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Posted: 12/22/2005 7:37:29 AM EDT
I just bought my first Cetme. I was told not to shoot .308 and instead use 7.62x51. Now someone else told me that 7.62x51 is .308 WIN while .308 NATO is 7.62x54 (russian). What's the deal here? If I buy a can of linked .308 will this be NATO or WIN? This is what I get for impulse buying. hehe
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:46:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:50:12 AM EDT by Longboat]
308 Win and 7.62 you see on the surplus market are basically the same. I believe there is a slight difference in the loading but.. eh if you can tell the difference you are doing better than me.

Cruffler had a decent write up about the differences.


The Russian 7.62X 54R and is more like our 30-06, except rimmed



Edited to fix the link
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:50:07 AM EDT
First off 7.62x54R is Russian and not to be confused with either the 7.62 NATO or 308 Win.

Secondly, like the 5.56 vs 223 Rem catridge dimension issues there are similar differences between 7.62 NATO and 308 Win. (SAAMI spec)

This should help w/ that issue for ya: www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm

Mike
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:54:23 AM EDT
Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:56:56 AM EDT
I was given the same advice when I got CETME. I was told that commercial .308 has thin walled brass and the CETME will tear the empty brass in half upon extraction. Stick with the NATO/Surplus to avoid problems.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:06:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 8:13:48 AM EDT by TruePunisher]

Originally Posted By Weasel_Master:
I just bought my first Cetme. I was told not to shoot .308 and instead use 7.62x51. Now someone else told me that 7.62x51 is .308 WIN while .308 NATO is 7.62x54 (russian). What's the deal here? If I buy a can of linked .308 will this be NATO or WIN? This is what I get for impulse buying. hehe



There is not a .308 NATO. NATO it Metric not English as far as I understand.

Technicaly .308 is 7.8232 and .300 is 7.62 when using the conversion tools.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:28:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 8:32:12 AM EDT by FALARAK]
7.62x54 is NOWHERE CLOSE and cannot be fired (ore even chambered) in a .308 or 7.62x51 gun. Whoever told you that is wrong.

Externally, the cartidge dimensions are the same or very close and the bullets are the same diameter.

SAAMI spec .308 ammunition allows for higher pressure cartridge ranges than the NATO spec pressure. So we have thinner brass, and potentially higher pressure. Fine in bolt guns with SAAMI spec chambers. Not so great in loose chambered, gas operated, semi guns.

I have personally seen a CETME fire Federal factory .308 WIN ammunition, and almost half of the fired brass was cracked immediately. This CETME could have had excessive headspace (I dont know)... but you probably would not have seen these results shooting lower pressure, thicker brass, 7.62x51 NATO surplus ammo.

Dont confuse the .308/7.62x51 issue, with the .223/5.56x45 issue. While they both have distinctions - they differ.

To be safe - buy good quality 7.62x51 surplus ammo for your Cetme. This means Hirtenberger, Aussie, South African, Portugese, Lake City (quality is questionable), Argentine.

Stay away from Indian.

The South African is really the most available right now.... and the best deal: www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of__308.html

As a general rule - I dont shoot de-linked ammo, after seeing the problems that some of the Lake City had... and it was surpised that was because of the links contact areas weakening the case wall.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:09:06 AM EDT
FALARK does that mean I shouldn't buy linked ammo as the contact spots on the casing will be weaker?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:15:25 AM EDT
Either .308 or 7.62X51 works in a Cetme just fine. Nato stuff is cheaper thus you will use it more.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:20:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Weasel_Master:
FALARK does that mean I shouldn't buy linked ammo as the contact spots on the casing will be weaker?



I wont say that outright - because I only know what my experience was... and what Troy pointed out as the potential problem. So *I* wont buy linked ammo from use in a semi-rifle.... but I cannot say it is definitively a dangerous practice.


Originally Posted By Mattl
Either .308 or 7.62X51 works in a Cetme just fine.



I guess that depends on how you define the word... "works"
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:21:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:22:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Weasel_Master:
FALARK does that mean I shouldn't buy linked ammo as the contact spots on the casing will be weaker?



I wont say that outright - because I only know what my experience was... and what Troy pointed out as the potential problem. So *I* wont buy linked ammo from use in a semi-rifle.... but I cannot say it is definitively a dangerous practice.


Originally Posted By Mattl
Either .308 or 7.62X51 works in a Cetme just fine.



I guess that depends on how you define the word... "works"



Mine feeds and fires ball no problems. One FTF but that was the ammo, the striker fell.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:34:51 AM EDT
7.62x51 NATO ammunition tends to have thicker case walls than .308 Winchester. The CETME is not easy on brass and you can experience case-head seperations with .308 ammo. I've had this happen to my "Black Widow." Ripped the rim off, pain in the butt to remove the brass.

I don't think the pressure differences are as clear cut as most people say. Not all 7.62 NATO is the same, as Cruffler pointed out. It's generally said that .308 is hotter than 7.62 but there is a voice of dissent: http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:02:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:26:34 PM EDT
Factory commercial .308WIN ammo fired from a Cetme:




A case that did not fracture - but visible signs if brass stretching seen on the exterior:




I cross-sectioned one of the cases - that had ZERO external signs of stress... note the stretched-thin area where the other cases broke:

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:35:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:38:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 12:39:43 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Weasel_Master:
I just bought my first Cetme. I was told not to shoot .308 and instead use 7.62x51. Now someone else told me that 7.62x51 is .308 WIN while .308 NATO is 7.62x54 (russian). What's the deal here? If I buy a can of linked .308 will this be NATO or WIN? This is what I get for impulse buying. hehe



The linked shit si PORTUGESE 7.62 NATO, it comes linked for the M60/M240B

It will do just fine in your CETME

The differences between .308Win and 7.62x51 (7.62 NATO) are not as pronounced as .223 vs 5.56x45...

Mainly because 7.62 NATO was the original cartridge (.308 being the commercialization) whereas commercial .223 was the original, with 5.56mm being the 'militarized' version....
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:51:51 PM EDT
I bought the Portugese stuff today. Needed to shoot something and wasn't about to buy the other option (Indian).
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:02:02 AM EDT
I've been buying portugese 7.62 NATO linked in 200rnd cans for $35-$39 per can. Can't beat the price and after a few cans you can sell the links for some extra cash to put towards more. I hope this stuff don't dry up any time soon. Not to mention you'll have the cans to store shit in...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:07:09 AM EDT
CETMEs don't have chamber flutes?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:23:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:
I've been buying portugese 7.62 NATO linked in 200rnd cans for $35-$39 per can.



Where ya been buying that at? I wanted some ammo to mess around with this weekend so I broke down and bought some. Was 60 for 200 rounds. The only cheaper stuff was Indian. I'll be definately buying off the net from now on.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 8:07:52 PM EDT
I hope this is not too late but do not shoot .308 in the CETME, ONLY 7.62 NATO. REad the manual the gun came with, if you still have questions got to cetmerifles.com for more info.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:26:46 AM EDT
7.62 NATO is .308 Winchester. very slight difference in dimensions, etc, but just to confirm, 7.62 NATO IS NOT 7.62X54R!!!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:41:04 AM EDT

My HK91 has never had a problem with commercial ammo. It's not supposed to have a problem until you get to heavier bullet weights.

If the extractor is tearing off the rear of the case you probably have chamber issues. The HK91 "extractor" is more of a brass holding device than an extractor. Even when removed the brass still extracts on its own, it just fails to ejects.

If the brass is stretching the headspacing may be on the long side.

If you have a CETME clone it is probably best to stick with NATO brass since the clone is probably built from worn out parts, hence all the problems others are having and blaming on the ammo.

The above photos of "Cetme" brass have no visible flute marks. Very odd.
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