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Posted: 10/3/2002 6:49:38 PM EDT
Ok, here's the deal. Bought a CIA L1A1 sporter, realized it was crap, sent it back. Bought an AR instead. Now i'm looking again at buying another gun, and was looking at two "remanufactured" FALs on the market: the DSA arms STGA58 "authentic austrian rifle" (looks very nice) and the Entreprise arms "Imbel Rifle". Just want to know about quality, function, accuracy, whatever you might know that could help your fellow man...Which one would you choose? Also, what's the diff between the DSA type I and II receivers? What configurations are these guns, as far as metric vs. inch? THanks for the help, 'preciate it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2002 10:21:29 PM EDT
Ok I'm going to do my good deed for the day and tell you to go with DSA. Been there and done that with Entre'prise receivers. DSA's are machined from billet steel, the Entre'prise from a casting. Also, machining tolerances and heat treat are held to much stricter standards on the DSA.

The DSA you are looking at is built on an excellent condition Austrian STG-58 kit. You will like it. As far as I'm concerened the STG's are the cream of the crop of the FAL kits. The Austrian kits typically have less use, hence wear, than other kits. I bought 2 STG kits that were apparently new rifles that were unissued and unfire. They made really nice rifles.

The type 2 receiver was designed to be more durable on a full auto weapon. For us it's simply a cosmetic difference. You can see picturs of it at DSA.com and at falfiles.com. I have DSA type 1's, 2's, and an Entre'prise type 3. I like the appearance of the type 2 the best.

The STG-58 and the Imbel are both metric FAL's. The STG was initially produced in Belgium at FN for the first 20,000 guns and thereafter at Steyr in Austria. The Imbel is made in South America, Brazil I think.

In short, the DSA rife is a better kit built on a better receiver.
Link Posted: 10/3/2002 10:47:26 PM EDT
I'll second the STG58A suggestion. $795 dealer price, you can't beat. Find a friendly FFL that won't rape you on the markup, and you'll have a GREAT rifle at a GREAT price.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 10/3/2002 11:14:32 PM EDT
DSA , I have a SA58 rifle & a STG58 carbine.

The carbine is finished just as nicely as the rifle.

Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:50:53 AM EDT
Listed below is the review I wrote after receiving a DSA STG-58 from my FFL. After about 500 rounds, these guns appear to be new since the trigger is better new. Some of the magazines appear to have very strong springs that need to be broken in. Heres my initial review:


Picked up my new DSA Type II STG-58 FAL from my FFL the other day. I've
heard that even though these guns have *some* used Austrian parts,
they are virtually new. We'll what I have heard is true. The gun
appears new. The only *blemish* I noticed was a small amount of
discoloration on the carry handle but you have to look hard to
find it.

The handguards, stock and pistol grip are new. The upper and lower
receiver have a charcoal gray finish and match in color. Upon breaking
down the rifle, I notice the design of the FAL is made for reliability
with a bolt carrier that fits somewhat loose by design. Breaking down the
the bolt carrier, I noticed a small pin holding the firing pin in
place. This pin is easily removed. The firing pin is somewhat
discolored and appears to be used. The bolt carrier is covered with
a light coat of grease which I removed and then lubriated all the parts
with with Breakfree. Hope this is the correct method.-:) The Belgium
FN/FAL manual that comes with the gun leaves out lots of details.

The gas piston can be accessed and by turning gas plug assembly a full
turn where it pops out. The gas piston and spring appear new. From
what I understand the gas piston should be cleaned after use. I lubed
it with Breakfree and put it back together.

The barrel was shiny but had a small amount of power residue from
test firing. After a few strokes with patches soaked in Tetra solvent
followed by a bore brush and 4 dry patches, the barrel was shiny and
looks like new. Wow, I was impressed.

Enough of the aesthetics, lets see how it shoots. With the help of
Q-man, we had it on target at 100 yards after about 40 rounds.
Trigger pull is somewhat typical of military guns, probably a little
worse than an AR-15 but I'm biased, since I have 3 AR's. Recoil is
not bad but my right cheek bone was sore after shooting 50 or so
rounds from the bench. I'll have to loosen up my cheek weld in the
future. Q-man shot better groups than I did using Porteguesse(?)
and South African surplus. For me, accuracy was around 2-5 inches
at 100 yards. My old eyes just don't do well with the irons.
I've got a DSA scope mount on back order, so plan on adding optics
it in the future. We had one failure to eject with the spent brass
getting caught when the bolt cylcled. This is not surprising since
cycling the bolt was stiff and has loosened up a fair amount.

DSA had the gas setting on 4 so I thought I would *improve* it. Wide open
at 7 caused a failure to lock back all the way. I tried 6 and the bolt
locked back. Great I thought. Less gas means less recoil. Loaded up
a mag and the rifle locked up tighter than a drum after the first shot
was fired. We banged on the butt while pulling the charging handle to
pop out the spent shell. I moved the adjustment to 5 and damn, the same
thing happened. Screw it, I moved it to 4 and the rifle functioned
flawlessly after that. Hmmm, maybe DSA knows something about setting
the gas adjustment. -:)

The only thing I didn't like about sighting it was that that the front
sight has two spring loaded plungers that need to be depressed
simultaneously. This required 2 of us to move the sight. From looking
at the catalog, DSA sells a sight adjustment tool for $15. I'll
buy one of these in the future.

I got 2 types of magazines from DSA, one used Autrian in excellent
condition and 4 Isreali new magazines. The Austrian mag pops in and
out with ease and only shows slight ware. The Isreali mags are tight but
after some use, loosen up enough to use reliably. I plan on ordering
more of the Austrian mags since they were made for the STG-58. Don't
get me wrong, the Israeli mags are new but the fit is slightly tight.

All in all, I'm very happy with the gun. If you want a rugged, battle
rifle, buy a DSA STG 58, you won't regret it.

spambo
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 1:18:34 PM EDT
hey guys, thanks for the help- you settled my mind on the FAL question! Now just to decide...do i get the FAL...or a VEPR II K......or maybe a Remington 700 in .308...decisions decisions!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:13:10 PM EDT
Get the FAL! The type one and two models differ only in some tiny changes which help prevent stress fractures on full auto weapons. I got the type two STG-58 kit guns - they are nothing sort of S-W-E-E-T!
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 12:02:25 AM EDT
AZEX is having a going out of business sale right now (I know, it's sad) and he's building a run of 50.00 clones. Excellent quality, one of the top rated FAL builders.

He also has at least one Izzy LB for sale.

DSA has a good reputation, but if you can get an AZEX for the same price, jump on it.

www.azexarms.com
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 10:27:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:
AZEX is having a going out of business sale right now (I know, it's sad) and he's building a run of 50.00 clones. Excellent quality, one of the top rated FAL builders.
www.azexarms.com



Going out of business ????

That is a shame!
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 1:40:06 PM EDT
How about the Israeli Arms M444 thst is sold by Dans sporting goods, It is an imbel receiverd gun built with an Imbel kit, The one I saw & shot was excellent!
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 3:23:48 AM EDT
IMHO DSA makes the best FAL that was ever made anywhere anytime - hands down. There is no argument in my book with regards to this rifle. It is the very best and makes everything else look cheap or cobbled together. My shorty is the sweetest shooting .308 I own and I spend afternoons happily making loud noises at the range. It has never ever choked on anything and I have been known to shoot some pretty green looking cheapo surplus through it. It time and time again tears out the ten ring on all my targets.
Link Posted: 10/11/2002 5:16:21 PM EDT
spambo
Is the barrel on the DSA STG58 carbine Chrome lined?
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 3:42:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 3:43:36 PM EDT by glazer1972]
I emailed DSA about the chrome lined bore and the told me it was an option and to let them know when I ordered.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 4:25:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glazer1972:
I emailed DSA about the chrome lined bore and the told me it was an option and to let them know when I ordered.



I bet that's an Argentine barrel

Those are very nice! I ordered one as an extra a few months ago & it is mint.

www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=001ARG&storeid=1&image=bblargentine.gif

Link Posted: 10/15/2002 4:45:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By glazer1972:
I emailed DSA about the chrome lined bore and the told me it was an option and to let them know when I ordered.



I bet that's an Argentine barrel

Those are very nice! I ordered one as an extra a few months ago & it is mint.

www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=001ARG&storeid=1&image=bblargentine.gif




What's the difference between an open ear gas plug and a closed ear gas plug? Seriously.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 5:07:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

What's the difference between an open ear gas plug and a closed ear gas block? Seriously.

-Gloftoe



I had the same question! I couldn't figure that out either. When I ordered I asked DSA
about it & he said the "open ear" version has
holes on either side of the front sight above the gas block where the little "ears" or sight "guards" are.




Does that make sense? Instead of the "ears" on either side of the sight being solid steel these are "open". I guess that might put more available light on the front blade but I dunno?

Closed ears is the norm so that's what I ordered.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 6:01:08 PM EDT
Garr...
DSA told me tht STG58 Carbine had a chrome chamber only, not the bore
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 7:35:08 PM EDT
Click on my post titled "Australian L1A1". That rifle has an open ear gas block you can see in the picture.

Link Posted: 10/16/2002 1:11:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

What's the difference between an open ear gas plug and a closed ear gas block? Seriously.

-Gloftoe



I had the same question! I couldn't figure that out either. When I ordered I asked DSA
about it & he said the "open ear" version has
holes on either side of the front sight above the gas block where the little "ears" or sight "guards" are.

www.ar15.com/members/albums/cnatra%2Fbblargentine%2Egif


Does that make sense? Instead of the "ears" on either side of the sight being solid steel these are "open". I guess that might put more available light on the front blade but I dunno?

Closed ears is the norm so that's what I ordered.



Go with the argie one, it'll last forever :))) also, that statement in that pic is FULL OF SHIT, argie barrels and bores have always been chrome lined. I've had the chance to check lots of Arige armed forced FAL barrels (from model I to model IV, and PARA) and they are ALL both bore and chamber chromed. And yes bro, the 'ears' are open to get more light in the front sight post, they look better IMO.
HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 5:12:29 PM EDT
I have 4 FALs that I built. Have you considered building your own FAL?

If you want a great out of the box FAL, the DS Arms STG58A is the top dog. The IMI M444 is a close second. IMHO, there is not $200+ difference between the M 444 and the STG58A. The STG58A and M444 are metric pattern Rifles while the L1A1/C1A1 are inch pattern. Used 20 rd mags for either pattern,in very good condition,can be had for $5.00 delivered.
The big drawback to the STG 58 rifle is the handguards. They are steel and get VERY HOT VERY Quickly. The M444 ( IMBEL Receiver on and IMBEL kit) are fiberglass and resist getting hot far longer than the steel ones. Unless you are going to blast thru mag after mag of ammo as fast as you can then the heat will not be a significant factor with the Fiberglass Handguards.
BTW, IMBEL of Brazil is a fine gun manufacturer. They are the makers of the Springfield Armory 1911 frames.

One of the cool factors of FAL rifles is that they were built in many different configurations and thus provide endless combinations for customizing.
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 7:19:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2002 7:22:43 PM EDT by garr]
FNFAL308
The big difference I noticed between the DSA STG58 & The M444 was the nice looking type 1 receiver with the lighting cuts on the DSA,I know it is a mostly a cosmetic thing, But to To some it justifies the price difference.

How are the Israeli type handguards at heat control? I love the way they look!
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 6:27:51 AM EDT

How are the Israeli type handguards at heat control? I love the way they look!


They seem to work better than either the synthetic (which work pretty well) or steel (which start to heat up noticibly after a single magazine).

The only thing you have to be careful about is accidentally grabbing the metal guard in front of the wood after sustained fired. Since the guards are vented there they heat up very quickly up there, while the wood stays confortable.

My LB clone project (still in process):



My HB clone (almost finished):



Link Posted: 10/29/2002 10:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:
AZEX is having a going out of business sale right now (I know, it's sad) and he's building a run of 50.00 clones. Excellent quality, one of the top rated FAL builders.

He also has at least one Izzy LB for sale.

DSA has a good reputation, but if you can get an AZEX for the same price, jump on it.

www.azexarms.com


I second the AZEX can't go wrong excelent work !!
DAVE
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:21:01 PM EDT
My FAL was built by Arizona Response Systems.

Awesome Gun!

My second choice: DSA.

Just my .02 cents...

Dave
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