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Posted: 3/29/2006 7:01:36 PM EDT
I'll soon be in the market for a good HK91 style weapon and since my choices seem fairly limited, I was wondering what would be the best course of action. I see a lot of SAR's and HK's on GB, but they're all ungodly expensive. When I buy one, money won't be (much of) an issue. I know you normally get what you pay for. However, would it just be better to try to buy a parts kit from I/O? I wanted an FMP kit to build but I got screwed on that and I've read a lot about the lack of customer service at Florida Gun Works which is the only place that seems to still have them.

I don't want a PTR-91. Its cool, I won't knock them, but its not really an HK 91 clone. I've been looking at a SW3, but I've also read about the man behind SW and it makes me wonder about buying one of his products.

Basically, I can't buy one here in my town. The only thing close is a Hesse one in a way overpriced gun shop. If there are any they are most likely real HK 91's costing in the 3G range which I don't really want to spend. A Cetme isn't the same and I already have one anyway.

I'm not looking for a safe queen, either. This will be most likely be a SHTF rifle as well as the one I'll shoot a lot. I won't spare any expense for an excellent gun, I just won't spend way more than I should.

Which brings me here, making a longwinded post. I am dead set on a HK91 style weapon. I know every single option is very expensive. What I'm looking for is the best value for my money.

For the tl;dr crowd, here's the gist:
Its pretty much real HK vs Greek Sar vs SW3 vs having one built at IGF. (No Cetme/PTRs)
I want a SHTF/regular shooter rifle.
Money is an issue to an extent, but I know what I'm getting into. I know what happens when the letters "HK" are even remotely attached to something.
My life may very well depend on this rifle one day, so I want something I can really depend on.
Arfcommers are all cool guys (and gals). I'd buy you all a box of bullets if I could.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:19:48 PM EDT
Was a NIB 91 at the show this past weekend. Guy wanted 3k for it. Had a bipod forend on it and the origional box.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:31:12 PM EDT
So let me get this straight... not being a wise ass at all....

You had rather have an SW3 over a PTR because of barrel contour

Is this what you are saying ?

If money really isn't an expense, then you should have IGF build you a kit (plent of US parts involved) or just buy a real HK.

I see no problem here.

And if TEOTWAWKI were to happen... you'd probably have better groups on the zombies with the PTR.... but then again, you say it isn't really an HK91 clone

Sturm has HK91's for well under 3 grand every week.... FWIW

Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:36:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 7:38:35 PM EDT by SnprPSG1]
If you are looking for a HK91 clone, why wouldn't you want a PTR91? The PTR91 is a HK91 clone and the best clone made out on the market right now, even made on HK's equipment.

The PTR91 is an HK91 clone.

The PTR91 cost less than a SW3 or the SAR8.

The only other choice is to find an SAR8, it is priced between the PTR91 and a real HK.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:21:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 8:49:24 PM EDT by Coiffio]

Originally Posted By bones21:
So let me get this straight... not being a wise ass at all....

You had rather have an SW3 over a PTR because of barrel contour his



Ok, maybe what I was asking was a comparison on regular HK91 style weapons. The PTR has a different barrel contour and different sights. I'm not saying I won't buy one, I'm just not including it in this discussion because those two features (in my mind) make it a fair amount different from a regular HK91 style weapon. I never said I'd take a SW3 over a PTR 91. I know about Toad Bailey and what he's done.

I essentially want a HK spec gun. I can buy a real HK for the price I've seen most Sar-8's. The SW3 is substantially cheaper price wise, but I have no real idea of the worksmanship/inherent depravity of such a weapon. Only InterOrdnance seems to have kits left and I'm not sure what kind of condition they would be in. Being of Portuguese descent, I would like a FMP kit/gun but they seem to be all gone.

I know the PTR is a good gun, that's not what this is about. This is about which of the above would be best suited to shoot at the range on weekends and pop zombie heads if the need ever arrived. I'll probably buy a PTR one day anyway, but I already know I like the HK sights.

Ok, to make this more linear, I'm looking to answer the following questions: What's the material/build differences between the Sar-8 and the real HK91 (And maybe the SW3)? Would buying a whole, name brand rifle (Sar-8 or HK) be of a better quality than buying a $300 InterOrdnance kit and a JLD receiver and sending it to some place like IGF and having it built?

ETA: Anyone have any experiences with Florida Gun Works?
ETA again: In a perfect world, I'd just go and buy an HK G3 and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:51:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 8:52:26 PM EDT by migradog]
I own a Greek SAR-8
I own a PTR-91
Both are HK Clones built on a steel reciever with HK parts. (The PTR does have some US Parts)
Try both, get the one you like best. The PTR will be the better deal.

The SW-3 is problimatic at best with spotty quality.
Both the SAR and PTR have better recievers.

Florida Gun Works sucks.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:15:33 AM EDT
My PTR came with the exact same sights as an HK91, the only difference was my PTR did have a windage "knob" instead of a screw-I replaced the knob with the correct screw. I know that some of the PTRs have a different sight drum with the 100 yd hole instead of a V notch, but it would only take a minute to change the drum out with the original V notch. My PTR stays set at 200 yds, cause I like the hole instead of the V notch anyway. Hope this helps - ARKAR
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:55:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 7:57:12 AM EDT by eric10mm]
It sounds as though your personal preferences are going to have you either building a gun from parts or buying a real HK. Either one is a great way to go but both will cost way more than buying a PTR, which comes with a warranty and is made from a lot of the same parts you'll have to use to build a 922r compliant rifle.

Build costs are going to be roughly as follows, assuming you want the skinny G3 barrel profile:
Parts kit ~$250-300 (of which you'll be ditching the furniture)
US receiver ~$200
US furniture set ~$80 from JLD which is the best set available, and that ain't saying much
US-made 922r compliance parts ~$150-200 (assuming you'll use JLD full furn. set, you need US-made cocking handle, trigger, hammer & sear to equal 7 US-made parts)
Labor to build, convert trigger pack & finish ~$450+

Total = ~$1200-1300 to build one with skinny profile G3 barrel from parts kit.

Buying a real HK91 is going to cost anywhere from ~$1800 for a fairly rough example up to ???? for a really nice one.

And you're right, the PTR isn't really a clone. It's better than a clone. It's more like a tribute. Sort of like a bar's house band attempting to cover a Jimi Hendrix song versus Eric Clapton singing his version/tribute to the original song.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:00:09 PM EDT
Coiffio ,

I think I understand what your saying .
You don't want the PTR-91s heavy barrel.

After shooting and carrying both,there is a noticable weight difference.

If you want a new rifle and don't want to pay $3 grand for an original HK,
CAREFULLY choose and attain your parts and get Jason at IGF to
build it for you .

I've known a few people that went this route and were happy with the result.

I suggest the following parts list:

US Parts
1.IGF Flash hider
2.JLD Receiver
3.JLD Trunnion
4.Pistol grip (I think IGF has them,or JLD)
5.JLD Cocking handle
(It's broader and more comfortable than true HK but doesn't stick out
enough to be noticed .)
6.JLD Sear
7.JLD Trigger
8.JLD Trigger Box

You only need 7 US parts ,but I recommend 8 incase you decide to change something.

Look for a German or Portuguese(FMP) barrel and hammer.
The hammer takes a lot of abuse ,so I prefer original.

POF (Pakistani) Forearms stocks and bipods are plenty good enough,but
I prefer the harder steel for the barrel .

The rest of the parts I haven't heard of any problems with POF parts,
just some barrels.


If Jason built it ,he's tested it before it comes home .
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:08:42 PM EDT
Or JLD could just run a small lot of G3 profile barrels


Aren't they supposed to be doing some kind of MSG-90 clone in the distant future... 24" barrels and all
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 11:36:11 PM EDT
Every JLD PTR I have seen and shot has had HK91 sights on them. Did JLD change this?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:51:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bones21:
Or JLD could just run a small lot of G3 profile barrels



DING DING DING DING!! Give that man a prize!

IMO, JLD is missing at least some of the market by not offering an "original" skinny barrel profile option. And IMO anyone who prefers the HK-style V-notch 100yd sight setting over the improved (IMO) JLD peep 100yd sight, is, IMO, nuts. But $20 for an original sight drum, a pair of needle-nose pliers and the rear sight can be swapped out in minutes.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:30:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eric10mm:

Build costs are going to be roughly as follows, assuming you want the skinny G3 barrel profile:
Parts kit ~$250-300 (of which you'll be ditching the furniture)
US receiver ~$200
US furniture set ~$80 from JLD which is the best set available, and that ain't saying much
US-made 922r compliance parts ~$150-200 (assuming you'll use JLD full furn. set, you need US-made cocking handle, trigger, hammer & sear to equal 7 US-made parts)
Labor to build, convert trigger pack & finish ~$450+

Total = ~$1200-1300 to build one with skinny profile G3 barrel from parts kit.

Buying a real HK91 is going to cost anywhere from ~$1800 for a fairly rough example up to ???? for a really nice one.




Pardon me if this is considered hijacking this thread, but how hard is it to build an HK 91 clone yourself? Is it along the same difficulty as building an AK or FAL? Because the ability to knock 450 off that price makes buying an origonal HK a LOT less appealing, at least in my mind.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:50:39 AM EDT
My advice is to go w/ a ptr or be patient and find a SAR 3, 3/8 or 8. After some looking I lucked into a LNIB SAR 3/8 for $900 out the door. They can be found.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:57:42 AM EDT
I have seen some really nice HK 91's for $1800. Less for not pristine models. I would think for $3000, it had better have a whole basket full of extra stuff... and maybe a Playboy subscription, too.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:28:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 12:29:44 PM EDT by eric10mm]

Originally Posted By anr6t:
Pardon me if this is considered hijacking this thread, but how hard is it to build an HK 91 clone yourself? Is it along the same difficulty as building an AK or FAL? Because the ability to knock 450 off that price makes buying an origonal HK a LOT less appealing, at least in my mind.


It is definitely NOT like assembling an AR15 and slightly more difficult than building an AK but basically the same process.

Welding is required and a shop press is needed. And the experience to know how things need to go together is priceless. Then you still need to put a finish on the gun. The critical specs when building an HK are far more, umm, well, critical than when assembling a bullet-hose like an AK where "loose" is how it was designed.

IMO, I wouldn't try to tackle a HK build unless you have extensive machine shop equipment and experience.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:48:59 PM EDT
The PTR barrel may be heavier but a better barrel. And mine had a real HK G3 rear drum sight.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:22:04 PM EDT
Ohio Rapid Fire could build a std barrel version for an acceptable price. As for the JLD rear sight, I findit a great improvement over the V notch, unless one is shooting man sized targets at 100 yards.

Bill
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 11:18:21 AM EDT
It sounds like with how important it is to you to get a rifle as close to a HK91 as possible, you should just save your money and wait till you find a good on a real HK91 that suits you.
A PTR91 is the best clone out there on the market, but yes does have a couple of differences. Still alot of people consider the heavy contour barrel they put on to be a plus as it certainly is an accurate barrel on average it seems. Furniture and sights can be changed out easily to your taste and you'll still have an excellent new HK91 clone for less money.

PTR91
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 11:20:07 AM EDT
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 12:03:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday



Congrats on the new rifle Twonami.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 12:05:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By twonami:
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday



Congrats on the new rifle Twonami.


thanks, it will be my first
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 12:26:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By twonami:
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday



Congrats on the new rifle Twonami.


thanks, it will be my first



I'd say you might want to buy a rear sight tool now before your rifle gets here, but it looks like their out for now. I read some guys using a modified pair of tweazers to turn the rear sight, but the sight tool is worth it I think. I bought some new in wrap steel mags from CDNN, but Tapco still has some of the best deals.

Sight tool

Tapco

CDNN
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 12:35:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By twonami:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By twonami:
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday



Congrats on the new rifle Twonami.


thanks, it will be my first



I'd say you might want to buy a rear sight tool now before your rifle gets here, but it looks like their out for now. I read some guys using a modified pair of tweazers to turn the rear sight, but the sight tool is worth it I think. I bought some new in wrap steel mags from CDNN, but Tapco still has some of the best deals.

Sight tool

Tapco

CDNN


cool, thanks for the heads up
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 1:00:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday



Way to go twonami

Chris
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 1:31:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By twonami:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By twonami:
I just put a $100 down on a PTR. I should have it in my mitts by next Friday



Congrats on the new rifle Twonami.


thanks, it will be my first



I'd say you might want to buy a rear sight tool now before your rifle gets here, but it looks like their out for now. I read some guys using a modified pair of tweazers to turn the rear sight, but the sight tool is worth it I think. I bought some new in wrap steel mags from CDNN, but Tapco still has some of the best deals.

Sight tool

Tapco

CDNN


cool, thanks for the heads up



Your welcome, that's what these forum are great for, helping out other brothers in arms.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 1:44:33 PM EDT
I'm sure I'll be asking several questions on these since I don't know jack squat about them other than they look cool and shoot .308.
Any links for required reading are surely appreciated.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:04:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:10:38 PM EDT by Achilles1]
This one's always good for their pictures and description of bolt and field stripping which is up in the right top corner of the page. They have their layout for the Cetme and not an HK91/G3, but there basically the same rifle except for some minor parts differences.

SurplusRifle: Cetme/HK91

Here's some basic history.

World Guns G3

And of course one of the other great spots to learn about the rifle,

HKpro

And what another level is with a G3,

Remtek

and a good place for parts. (when they have them)

POF

RTG

Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:21:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
The PTR barrel may be heavier but a better barrel.



BWAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA!

JR
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:24:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By whatnow:
Ohio Rapid Fire could build a std barrel version for an acceptable price.



If only he could make the rifle acceptable.


JR
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:32:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:32:45 PM EDT by MouseBoy]
Coiffio


You need a little more info on the subject before you buy.........seriously, the JLD is the best buy out there in 91 types, period......


(hope your not a )
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 10:31:06 PM EDT
Send an IM to SteyrAUG on the board here. He had a custom 91 built for me.... Just an idea....


Woody
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:42:42 AM EDT
I picked it up early



Link Posted: 4/3/2006 11:04:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 2:23:21 PM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By twonami:
I picked it up early
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/104_0499.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/104_0498.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/104_0500.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/105_0501.jpg



Yes sir, there she is. They are a damn nice looking rifle. Enjoy it. If you decide that you want to change out the furniture like alot of us, there are a few choices. Grease works real well on this rifle too. I use Tetra, but there are alot of good greases out there.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 10:09:28 AM EDT
There's no one out there that could reprofile the heavy PTR bbl to 91 specs?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:02:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
There's no one out there that could reprofile the heavy PTR bbl to 91 specs?



I too dislike the heavy barrel of the PTR series. I even tried the shorter 16 inch Kurtz model seeking a lighter gun. I am currently selling it since I decided it just doesn't have the feel of the lighter HK or CETMEs. The heavy barreled PTRs make an already too muzzle heavy gun feel
that much more clumsy. (I know in this day and age of hanging all kinds of tactical junk on
a gun this may seem like a moot point.) Nonetheless, I have researched the lighter barreled possibilty on a PTR-91 so it would feel and handle more like my HK-91.

One possiblity is to have fluting done on the barrel both under the handguard and in front.
It has been done on ARs from Bushmaster and Wilson Combat and looks pretty cool to boot.
Unfortuntely, this route is not cheaper than a different barrel as custom gunsmith fees escalate the cost of a project like this to the point where it would be as cost effective to shop out another
cheaper HK-91. However, it is an interesting possibilty.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:56:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 4:57:22 PM EDT by MouseBoy]

Originally Posted By brandyspaw:

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
There's no one out there that could reprofile the heavy PTR bbl to 91 specs?



I too dislike the heavy barrel of the PTR series. I even tried the shorter 16 inch Kurtz model seeking a lighter gun. I am currently selling it since I decided it just doesn't have the feel of the lighter HK or CETMEs. The heavy barreled PTRs make an already too muzzle heavy gun feel
that much more clumsy. (I know in this day and age of hanging all kinds of tactical junk on
a gun this may seem like a moot point.) Nonetheless, I have researched the lighter barreled possibilty on a PTR-91 so it would feel and handle more like my HK-91.

One possiblity is to have fluting done on the barrel both under the handguard and in front.
It has been done on ARs from Bushmaster and Wilson Combat and looks pretty cool to boot.
Unfortuntely, this route is not cheaper than a different barrel as custom gunsmith fees escalate the cost of a project like this to the point where it would be as cost effective to shop out another
cheaper HK-91. However, it is an interesting possibilty.



I agree and have talked to Victor at JLD and have suggested the weak point of a PTR 91 is the barrel is too heavy. Why not manufacture a true HK barrel profile, sorry, just had to........
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 12:18:38 PM EDT


Well MouseBoy, I hope I'm wrong but I doubt that JLD will build a lighter weight barrel for the
PTR since the market demand would be so low. Most people who buy the PTR-91 have never had an HK-91 and don't appreciate the difference in handling that the lighter weight barrel can make.

As a result, I doubt that JLD would gear up with a different barrel contour since most
buyers likely wouldn't care.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:16:26 PM EDT
Wow, I didn't think there'd be much to this thread, but it really took a life of its own.

twonami, that's a fine gun.

Some of you guys seem to think I've got it in for the PTR. I really don't. The PTR is a new made gun, and most likely still in production. I was interested in buying a regular profile gun because no one makes/imports them anymore. There are plenty of heavy barrels I can buy, too, but no regular ones. I haven't ever heard about the quality of places like InterOrdnance which is one of the last places to sell the kits.

That being said, I will buy a PTR, but after I get a regular 91. Thanks for all the info and links.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:24:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brandyspaw:

Well MouseBoy, I hope I'm wrong but I doubt that JLD will build a lighter weight barrel for the
PTR since the market demand would be so low. Most people who buy the PTR-91 have never had an HK-91 and don't appreciate the difference in handling that the lighter weight barrel can make.

As a result, I doubt that JLD would gear up with a different barrel contour since most
buyers likely wouldn't care.



I don't think JLD would be concerned so much to make a barrel contoured to copy the original HK91 version either as most people wouldn't care, but they could make some of the models into more of a battle rifle barrel by chromelining it compared to just using the stainless steel bull barrels alone. There's no reason I can see the bull barrel being a worthwhile benefit on the K models with a 16 inch barrel compared to a lighter contour chromelined chromemoly except for the recoil control that extra weight up front will give. The difference if any in accuracy wouldn't really matter as much at the effective range the 16inch offers and for an up close .308 BR people will most likely be burning through more rounds and would prefer the endurance a chromelined barrel would offer.
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