love to partake in another FDCC shoot. You guys seem to have your shit together compared to other FDCC shoots i've attended. I'm new to this sight and I don't wanna stir up the animosity. I very much enjoy shooting and I do miss the bullets flying and the thrill of the battle, but civilian life has good points too! Let me know when your next shoot is and i'll try to make it. A road trip out of south Florida sounds real good.
You guys stay safe, i'm sorry i came off like a di-khead. Let me know when and where.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:02:07 PM EDT
Next shoot is June 29th, 9:30 am at the Lake City Range in the Osceola National Forest.

I must reiterate what I mentioned earlier and Hawkeye reaffirmed. FDCC is not training for anything. Period. It is for fun. We have absolutley no responsibility to teach, correct, or point anything out. Most of the folks who come to FDCC dont know each other. At least not initially.

Having said that, it is 100% up to you if you want to seize the opportunity to strengthen your defensive tactics. If you do, all the better. I know I sure as heck try. I usually take a back seat to the winners in the overall shoots because I take my time to slice the pie, engage targets with sufficient shots, etc. This kills my time, but I would rather get in good practice. If you take the time to do so, it can be very good training. If not, oh well.

Thats the way FDCC is. None of us have anything to proove. Over the years we've seen a couple people with inflated egos, an agenda, and something to proove show up. They would usually bark out orders on how to do things and what everyone was doing wrong. In my experience, every single person who came like that left disapointed and with their tail between their legs when they shot non hostile target, fumbled a reload, lost to a novice in the head to head etc.

Finally, we can take this to the tactics and training forum if you like, but I am still strongly in opposition to approaching an unknown structure at the ready. Low ready clears your field of view considerably. When something ahead is totally unknown to you I think it is perfectly acceptable and even wise to be scanning at the low ready.

Anyhow, hope to see you out there with us some time.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:39:52 PM EDT
Here's the rest of the pics before I fall asleep at the computer.



























Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:56:33 AM EDT
Damn, look at the ACOGs...

Dirk

Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:58:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
Sure , I would love to partake in another FDCC shoot. You guys seem to have your shit together compared to other FDCC shoots i've attended. I'm new to this sight and I don't wanna stir up the animosity. I very much enjoy shooting and I do miss the bullets flying and the thrill of the battle, but civilian life has good points too! Let me know when your next shoot is and i'll try to make it. A road trip out of south Florida sounds real good.
You guys stay safe, i'm sorry i came off like a di-khead. Let me know when and where.



I for one really enjoy seeing/hearing others experiences. As CS said, I take what I think to be sound stuff and 86 the rest. I for one dont want to pass up the chance to get new info and ideas from anyone, so lets move forward from here. Like I said, I try to make every second behind the trigger count as if it were real for me. Would love for you to come out sometime. Who knows, we might have a lot to offer each other.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 4:56:04 PM EDT
Sound's to me like somebody could use a great big hug.On a serious note,i,ve had some formal fire arm's training and in both case's i was instructed to go to low ready after fireing.I have also had to stay alive in a nasty little war.IF i ever thought that shtf i would'nt be here.Not that some thing's aint worth fighting for,i just would'mt have it in me to let my family have to live through what had to.Soto me it's all fun(shooting)or else i aint going to be there."i know better".for what it's worth.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:16:19 PM EDT
PROVO, get yourself and that new ACOG to the next shoot and have some fun with the rest of us!!!
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