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Posted: 3/12/2006 7:00:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 7:00:54 AM EDT by new-arguy]
I shot a Cetme Rifle today, Looks and feels identical to the HK91. Anybody know anything about them?

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:42:24 AM EDT
Had one, sweet shooter. Only reason I sold it was that I built 2 L1A1's (Inch pattern FAL's). The only problem is the chamber is fluted and it wrecks the .308 cases, making them damn near impossible to reload. Otherwise, it would be a great addition.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:00:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 7:21:49 AM EDT by new-arguy]
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:22:56 PM EDT
Ummmmmmmmmm...........................is this not the AR form? Quick ask for forgiveness and post this on the H&K form, and we will spare your life!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:23:35 PM EDT
CETME (Centro De Estudios Tecnicos De Materiales Especiales) was a Spanish Government military and tech research center established during WW2. It was set up to provide Spanish defense with an R&D capability when foreign sales dried up as Spain was isolated for being a Fascist country.

In 1945, unemployed Mauser engineer Ludwig Vorgrimler makes his way to Spain and gets to work for CETME. He brings a lot of knowledge of the StG 45, which obviously never made it off the drawing boards. The StG 45 is developed into the CETME Model A, chambered for a now-obscure Spanish 30 caliber cartridge.

Meanwhile, about 10 years later, Germany gets permission to rearm and is looking for a new service rifle in the now standard 7.62X51. Germany first acquires and issues a Belgian FAL, named Gewehr 1 (G1). Political issues between Belgium and Germany (who knew) lead Belgium to refuse to license G1 production to Germany. Germany goes looking for a replacement.

Somehow or another, Heckler & Koch finds out about the CETME Modelo A and Modelo C (7.62X51) and decides to license the design from the Spanish government. The HK 91 is submitted for the Bundeswehr service rifle trials, wins, and is adopted as the Gewehr 3 (G3).

So the CETME doesn't look like an HK, HKs look like CETMES....
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:28:45 PM EDT
Hit and miss on getting a good one.
If you get one from Century look out.
I would avoid them altogether. This would be a better choice I think:

www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=205
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:30:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John44:
Ummmmmmmmmm...........................is this not the AR form? Quick ask for forgiveness and post this on the H&K form, and we will spare your life!



Ya I know, But I know us Ar guys know everything....Well all but me
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:35:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
CETME (Centro De Estudios Tecnicos De Materiales Especiales) was a Spanish Government military and tech research center established during WW2. It was set up to provide Spanish defense with an R&D capability when foreign sales dried up as Spain was isolated for being a Fascist country.

In 1945, unemployed Mauser engineer Ludwig Vorgrimler makes his way to Spain and gets to work for CETME. He brings a lot of knowledge of the StG 45, which obviously never made it off the drawing boards. The StG 45 is developed into the CETME Model A, chambered for a now-obscure Spanish 30 caliber cartridge.

Meanwhile, about 10 years later, Germany gets permission to rearm and is looking for a new service rifle in the now standard 7.62X51. Germany first acquires and issues a Belgian FAL, named Gewehr 1 (G1). Political issues between Belgium and Germany (who knew) lead Belgium to refuse to license G1 production to Germany. Germany goes looking for a replacement.

Somehow or another, Heckler & Koch finds out about the CETME Modelo A and Modelo C (7.62X51) and decides to license the design from the Spanish government. The HK 91 is submitted for the Bundeswehr service rifle trials, wins, and is adopted as the Gewehr 3 (G3).

So the CETME doesn't look like an HK, HKs look like CETMES....



You Da Man!!!!, Thanks for the history lesson, sure was fun shooting it.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:05:21 PM EDT
If it was me I would get one of those JLD PTR91s. But then again you arnt me.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:18:35 AM EDT
I have one... It shoots all the surplus ammo I have put in it, its pretty accurate w/iron sights.

I got no complaints with my rifle, although I have read that some people have had problems with theirs. I have a friend that has one, he has no complaints either.

I like the wood furniture. I cleaned the wood really well when I got it and keep it wiped down with murphy's oil soap. Looks great sitting next to my AR's.

Only drawback I have found is that military surplus 7.62 is much dirtier than the 5.56 in my experience.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:21:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I'll move this to the appropriate forum in a second, but I must say this. The HK might in fact be a replica of the CETME, but thats about all the CETME has over the HK. In truth, I dont really like either of them, but the HK is the far better gun. CETME's are made from cheaper parts, MUCH higher percentage rate of failure, crappy sights, etc.

The Model T ford was the first car, but thinkning it is the best car because it was the first is as silly as thinkning the CETME is somehow better than the HK because it came first.


The CETMEs you see here in the US are made with Spanish surplus kits , usually by Century who has been shown time and again to have zero ability to discern between serviceable and non-serviceable parts and make reliable rifles.

IF you could get your hands on a properly built, Spanish made rifle, you would singing a different tune. Yes, the rear sight is a bit more primitive on the CETME. Easy fix, if you must.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:37:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 7:39:44 AM EDT by eric10mm]
IMO, HK's only really noteworthy improvements on the CETME Modelo C rifle were inverting the safety lever to a more traditional up=safe/down=fire arrangement and improving the sights.

I swear the first time I tried to dry fire a CETME I thought something was broken. I moved the lever downwards and proceeded to attempt to squeeze the trigger but I just couldn't squeeze hard enough. My hand was shaking from squeezing the trigger so hard. Then I looked at the safety lever and almost cried with laughter at my stupidity. DOH! BTW, If this issue really bothers one that much, one can swap in an entire G3/91 trigger/grip assembly and it'll work fine.

Pound for pound, my experience shows that a CETME shoots softer than a 91. I can't explain why, but after shooting at least a half dozen of each that is my conclusion.

The only CETME I have now is a Century gun and it needed a little TLC as would any gun with higher mileage. After a thorough tuneup and a few new parts she sings sweet Spanish .308 lullabies all day long and I wouldn't dream of getting rid of her. I might get some pretty wood furniture for her at some point though.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:02:39 AM EDT
The only problem I have with it is finding mags. I have had so-so luck finding sites on the net that sell decent ones, and alot of other sell HK91 mags under the guise of being compatable with CETME rifles. Most HK mags don't seat properly so that the first shot goes off fine, but the follow-ups jam.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:39:21 AM EDT
I've found the only HK91 mags that don't work with CETMEs are those crappy 30 rounders made out of steel so thin you could poke through them with your finger. Those cheapies are terrible, but the alloy 20 rounders work and feed great. I like my CETME, but I'm looking to upgrade to a PTR91.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:05:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I'll move this to the appropriate forum in a second, but I must say this. The HK might in fact be a replica of the CETME, but thats about all the CETME has over the HK. In truth, I dont really like either of them, but the HK is the far better gun. CETME's are made from cheaper parts, MUCH higher percentage rate of failure, crappy sights, etc.

The Model T ford was the first car, but thinkning it is the best car because it was the first is as silly as thinkning the CETME is somehow better than the HK because it came first.


The CETMEs you see here in the US are made with Spanish surplus kits , usually by Century who has been shown time and again to have zero ability to discern between serviceable and non-serviceable parts and make reliable rifles.

IF you could get your hands on a properly built, Spanish made rifle, you would singing a different tune. Yes, the rear sight is a bit more primitive on the CETME. Easy fix, if you must.



+100

you get amars cetme and a pre ban 91,, only difference will be the sights and the trigger pack(selector postions)

cetmes recoil "'softer" due to their buffer design. the Hk also has higer unlocking times due to diff LP(locking piece) angles

you want info on them,, goto cetmerifles.com,,gunboards.com or dr.zero.org!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:32:44 PM EDT
The first Cetme's built/imported by Century were from like new parts kits.These only had the cast receiver.I was lucky and got one of these.Internals,Barrel,furniture everything was like new.As like a HK91 it will eat anything.Later Century started using stamped and cast recievers.As they did this the quality of the parts kits they were building them on went steadily downhill.A newly manufactored Cetme is hit or miss because the quality of the parts kits has gone down.I'd try to get one older.Mine was one of the 1st out and I think it's 4 years old or so.

Mine,1st production with cast reciever,runs just fine and will use Cetme or HK mags.Some cast/stamped recievers won't use HK mags.It's a crap shoot.If you can find a decent running Cetme then it's a great deal.If not then it can be a jam-o-matic.

I would definately buy a 1st production run/cast reciever Cetme again but after that first run of rifles you're rolling the dice.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 8:54:56 AM EDT
There is also supposed to be the limited edition version that is in the $600 range supposedly built on exc condition parts kits. I have not seen one though.

I did mine the hard way and purchase an unissued kit and had IGF build it up. EXC rifle but have $900+ in it.

Bill
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 9:30:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 9:31:59 AM EDT by eric10mm]

Originally Posted By whatnow:
I did mine the hard way and purchase an unissued kit and had IGF build it up. EXC rifle but have $900+ in it.

Bill

BUT, you basically have a brand new (well as new as it can be) rifle that should provide many years of fun and service.

I'm in the same boat with a 91 build for which I am still gathering parts.
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