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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:33:29 AM EDT
I'm quite aware of the affect on ar's. So what I'm asking is about those folding stocks or hinged stocks.

I've seen them offered on the LEO model on DSA'S website.

Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:36:39 AM EDT
A person would be able to add flash suppressors, bayo lugs and folding stocks to their FAL's. But you would still need to maintain the US parts count that is currently required. That is because of Bush l's ban on "imported assault weapons" in 1989.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:28:27 PM EDT
the DSA's are built on a US receiver right? so the us parts count rule doesn't apply to them?

notice all of the ? marks? I hate this gun law shit!
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 3:18:58 AM EDT
The parts count rule applies to all firearms, regardless of where the receiver was made. The receiver is just another "part" for those purposes.

Rocko
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 5:11:09 AM EDT

The parts count rule applies to all firearms, regardless of where the receiver was made. The receiver is just another "part" for those purposes.



As I understand it, the ban on imports affect gun parts more than the total rifle.
The AR15 is an American rifle.
If it was made in quantity elsewhere (any other country) & you decided you wanted to build one using all imported parts you couldn't. Even if you were to use a US made receiver as a starting point.
You would have to have the proper number of US made parts for the gun to be legal.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 5:39:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Princeton:
As I understand it, the ban on imports affect gun parts more than the total rifle.
The AR15 is an American rifle.
If it was made in quantity elsewhere (any other country) & you decided you wanted to build one using all imported parts you couldn't. Even if you were to use a US made receiver as a starting point.
You would have to have the proper number of US made parts for the gun to be legal.



Correct, more or less - perhaps I wasn't being very clear. You are somewhat incorrect in the statement about the proper number of US parts, though. The number of US parts doesn't mean anything - it is the number of foreign "parts" that count. The list below is what is considered a "part" for these purposes - if more than 10 of these are of foreign manufacture, then the rifle is considered imported and subject to 922(r). In answer to Red_Beard's question, you can see that the receiver is just another "part" for these purposes - it is "worth" no more or less than, say, a trigger.

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

Rocko
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 4:40:56 PM EDT
gun laws suck
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 3:01:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rocko:

Originally Posted By Princeton:
As I understand it, the ban on imports affect gun parts more than the total rifle.
The AR15 is an American rifle.
If it was made in quantity elsewhere (any other country) & you decided you wanted to build one using all imported parts you couldn't. Even if you were to use a US made receiver as a starting point.
You would have to have the proper number of US made parts for the gun to be legal.



Correct, more or less - perhaps I wasn't being very clear. You are somewhat incorrect in the statement about the proper number of US parts, though. The number of US parts doesn't mean anything - it is the number of foreign "parts" that count. The list below is what is considered a "part" for these purposes - if more than 10 of these are of foreign manufacture, then the rifle is considered imported and subject to 922(r). In answer to Red_Beard's question, you can see that the receiver is just another "part" for these purposes - it is "worth" no more or less than, say, a trigger.

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

Rocko



And the point is that if you add enough 'foreign made' parts to a colt Ar-15 you can end up with an 'illegal import rifle'
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:42:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
gun laws suck



duh
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:47:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 10:56:08 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Now, what I want to know is how does the ATF know when a parts kit is imported? Do they have a master registry they are keeping with all serial numbers... YEA RIGHT... I haven't seen them stamp anything on an import kit... So, how do they know that someone's FAL imported as a kit twelve years ago is different than one that arives on the boat today?

I really wonder just how the Agency could win a battle in court when there are no markings? Perhaps they are collecting the I/O order lists so that they can run around with their special USA MADE parts detectors? YEA RIGHT

And we argue about how likely a person is to get busted for having a flash suppressor on a post-ban. At least here is a serial number! The import laws only affect the kit, not the lower or when the weapon was assembled. Therefore, if my FAL kit was in the country before these import laws I don't need to worry...

Oh well, my kits are new imports and the US parts are worthy additions anyways for many kits... Still makes one scratch their head on just how the ATF would do this....

ATF: hmmm, you have one too many imported parts
Me: No, the trigger is US Made
ATF: My handy dandy detector says it isn't USA steel
Me: There is no USA made steel these days
ATF: That's your problem... give me your gun...!
Me: Yes Sir, Sorry Sir, Need to start a new Steel mill sir!

More proof that Stupid people can write laws that are nobody can enforse!
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 5:11:52 PM EDT
Not to rain on anybody's parade but I wouldn't count on the ban being repealed. In fact I really concerned that it may become even more restrictive.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 11:37:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALShootist:
Not to rain on anybody's parade but I wouldn't count on the ban being repealed. In fact I really concerned that it may become even more restrictive.




[fingersinears]LALALALALA-WERENOTLISTENINGTOYOU-LALALALALA[/FINGERSINEARS]

Link Posted: 6/6/2003 11:43:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Now, what I want to know is how does the ATF know when a parts kit is imported? Do they have a master registry they are keeping with all serial numbers... YEA RIGHT... I haven't seen them stamp anything on an import kit... So, how do they know that someone's FAL imported as a kit twelve years ago is different than one that arives on the boat today?

I really wonder just how the Agency could win a battle in court when there are no markings? Perhaps they are collecting the I/O order lists so that they can run around with their special USA MADE parts detectors? YEA RIGHT

And we argue about how likely a person is to get busted for having a flash suppressor on a post-ban. At least here is a serial number! The import laws only affect the kit, not the lower or when the weapon was assembled. Therefore, if my FAL kit was in the country before these import laws I don't need to worry...

Oh well, my kits are new imports and the US parts are worthy additions anyways for many kits... Still makes one scratch their head on just how the ATF would do this....

ATF: hmmm, you have one too many imported parts
Me: No, the trigger is US Made
ATF: My handy dandy detector says it isn't USA steel
Me: There is no USA made steel these days
ATF: That's your problem... give me your gun...!
Me: Yes Sir, Sorry Sir, Need to start a new Steel mill sir!

More proof that Stupid people can write laws that are nobody can enforse!



Silly Fool! You have forgotten you must prove your innocence to the ATF, not them prove your guilty! Duh!

SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 2:34:45 PM EDT
The ATF doesnt make the law. Innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers and all that jazz.

The burden of proof is on the Government. If you were prosecuted for having to many foriegn parts the prosecutor would have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the parts in question were in fact foriegn.

Now if they took you to civil court it would be different all they have to prove that there is "overwhelming proof" that the parts are foriegn. But then all they could do is sue for monetary damages.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:22:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 1:23:36 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By rocko:
The number of US parts doesn't mean anything - it is the number of foreign "parts" that count. The list below is what is considered a "part" for these purposes - if more than 10 of these are of foreign manufacture, then the rifle is considered imported and subject to 922(r).

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



So the magazine is a "rifle part"????



So hypothetically, attaching a ferrin-made magazine to a rifle with only 8 imported parts makes the whole rifle evil??

Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:44:17 PM EDT


So hypothetically, attaching a ferrin-made magazine to a rifle with only 8 imported parts makes the whole rifle evil??




That is correct. The flip side of that is that by removing said magazine, you can get yourself under the maximum EFP count.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:50:17 PM EDT
Yes, it is up to the gov't to prove guilt. However... do you really want to take it that far? Compliance with the law is pretty easy nowdays and most US parts are well marked. So you have a choice is complying where your defense is done in a conversation with an agent, "Yes sir, I am under the required EFP count. See here, I have a US marked hammer, trigger and sear, plus the charging handle, gas tube and pistol grip. See?". Or, you can tell the agent to prove you are not in compliance, be hauled into jail, post bail, hire a lawyer, have your property confiscated while the disposition of the case is worked out and eventually win because the gov't can't prove your hammer is made in Austria.

Ummm... how much money do you want to save by not complying?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:51:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
gun laws suck



Gun Laws are repugnant to the constitution!
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 8:49:20 AM EDT
The gun laws matter because law abiding citizens follow the law. That's what it's all about. Not how to prove this or that. Sure, you don't hear about all sorts of AW ban violations cases. It's a gun law. We all know that gun laws are for the LAW ABIDING, not those that are breaking them and could care less what they say.

Ross
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 9:06:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Now, what I want to know is how does the ATF know when a parts kit is imported? Do they have a master registry they are keeping with all serial numbers... YEA RIGHT... I haven't seen them stamp anything on an import kit... So, how do they know that someone's FAL imported as a kit twelve years ago is different than one that arives on the boat today?

I really wonder just how the Agency could win a battle in court when there are no markings? Perhaps they are collecting the I/O order lists so that they can run around with their special USA MADE parts detectors? YEA RIGHT

And we argue about how likely a person is to get busted for having a flash suppressor on a post-ban. At least here is a serial number! The import laws only affect the kit, not the lower or when the weapon was assembled. Therefore, if my FAL kit was in the country before these import laws I don't need to worry...

Oh well, my kits are new imports and the US parts are worthy additions anyways for many kits... Still makes one scratch their head on just how the ATF would do this....

ATF: hmmm, you have one too many imported parts
Me: No, the trigger is US Made
ATF: My handy dandy detector says it isn't USA steel
Me: There is no USA made steel these days
ATF: That's your problem... give me your gun...!
Me: Yes Sir, Sorry Sir, Need to start a new Steel mill sir!

More proof that Stupid people can write laws that are nobody can enforse!



It doesn't matter when the parts kit came in the US. It could have been here before the ban. What matters is what configuration the whole gun was in when the ban went into effect.

If you use a kit you bought before the ban, and build it now, you still have to comply with the parts rule. It doesn't matter when parts were made. What matters is what the configuration of the gun was when the ban went into effect.

A Ruger Mini-14 that was built before the ban, but didn't have any evil features (because a basic Mini-14 has none), would now be a post-ban gun. You can not legally add evil features to that gun, because it only matters that it was not in a "pre-ban" configuration (i.e. evil features) when the ban went into effect. Could they prove your Mini-14 was converted after the ban? It'd be pretty hard, but in some cases it would be possible.

Others are much eaiser to spot. Things like Bulgarian AK-74's, most CETMEs, etc. only came AFTER the ban, so you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that you have a pre-ban in those cases.

As for the FAL question, yes, you will need to keep up with the US parts count.

Ross
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 12:35:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:
The gun laws matter because law abiding citizens follow the law. That's what it's all about. Not how to prove this or that. Sure, you don't hear about all sorts of AW ban violations cases. It's a gun law. We all know that gun laws are for the LAW ABIDING, not those that are breaking them and could care less what they say.

Ross



i don't know about you, but for me at least, being a criminal is sounding much better than having to comply with such bullshit laws that aren't entirely proveable.

What prevents me from getting a USA stamp from a printing press or something, and labeling my Austrian parts USA?
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