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Posted: 3/22/2006 5:48:21 PM EDT
Main question:

I am looking at trading a AWB compliant AR for a PTR-91A1. I was looking at the sights and noticed that the elevation (front sight post) is not adjustable and that the distance is only adjustable to 400 meters. Why is this so? I know .308 (7.62 NATO) is effective past 400 meters.


Here are the particulars of my situation. I'm trying to decide which way to trade.

I recently purchased a Rock River Tactical Entry and don't need two carbines. So, I figured I would trade off my second carbine which is the Bushmaster pictured here:



It has these features (keep in mind this is a ban rifle with muzzle brake and no bayo lug)

I'm not trading the Aimpoint or the foregrip.

Base Rifle Bushmaster XM15-E2S A3 16 in. Carbine
Front Sight GG&G Tactical Modular Flip Up Front
Rear Sight ARMS #40
Rail System ARMS SIR45-M
Pistol Grip Hogue AR15/M16 Rubber Grip
Foregrip Knights Armament
Stock Sling Adapter GG&G Single point fixed plate


HERE ARE MY TWO INTERESTS:

This Bushmaster 20" A3 w/detachable carry handle:



I'm interested in setting this up as an AR15A4 with KAC M5 RAS

Or this:



I'm interested in this since I do not currently have a .308 in my collection.


Both trade possibilities are brand new. I'm leaning toward the PTR-91 since it has a higher value on average. Does it sound like a good deal to you guys?

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:37:02 PM EDT

I was looking at the sights and noticed that the elevation (front sight post) is not adjustable...

Both windage and elevation adjustment are done on the rear sight.


and that the distance is only adjustable to 400 meters. Why is this so? I know .308 (7.62 NATO) is effective past 400 meters.

Most European military weapons subscribe to the theorey that most combat shooting happens at less than 300m. The Camp Perry crowd heavily influences US military designs, hence the target type sights found on US military weapons.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:42:04 PM EDT
If you get a real HK, you get the other 800 meters.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:22:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
If you get a real HK, you get the other 800 meters.



I just acquired a PTR-91 and am new to this kind of rifle.

Are these H&K sights that you mentioned available on the market?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:25:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 4:29:22 AM EDT by ARKAR]

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
If you get a real HK, you get the other 800 meters.



I just acquired a PTR-91 and am new to this kind of rifle.

Are these H&K sights that you mentioned available on the market?



I think he's refering to the HK may be more accurate at longer distances that the PTR, but I have no idea if that's true, it's possible. The original, standard HK rifles didn't come with the 1200 meter sights either. You can buy the extended range sights, here's one source:Gordon Miller. ARKAR
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:27:53 AM EDT
SgtSauer: HK makes 1,200m sight the you can use to replace the factory standard sight. This sight has no windage adjustment, only elevation.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:37:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 4:38:40 AM EDT by osprey21]
Actually there IS a 1200m sight with adjustment for windage.


Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:55:22 AM EDT
don't those run $400-500?


Originally Posted By osprey21:
Actually there IS a 1200m sight with adjustment for windage.


i1.tinypic.com/s2t8h5.jpg

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:24:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Landpimp:
don't those run $400-500?


GM lists them for $525, so yeah, about that.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:39:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By osprey21:

Originally Posted By Landpimp:
don't those run $400-500?


GM lists them for $525, so yeah, about that.



[cough!]

Maybe I'll work with my 400M sight for a while.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:44:24 AM EDT
LOL
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:00:20 AM EDT
for >$500 instead of a machinegun sight, I would rather have a decent used original German Hensoldt Wetzlar 4x24 scope which has some autoranging adjustments out to 600m or so if I am not mistaken, plus you could actually begin to see what you are shooting at in those longer distances...

I used to shoot NRA highpower too, but outside those nice perfectly flat known distance ranges with highly distinct high contrast perfect large black bullseyes on a white background, I have found hitting other things like IPSC targets at 600m with iron sights to be a challenge far beyond my abilities, mainly cause stuff is hard to see/distinguish at those ranges. I need a scope badly past 300m if the first shot has to count for anything.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:02:20 AM EDT
do you guys really shoot that far out? with iron sites even? lol I haven't shot past 300 yds lately since that's the extent of our range at the range I belong to, but of course we qualified with 500 yds in the mix in the Marines at man sized targets and that was about as far as I would care to try without a scope!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:36:55 AM EDT
In terms of accuracy, I think you might find that the JLD shoots better at distance than an HK does.

HK has hammer forged barrels, generally regarded as superior for weapons that have hard lives and shoot lots of rounds, AKA machine guns, not generally regarded as the most accurate type of barrels.

JLD has a cut rifled barrel, not as durable as a hammer forged barrel, but generally more accurate as long as the barrel maker does the right things.

The above statements are theory as I dont have a JLD and do have an HK.

In terms of sights, stick with the 400 and learn your holdovers.
That rear diopter sight on the HK style sights is a real nice sight once you get used to it.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 12:08:31 PM EDT
cmeyer001 is correct about the JLD barrels.

JLD produces barrels using a method in which the
barrels are cut from a blank in stead of hammer
forged.
Theoretically ,this is more accurate if all other factors are
equal.

JLD barrels are also heavy barrels ,with 10 chamber flutes
instead of the 12 HK used.
This was part of an attempt to reduce recoil without effecting
dependability.

I believe there is a diopter that goes to 600 yards.
I think it's the French style diopter.
I've seen them on gunbroker a few times,pretty cheap to.

Personnally,I don't think I could FIND a real target past 400
yards unless it was shooting at me !

If I could,I already new where they were ,and I'm using a scope instead.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 12:41:34 PM EDT
I know I'm an old guy with failing vision, but if you're going to be shooting beyond 400 meters I'd spring for a scope. I have a 6X IOR on my PTR which I really like. Optics are top notch. My only complaint is that I wish the scope was smaller. When you pull back on bolt handle and lock it back (so bolt holds open) scope gets in the way a little (at least when it has sun shade on)

However, I do find that PTR definitely accurate enough to warrant a scope. On a good day, shooting Aussie surplus 1.5 inch groups are definitely doable at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:06:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cobrasks:
cmeyer001 is correct about the JLD barrels.

Personnally,I don't think I could FIND a real target past 400
yards unless it was shooting at me !



I have to agree with you there. I sure as heck won't see anything past 400 meters without a muzzle flash pointing the way. I was curious more than anything.

I traded for the PTR-91A1 by the way. I also got 200 rds. of 1982 OLIN .308 US surplus added to the deal. I feel it was a good deal since the AR was a AWB compliant rifle.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 3:16:47 PM EDT
lol yeah I thought about it later, if I remember correctly, sighting in on those man-sized sillouettes at 500 yds, they appeared smaller than the front site post! LMAO
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:35:25 AM EDT
So what is a French 200 peep sight?


From Sarcos website:
The rear sight is the French 200 peep sight, knurled target knob for adjustable windage & elevation – brand new

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