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Posted: 9/27/2017 4:12:37 PM EDT
I've been in the market for an M1 carbine and just so happens my cousin who I have not seen in quite some time has one he wants to part with. It is a Winchester with an Exel Gardner import stamp. It is a rebuild with the bayonet lug, round bolt and a Rock Island stamp on the stock. He is asking 1,000 and will throw in a couple hundred rounds of ammo and some USGI mags.
Anything I need to know? Is the price on point?  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 5:25:47 PM EDT
[#1]
You should shoot any carbine first in order to test function. Carbines can look good on the outside but have worn or out of spec parts that would cause problems. Especially imports.
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Posted: 9/27/2017 8:31:15 PM EDT
[#2]
How much of it is Winchester? Just the barrel and receiver?
$1k is probably a fair price. I paid $950 for one a year ago that was ALL Winchester parts. Problem is, they aren't correct for the gun, but it was worth that. Winnies that are all 'correct' generally go for $1500 or more. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 10:41:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much of it is Winchester? Just the barrel and receiver? $1k is probably a fair price. I paid $950 for one a year ago that was ALL Winchester parts. Problem is, they aren't correct for the gun, but it was worth that. Winnies that are all 'correct' generally go for $1500 or more. |
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Posted: 9/28/2017 3:00:04 AM EDT
[#4]
The price is about right. It appears to have a nice high-wood stock, an expensive item if you are looking for one.
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Posted: 9/28/2017 6:56:13 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The price is about right. It appears to have a nice high-wood stock, an expensive item if you are looking for one. If it's as advertised, I would go for it at that price. If you don't want it, you can direct him to me. 
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Posted: 9/28/2017 9:23:54 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 9/28/2017 9:24:22 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 9/28/2017 9:47:28 AM EDT
[#8]
It has definitely been re-arsenaled. It has a Saginaw (SG in block) stock (nice one BTW), with a Rock Island Arsenal (RIA) stamp on it.
The flip safety and bayo lug are post-war upgrades. The adj. rear sight is as well, unless the SN puts it at very late war. All-in-all, it looks like a nice rifle. You will have fun shooting it. |
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Posted: 9/28/2017 10:37:05 AM EDT
[#9]
It has a Winchester barrel, which is promising. You need to tear that sucker down and see what else is Winchester. You may have hit paydirt.
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Posted: 9/28/2017 11:00:07 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks guys. As soon as I get it in my hands I will start the investigation and report back.
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Posted: 9/28/2017 11:02:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Just a cursory look tells me it is not all Winchester- original would be a flat bolt for one. Obviously the rear sight and barrel band is not Winchester so god knows what else. Personally I would only pay over 800 for a non import marked gun. The import mark hits the value hard. However adding 200 rounds of ammo ( providing it is not steel case) at say 30 cents a round helps a bit
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Posted: 9/28/2017 1:03:11 PM EDT
[#12]
While import marks still have a negative impact on the value of surplus firearms they have gone up in price in the last few years. OP's rifle without the import mark would go for 1200 and up in my area, and barrels are easy enough to change.
Winchesters always go for more than than most other carbines, even imports. |
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Posted: 9/28/2017 2:24:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Winchesters always go for more than than most other carbines, even imports. |
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Posted: 9/28/2017 2:27:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which makes absolutely no sense since they were the 2nd most prolific manufacturer of carbines. Not disagreeing with you but just noting the absurdity of sellers adding a premium for Winnies. Garands are the same way. |
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Posted: 9/28/2017 5:55:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Plus you're getting a wartime 2 rivet handguard to go with the high wood stock.
Overall looks like a good gun. |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 12:00:32 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were one of the few dedicated gun manufacturers to make carbines... unlike, say, IBM, National Postal Meter, and Rock-ola, whose regular products were wholly unrelated to firearms. |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 11:56:16 AM EDT
[#17]
I could see it going both ways but yea having a rifle made by IBM or Rock-Ola would be a neat talking point.
I've been researching this rifle with the information I have and it seems Winchesters are not that well thought of when it comes to fit and functionality for their build of the M1 carbine. I've even read where one guy over on the high road said the other manufacturers refused Winchester parts because they were so out of spec. Any truth to these rumor? |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 2:56:25 PM EDT
[#18]
If the muzzle and chamber are close to spec and the 'guts' aren't worn, you could have yourself a real nice carbine there. Do you plan to collect it or shoot it? If you want to shoot it, please, please don't shoot crap, commie steel ammo through it. It deserves to see only quality, brass cased ammo.
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Posted: 9/29/2017 3:24:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the muzzle and chamber are close to spec and the 'guts' aren't worn, you could have yourself a real nice carbine there. Do you plan to collect it or shoot it? If you want to shoot it, please, please don't shoot crap, commie steel ammo through it. It deserves to see only quality, brass cased ammo. |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 6:57:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Some folks are Winchester fans (fanatics) and will pay more for one over another USGI carbine just for the name. I would be more concerned with checking for muzzle wear. If you don't have a muzzle gauge use a M2 ball round not a 30 carbine bullet. The more showing the better the muzzle. Most other issues can be taken care of fairly inexpensively on a carbine.
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=28508 |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 7:31:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a cursory look tells me it is not all Winchester- original would be a flat bolt for one. Obviously the rear sight and barrel band is not Winchester so god knows what else. Personally I would only pay over 800 for a non import marked gun. The import mark hits the value hard. However adding 200 rounds of ammo ( providing it is not steel case) at say 30 cents a round helps a bit Lots to know about carbines, there's a reason there's books hundreds of pages long on them. OP, do some research on the net, lots of info out there from people who are actually knowledgeable about the guns and won't feed you bad info. |
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Posted: 9/30/2017 10:26:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right now the plan is to shoot it. I'll avoid steel case no worries. Edit to Add: One of the best sources for M1 Carbine information is The U.S. Carbine Caliber .30. You could start with the info there and expand your knowledge considerably. |
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Posted: 10/1/2017 1:10:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Thanks guys. I'll check out those books and the site for using M2 ball for checking wear. Will post up serial number as soon as I get it.
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:23:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Looks like a very nice carbine.
You got a good price, Winchester is one of the "upper end" brands...or one of the flavors that is of a little higher value to collectors. It is not common to find somethng that is "all" this or that....they started live as mixmasters for most of them....remember war on, get tools in folks hands was the priority....I have said it before but the famous UN-Quality is the perfect example. If you reload try reloading for it....the little gun really comes alive if you work up loads for each rifle....huge fun, and handy as all hell, plus it shoots something that is in the same ball park as a 357, and no one has ever called it underpowered. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:55:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which makes absolutely no sense since they were the 2nd most prolific manufacturer of carbines. Not disagreeing with you but just noting the absurdity of sellers adding a premium for Winnies. Garands are the same way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Winchesters always go for more than than most other carbines, even imports. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 12:04:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, ... maybe it's different with the Winny carbine market, but having experience with Winny M1 Garands I can tell you what makes the prices asked so steep is that Winny was the only other maker of M1s during WW2. Winchesters sell because of the name. Nothing else. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 12:31:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, ... maybe it's different with the Winny carbine market, but having experience with Winny M1 Garands I can tell you what makes the prices asked so steep is that Winny was the only other maker of M1s during WW2. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 1:46:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like a very nice carbine. You got a good price, Winchester is one of the "upper end" brands...or one of the flavors that is of a little higher value to collectors. It is not common to find somethng that is "all" this or that....they started live as mixmasters for most of them....remember war on, get tools in folks hands was the priority....I have said it before but the famous UN-Quality is the perfect example. If you reload try reloading for it....the little gun really comes alive if you work up loads for each rifle....huge fun, and handy as all hell, plus it shoots something that is in the same ball park as a 357, and no one has ever called it underpowered. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 3:34:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which makes absolutely no sense since they were the 2nd most prolific manufacturer of carbines. Not disagreeing with you but just noting the absurdity of sellers adding a premium for Winnies. Garands are the same way. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 4:23:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been researching this rifle with the information I have and it seems Winchesters are not that well thought of when it comes to fit and functionality for their build of the M1 carbine. I've even read where one guy over on the high road said the other manufacturers refused Winchester parts because they were so out of spec. Any truth to these rumor? Conversely, at the 'best finished' end of the scale are both the HRA for the M1 Garands (after the war) and NPM for the M1 Carbines (during the war). However, collectors flock to the Winchester name so they command a higher price even though they were not as well finished. That said, as long as a carbine was accepted by the inspectors, it should perform well enough as it was to be used by someone in harm's way. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 2:56:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were eleven distinct manufacturers of carbines in WW2 if you count IP. Winchesters sell because of the name. Nothing else. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well, ... maybe it's different with the Winny carbine market, but having experience with Winny M1 Garands I can tell you what makes the prices asked so steep is that Winny was the only other maker of M1s during WW2. Winchesters sell because of the name. Nothing else. Only S.A. and Winchester built M1 Garands during WW2. With a limited amount of WW2 M1 Winnys still in circulation, and less than were ever made during the war by S.A., that scarcity alone boosts prices considerably - almost in disregard of condition as long as the receiver says, "Winchester." |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 7:38:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks. You just made my point as it regards Winchester Garands. Only S.A. and Winchester built M1 Garands during WW2. With a limited amount of WW2 M1 Winnys still in circulation, and less than were ever made during the war by S.A., that scarcity alone boosts prices considerably - almost in disregard of condition as long as the receiver says, "Winchester." Winchester Garands don't sell because of rarity either. They sell for the name. |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 12:11:35 PM EDT
[#33]
According to this link, Winchester was 2nd to Inland in the amount of production. So as the gentleman above me has pointed out a couple of times, their value is not because of how rare they are, I don't think. I suppose it's possible that somehow that particular manufacture survived less and there are less around in the states. But that seems unlikely.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/manufacturers.html |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 5:45:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
* * * Winchester Garands don't sell because of rarity either. They sell for the name. Yeah, as firearms go in general, Winchester is a "name." But in the WW2 M1 Garand market, Winnys are a rarity in the sense that only two sources made them, one being S.A., and those M1s are waaay more plentiful than Winny M1s. That's what's driving prices on the Winnys. |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 6:19:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still wrong, my dudenal .... Focus your shit and read carefully: Yeah, as firearms go in general, Winchester is a "name." But in the WW2 M1 Garand market, Winnys are a rarity in the sense that only two sources made them, one being S.A., and those M1s are waaay more plentiful than Winny M1s. That's what's driving prices on the Winnys. Relative rarity in and of itself does not drive a price up. Any number of factors can affect the price. Why are you even bringing this up in a thread that has nothing to do with the M1 Garand? |
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Posted: 10/7/2017 10:38:09 AM EDT
[#36]
I take delivery today! Very excited!
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Posted: 10/10/2017 8:46:39 PM EDT
[#37]
I took possession. Serial Number is Winchester 1270XXX
According to the sites I checked, that puts it around 1942. Does this mean it may have seen action in WW2? It also came with 1 mag. The only markings on the mag are PMC. Anyone have an idea what that refers too? |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 12:04:31 AM EDT
[#38]
If I get a chance, I might go through the Canfield book I have tomorrow. But there were a lot of sub contractors and different people that made stuff during the war and they all had their own markings. Like I've got a mag that is "IS" which is International Silver. And that list goes on and on. And they all didn't make everything.
As far as being made in 42, yes, it could've saw action. There's no way of knowing for sure. Could've sat in a rack in the states. Could've went up the hill on IWO. Could've been at Normandy. Who knows. If only these rifles could talk. One of mine is 42 and the other 43, if my memory serves me correctly. |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 7:32:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I get a chance, I might go through the Canfield book I have tomorrow. But there were a lot of sub contractors and different people that made stuff during the war and they all had their own markings. Like I've got a mag that is "IS" which is International Silver. And that list goes on and on. And they all didn't make everything. As far as being made in 42, yes, it could've saw action. There's no way of knowing for sure. Could've sat in a rack in the states. Could've went up the hill on IWO. Could've been at Normandy. Who knows. If only these rifles could talk. One of mine is 42 and the other 43, if my memory serves me correctly. |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 2:39:53 PM EDT
[#40]
All the USGI ones were made during WWII. The US didn't bring them all back and they have been scattered all over creation for various reasons. For example: the US officially gave some to South Vietnam to help support them. Another example is ones we've seen recently marked Bavarian Police. So the Bavarians used them on their police force officially at some point. But I'm not really sure how they got them. I'm assuming they also were given officially after the war, since we had so many over there in Europe. Either that or there were just so many laying around and they got scrounged and re-allocated by some thrifty people running that town. I don't really know the back story but you get the point.
Import markings just mean some company in the US bought them from some foreign place to bring it back at some point after the war. This is how I understand it. I'm no expert though. |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 3:14:34 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All the USGI ones were made during WWII. The US didn't bring them all back and they have been scattered all over creation for various reasons. For example: the US officially gave some to South Vietnam to help support them. Another example is ones we've seen recently marked Bavarian Police. So the Bavarians used them on their police force officially at some point. But I'm not really sure how they got them. I'm assuming they also were given officially after the war, since we had so many over there in Europe. Either that or there were just so many laying around and they got scrounged and re-allocated by some thrifty people running that town. I don't really know the back story but you get the point. Import markings just mean some company in the US bought them from some foreign place to bring it back at some point after the war. This is how I understand it. I'm no expert though. |
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Posted: 10/13/2017 1:40:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Well, only in that in the Military, actual combat personelle make up a kind of small percentage. There are far more support people and a lot of them carried guns in the war. So..... But I would think most that were carrying carbines were at least in theater. Seems like guys stateside might have been carrying older bolt guns and such. But I'm not really sure. It was a huge machine and I've looked at a lot of pics and documentaries in my time. But there's not much way to know if a gun saw combat or not. I'm sure The regiments had paperwork of the serial numbers of their weapons, but where you would actually find those. And the chances of finding a specific serial number on a gun you own to a armory listing somewhere would be like, next to impossible.
Just getting information on my Grandpa's service has been daunting because a lot of WWII records were lost in a fire in St. Louis where the were stored. There are other sources, but you again, probably get my point. I mean I don't know even know how many Regiments there were. 3 regiments per Division. There were a bunch. Then you have all the branches, since they all used the carbine. It's the proverbial needle in a haystack. |
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