So a few of us decided a thread on accurizing would be nice, I figured I'd post some links and tag some people to try to get them to show up.  Please, contribute everything you can, even brainstorming ideas, and tag anyone you know on here with some knowledge on the topic. I don't have much to add, personally, but someone needed to make the thread.


There's a significant amount of cynicism and, frankly, bullshit, regarding this topic. If you're here to say "it's a battle rifle, why do you want it to be accurate?" or "Never modify a FAL that works well," then save the bandwidth and patting yourself on the back and just go away. Nobody cares, there's clearly a demand to discuss this topic, and these threads seem to always get ruined by people parroting those lines.


Unfortunately, the longest thread I know of has been stripped of pictures by Photobucket's recent decision to monetize:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324116

Ed Vanden Burg makes some nice FALs, it'd be cool to get his opinions, if anybody knows him.
http://www.vandenbergcustom.com/rifles-main/fals

@stimpsonjcat
@bigjunk1

It would be interesting to see how well Vandenbergs 26" model does. Quality components, and hand loads. 

Anyone have one?

There's a really long FAL Files topic on this, as I recall.  I've posted the targets here from one member over there.  He was shooting out past 700 yards and consistently at every range was getting sub-2MOA.  His rifle was a minty StG-58 parts kit built on an IMBEL Type 4 receiver with a DSA scope mount and some sort of U.S. Optics scope that he was using at its 10X setting, shooting from a rest, ammo being Federal 168-grain GMM.  He was shooting 10-15 round groups to get those results.  The FAL definitely has potential to be more than accurate enough, from a practical perspective.

Any idea what the files thread title was?

I'm also curious about the Type 4 receiver - not familiar with that.

According to what I've read on the Files, it's a Type 3 that has had a couple of small changes to make it easier to make via a casting, such as changing the shape and radii of the lightening cuts above the magwell.  IMBEL's are nevertheless still forged, IIRC.


The thread title had 2MOA in it, but I forget what it's called.

What makes a 2 MOA FAL?
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252566

That's the one!

Ah, got it. In effect it's an enthusiast designation, not something that FN ever did.

I got paged?

But seriously, the removal of vertical play in the bolt/carrier/receiver is the most important part IMNSHO.

I have some plans for various re-designs of the gas system, as well as how to better mount an optic and get the rear sight off the lower.  I want to do a custom bbl from a blank also.

I just have been busy with other hobbies lately.

The FAL just has a lot of metal moving around when it operates...minimizing that is a legit goal.

Bigstick,
I had heard in the past that STG58 barrels and headspace on the tight end of the specification are the keys to having a good shooting FAL. I need to get my STG barreled gun out and actually shoot it for accuracy, but I believe it needs to be headspaced. Unfortunately, it's a Century gun so I want to go over it with a fine tooth comb before shooting it. The barrel has been cut to a little over 16", so maybe the mechanically more stiff barrel will help some.


I'd be interested to know what your plans are for resolving the vertical play issue, I had thought some years back about maybe building up some metal on the top of the bolt with a welder, and then hand fitting the carrier to the bolt. I'm too afraid to do it, though.

The 'best' solution seems to be adding weld on the rear shelf inside the carrier.  It's pretty easy to clamp the carrier in a mill after doing that and remove material in a controlled way.  Messing with the bolt itself (heat treat wise) seems dangerous to me.

"Fear is the mind-killer..."

I vaguely remember someone turning Remington 700 barrels to fit a FAL, but I cant find the thread.  Probably bit photofuct's dust too...

My best accuracy came from better sights and tuning the ammo to suit the gun.  At one point I even had a williams receiver sight on mine and a FS filed to a point.  

I found that polymer tipped 155's, loaded as hot as I could get them just kept shooting better and better.  I was all the way up several grains past the max load, and in the range where I was not only flattening , cratering, and blowing primers, I was getting every one of the symptoms that make experienced reloaders cringe.    I am shocked I didn't blow up my gun.

Isn't there some solid Brit lore on this?

Anglo-Saxon nations like their target guns and the Brits were able to make things like SMLE shoot. I know in the '80s or '90s the Brits were using FALs for 1,000 m target shoots.

Curious about what these things can do . . .

Maybe they just turned off the gas.

I would bet on turned off gas AND single-shot, not knowing crap about that (which I don't). 

One of my favourite (untested) ideas for accurizing the FAL involves turning off, and also on, the gas system.

Please elaborate.

I have posted in other threads over the years about how to make a more accurate FAL. I will list the main things.
First you need a rifle with a good barrel capable of ever being accurate. Old shot out parts kits are never going to be great shooters.

1=The biggest problem with FAL's and accuracy is that the tilting bolt puts upward pressure against the chambered round as the mag touches the bottom of the carrier. Filing, milling, sanding the connection between the upper and lower half of the bolt carrier is essential to the rifle ever being accurate. The upper and lower of the carrier need to be sanded correctly and just enough that no pressure is pushing against the lower carrier in a way that makes the round off center in the chamber. Sanding to much may make the carrier not work correctly.
2=Opening the chamber mouth. Many FAL's will chamber a round but the tip of the round will hit the mouth of the chamber as it enters. Sanding, polishing the bottom of the chamber enough that the tips of the rounds are not flattened or damaged is obviously a must unless you load each round by hand.
3=The handguard. Floating a FAL barrel will not improve accuracy. The vibration from the gas and piston movement will always be part of the rifle and transfer to the barrel. Using a clamp on handguard like the DSA railed handguard will lock everything tighter and decrease vibration. The handguard should not bind or put pressure on the barrel causing it to sit out of it's natural position when installed.
4= Install a bumper. Glue a piece of rubber to the rear of the receiver or buy a bumper made for it. Cutting down vibration as much as possible helps the gun all around. The carrier smacking the rear of the receiver during cycling can be less severe with a bumper.
5=The scope mount. I use a DSA scope mount but changed the mounting bolts to allen head and it holds zero fine. I am sure others work fine also. The scope must be mounted solid.
6= The trigger. The FAL has usually has a decent trigger but adjusting the trigger to a smooth and light pull will help. There are videos of how to improve the trigger.
7=The stock. A folding stock is nice but a solid stock is going to be more accurate and attached more solid to the rifle. A solid stock with a comfortable cheek riser will work nicely.
8= A target crown and brake. Make sure the crown of the barrel is polished smooth and is centered perfectly. Use a brake that reduces recoil. This is a .308 after all
9= the gas. Make sure the gas is adjusted so the gun cycles but with as little gas and vibration as possible.
10= The bipod. The bipod can put pressure on the front end and change the POI. Using a lock on handguard for the bipod to attach to seems to resolve the pressure on the barrel causing POI shifts. No matter what the bipod is supporting the front end and can put upward pressure on the barrel. Attaching the bipod in the best location along the handguard is something to experiment with. Usually the closer to the receiver the better.

These are the top 10 things to work on. Some are just common sense and some are actual improvements that must be done to have an accurate FAL. Number 1 is the most important and rarely done or even known of. The amount of adjustment to the upper and lower carrier is on a rifle to rifle basis. A carrier that runs perfectly and is adjusted so no pressure is on a chambered round in one rifle will not necessarily work the same in another FAL.
A FAL is usually considered a battle rifle and not a top pick for accuracy. A FAL is easily as accurate as other piston driven semi auto rifles but they do require some work to become their best.
With the proper ammo my SPR set up FAL can consistently be a 1 moa gun. Every time I post groups or claim a FAL can be a moa or less rifle people are non believing but with the proper set up it is possible.  

Couple questions on the list above.

#1: Not getting this part.  Is it even possible to avoid getting pressure on the bolt from an inserted mag without taking the bolt out of battery?  Even if you're talking about the upper top area of the bolt, sanding that would only increase its propensity to push up on the base of the round.

#4: What does a bumper have to do with accuracy?  By the time the bolt carrier cycles back that far, the bullet has been out of the barrel for quite some time.

#7: How does a fixed stock increase accuracy over a folding stock?

yes, the misaligned pressure from the mag can be removed if the upper and lower are sanded and mated properly. The top side of the lower half ( mainly the front) and the inside of the top of the upper half are the areas that need machined. This allows the lower to raise up high enough that the round is centered in the chamber and not held at an angle. Mating a bolt carrier to a receiver and removing small amounts at the proper locations and test fitting over and over till it is perfect does take some time. If I remember correctly the extractor will end up about level with the top surface of the lower carrier once material is removed. I have not did it for many years.

The round has left the barrel by the time the bolt hits the rear but a bolt carrier that cycles softer is more likely to remain undamaged and cycle into the same foreward position every time. Less likely to change, move or damage anything.

I think a fixed stock will have less movement and better overall stability than a folding stock. I'm sure it depends on the stock and folders exist that are solid as well. The more solid the stock the more accurate you will typically be with any rifle.

#1: Some material would have to removed from the underside of the bolt forward of the locking shelf to prevent the top round in the magazine stack from contacting the bolt while it is in battery.

#7: Even a tightly locking Para stock will have some amount of movement available. A fixed stock eliminates this variable.

Some material?

Is it even possible to eliminate the top round contacting the bolt while in battery? The top round in a mag contacts either the bolt or bolt carrier (while in battery) in every design I can think of.

I will have to look at my FAL's when I get home to remember exactly what is changed with the carrier connection. When I say no pressure on the bolt I am meaning no pressure that transfers to the round as it is held in the chamber like there usually is. FAL's naturally have pressure on the lower carrier  from the rounds in the mag and the lower will have movement as it holds the chambered round slightly tilted up to the chamber. This allows chambered rounds not only to have upward pressure on them but also to be in different locations in relation to the chamber each time it cycles. By adjusting the upper and lower carrier the lower can be made to sit completely stiff so no pressure is transfered to the chambered round and its held centered correctly with the chamber. I believe the lower still touches the rounds in the mag but there is no movement or effect on the chambered round so any movement from pressure is stopped at the bottom of the lower carrier.
I am likely not the best at explaining what I am trying to say.
The FAL bolt carrier is very close to being precision compatable. I think the design actually works very well and possibly was meant to work like mine now do. Possibly the precision fit from gun to gun made it easier to rely on the existing carrier shape rather than trying to work with the small tolerences required for each gun to be custom fit with a carrier. Possibly working with tighter tolerences of the bolt leads to less reliability in full auto is why the existing bolt shape came about? Basically the FAL's bolt does not fit the gun perfectly as it comes, it must be machined to give a perfect fit. After the upper and lower carrier halves are machined correctly they do become a perfect fit.

If this is for me then I apologize, but until I sort it out I don't want to discuss it.  But I did kind of explain the idea.  What if you could fire a FAL with the gas turned off, but then also have the gas turned on when you needed it?



Regarding the bolt lock up.  It's probably simpler to think of it this way.  What you want is for the bolt to move down onto the locking shoulder the same distance every time.  That distance doesn't matter near as much as it being consistent.

So think about everything that forces the bolt down and you can see the solution(s).  

-the bolt carrier rides in the rails in the receiver...remove any slop here that isn't necessary for function
-the bolt moves in the bolt carrier, add/remove material from the carrier to make this consistent

I do agree on the feed geometry.  Removing any issues that inconsistently deform the unfired cartridge geometry is a very good thing.

If you want to make your puzzler sore check out the 8mm FAL video and particularly the discussion around 3:40 and 4:40



Bolts and magazines interfering...indeed.

It was for you. OK I understand what you're saying. Thanks.

I'm interested in point #1, as well. Perhaps I'm a bit asleep, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you guys are saying. If you guys have a chance, could you post some pictures of what you're talking about? I'm interested in this because I've always heard that the bolt is the the biggest reason the FAL is less accurate than most other rifles.

It seems the FAL is incredibly sensitive to harmonics, as well. I'm curious as to why, perhaps the fact that they generally have pretty skinny barrels, but fairly heavy bolt carrier/bolt assemblies?

ETA: Regarding my second question;
I was just thinking about this some more. Have any of you guys with experience with stuff like the Browning BOSS system or the Limbsaver thing whose name I can't recall tried that on the FAL? I'm wondering whether it's better to have something on the end of the barrel, or further back. It'd be fairly easy to come up with something to clamp onto the grooves of the STG58 style hider. I suppose a clamp under the handguards would work, as well, but would be significantly harder to adjust.
I ask this because, as I mentioned, my STG58 has a cut barrel, so I don't have much room outside of the flash suppressor or under the handguards to work with.

I see the problem.

To fix the mating of the receiver and the bolt/carrier you generally have to ADD material, not remove it.

This may be what is confusing some posters.

To test for this is simple:
-load a mag full of ammo (if you're a safe person) or empty brass (if you have a short attention span)
-take the dust cover off
-leave bolt/carrier in locked up position
-rock the magazine in while watching the rear end of the carrier/firing pin

If it moves then you have some slop that, if removed, might improve your rifle's accuracy.

In the end, you don't remove the pressure from the ammo pushing on the bolt.  You change the bolt/carrier/receiver geometry so that pressure cannot cause movement in the bolt/carrier.

I hope that helps.

I have 2 FAL's at the moment and both worked out basically the same as far as removing material. I did the same thing to another FAL and it was the same also. I end up removing quite a bit. I would guess the front end of the lower bolt carrier needed raised up about 1/8'' from it's original position when locked in compared to where it originally sat to line up rounds straight with the chamber and remove any wobble / pressure on the round. That is a lot when your talking about a bolt carrier.
The upper carrier has a small strip / ridge of steel across the very front on the underside of the top that the lower bolt carrier slides along. It's approx 1/8'' wide and goes from the left to right side. The strip of steel gets removed and the flat surface area above it is then raised even higher. The lower bolt carrier also gets quite a bit of material removed in the top front area where it would slide on the upper carrier's ridge that is removed. I end up removing material from both because it was easier to shape everything and the amount of material to be removed is to much to remove from just one. My lower bolt carriers top surface that slides along the removed uppers ridge is about 1/32'' higher than the extractors top flat surface now after removing material. The back half of the bolt carrier seems to be at the correct height and I did not need to alter it as far as I can tell or remember..
I do not have a standard carrier to compare to with me but by looking at some photos and seeing the machining on mine this appears to be what was altered for the bolt carrier to line up with the chamber and lock in solid when fully in battery.
I would post pictures but I don't even know how to anymore with photobucket 3rd party hosting stuff.
Hopefully the description is enough that those interested can play with their carrier and understand the concept. When looking at the FAL bolt carrier as it is in  battery and holding a round pay attention to the round and chamber line up. Lock a ''dummy'' round into the bolt carrier if possible and then push the carrier forward while pushing on the bottom of the carrier to mimic a loaded mag. Once a round is stripped from a mag and loads into the chamber the carrier is holding the round at the rear. The round has to sit into the chamber but it is also attached to the carrier. What normally happens is the carrier is actually being held in place by the rear of the round and the round allows the carrier to wobble and the pressure from the next round in the mag is able to move the round around. This all happens because the carrier is not lined up and sitting solid directly behind the chambered round  and this will have a big effect on accuracy.

FAL's have fairly thin barrels for a .308, (most do). If shooting for groups it helps to fire a few preparation rounds to heat up the barrel. A warm barrel and a cold barrel will most likely have a different POI. If your first shot is fired from a cold barrel and your shooting a 10 round group the last shot will be from a much hotter barrel.
My FAL's tend to be most precise in grouping when the barrel is warm but not overly hot. Warming the barrel and waiting a minute or so between shots gives the best groups.
I like having a thread on FAL accuracy. Over the years I have been very interested in FAL's and improving accuracy while most everyone else seems to just assume FAL's are not accurate enough to bother with.
Sure a bolt rifle or AR10 are naturally more precise out of the box but what's fun about that?

I think the fun is that once you make them accurate, they stay that way. From what I'm reading here, the FAL is one of, if not the most, difficult semi-auto to accurize. It sounds like it's difficult to keep them tuned also. I know M14 types have to be re-tuned periodically (largely due to the stocks) but this seems way worse.

It also sounds like even the most accurate examples shoot over 1 MOA.

That makes it not worth it to me, but I think people should do whatever is fun for them. 

I want to understand what you are explaining, but the terms are strange.

There are two bolt-related parts, the bolt, and the bolt carrier.  I am not sure what you mean by 'lower bolt carrier'


Image is from www.gunthings.com

I don't think anyone is expecting to print cloverleaves with a FAL, but it seems silly to me to not even try to improve a $1000+ rifle. That's kind of how I look at it, I don't have any particular goal except for "better," or any reason other than " I like the FAL(and have a ton of FAL mags and two rifles)."

I am referring to the bolt as the lower half of the bolt carrier. Because the bolt and carrier of a FAL are two main sections that make up what most will recognize as the ''bolt carrier'' I figured more people would understand that way. I see how it was confusing.

Yes, from my experience even my SPR set up  FAL with a brand new barrel and every part mated with perfection and much effort put into making it as accurate as possible is still not able to group with what most would consider precision. It is a <>1 moa rifle.  I think most FAL's will be 2-4'' MOA rifles and possibly 1 MOA being the most precise example of them.
 If a rifle capable of 1/2'' or less MOA is what someone wants then a FAL is not it. Semi auto rifles are rarely capable of sub MOA in my experience other than some examples of AR15's and that is mostly due to the non-piston design. I would guess that AR .308's are capable of sub MOA as well but not much better.
As far as being useful as a SPR, even a 1 MOA rifle equals headshots at 800 yards, 2 MOA equals headshots at 400 yards. FAL's being .308 semi auto rifles and built like tanks make them hard to beat as a SPR assuming they have been made accurate enough.  
A precision built FAL makes more sense to me as a SPR than a carry rifle because of it's size and weight. If someone wants to carry a FAL around as their main rifle it will certainly do the job but there are better options. In the modern world of 6 pound compact rifles capable of stopping someone at several hundred yards a FAL is fairly outdated.  I do love them though.

OK, going back through your post again, I think I understand your process.  You have moved the bolt UP away from the influence of the magazine pressure.

The standard solution I have seen has been to ADD material to force the bolt/carrier to be as far DOWN as possible when locked up so that the magazine pressure is irrelevant.

I will spend some clock cycles thinking about the ideal alignment of the bolt and chamber.  This would be ideal, but consistency should be possible with offset as long as it is...well...consistent.

I imagine there are other possible ways to get the bolt to remain solid when in battery.  Enlarging the carrier rails or widening the bolt would snug up everything.
Unless the bolt is sitting directly behind the chamber when in the locked position I think there will always be pressure twisting the chambered round even if the carrier and bolt are solid.  The chamber is in a constant position and if the bolt is not lined up directly behind it the chambered round will have some unwanted pressure as it spans between the two.

3 and 10 would seemingly conflict with each other.  Does no one make heavy profile FAL bbls?

The FAL / SLR / L1 / C1 / T48s were fine battle rifles meant for fire and maneuver and dependability.  Battle accuracy was good enough for military competition (I had a friend whose service in the British Army's Green Jackets regiment started at 17 -- too young to deploy to Northern Ireland they sent him to shoot SLRs at Bisley.  Once he hit 18 he was on the first thing smoking to Ireland).

The FAL suffered from lack of a solid scope mounting system -- the stamped dust cover didn't provide a really solid foundation though the Trilux, SUSAT, and (Starlight) night sight gave some capability.

The example I personally saw ran out of steam to consistently hit E-type silhouettes past 500 yards with 155s, 168s, and 175s, though it may have been because of a worn barrel.

A very good cut-rifled and properly crowned target barrel should give nothing away to any other self-loader out to 600 given good ammo and proper fitting.

I always thought it much more comfortable to shoot than an M14 and many orders of magnitude better than a G3.

My sample of one responded really well to a barrel chop and recrown, replaced the trigger, bedding the upper receiver locking lug into the lower with JB weld, Hampton A2 sights, and handloads.

Barrel, ammo, trigger, and sights are the universal factors. Consistent lock up is specific to the FAL.

The gun writer, Patrick Sweeney, had an article on accurizing the FAL rifle and his number 1 setup was the ammo.

150 TAP Hornady, seems to be the key.

I''ve confirmed this on my Stg58 type 1, my lithgow L1A1, and my Enfield L1A1, all were happy campers on the 150 gr Police TAP from Hornady.


Making sure everything is tight and locked up and also the buffers helped in the rear.

Managed a good 10 shoot group of 1.25 MOA consistently....but after ten shots it goes up to 2 MOA.

Does it vertically string?

.
FAL's will open up with a hot barrel. Pace yourself and wait a minute or so between shots trying to keep the barrel a constant temp., warm but not overly hot.
Barrels / steel tends to change shape as is is heated. Expansion, contraction, deformation is a natural occurrence to steel when heated. A fatter barrel will change less but this is true of all barrels and FAL's generally have thin barrels. All barrels will heat from rounds being fired but it is possible to monitor the temp. by pacing the amount of rounds fired to the natural cooling. The temp. outside and sun / shade will effect how long between shots to wait. You can touch the barrel and tell when it is getting excessively hot or gaining temp.
Keeping the barrel a constant temp. should give constant grouping.

Has anyone built a 6.5mm Creedmoor?

It strings vertically....


So far....make sure everything is tight and finding the right ammo works for me.


TAP Hornady Police .

It is all doable.....

and for a 1k rifle..why the hell not in making it more accurate.

BufferTech made a great rear bumper for it ....they worked well.