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Posted: 3/2/2006 11:27:22 PM EDT
Need some opinions for a new scope for my SOP MOD build. This is what I came up with so far:

Night Force 2.5 X 10 with circle reticle or NPR-2
Acog TA11
USO SN4
Eotech.

I want to be able to use this thing for close up applications and rech out and touch someone if I have to. Your advice is welcomed and nedded. Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:34:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 3:35:08 AM EDT by H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted By X-man12:
Need some opinions for a new scope for my SOP MOD build.



What scope mount/rail are you planning to use on this build?
How far do you intend to reach out?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:06:53 AM EDT
The M14 SOP MOD comes with a full length rail on it. I want this thing to be able to reach out to 600 yards and at the same time since its going to be as small as the M4 I want to be able to use it for close up applications.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:18:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:20:16 AM EDT by H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted By X-man12:
The M14 SOP MOD comes with a full length rail on it.

I want this thing to be able to reach out to 600 yards and at the same time since its going to be as small as the M4 I want to be able to use it for close up applications.



This one?


Or something like this?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:17:47 AM EDT
Here is the link to the model I am referring to:

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=m14+sopmod+&spell=1
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:20:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 7:27:13 AM EDT by Achilles1]
Reaching out to 600 yards is one thing, ..................but actually hitting something is another. HaHa.hereLook at and read as much as you can into the various optics that are out there and that will give you a better understanding of what you'd like. If it were me and I was looking to set up the rifle for close combat (for the M14, 50 to100yards) with still getting some good long shots in, I'd put a Aimpoint 2x Comp3 with a 1 or 2 moa dot on the rifle and practice, practice, and practice some more, using it out to all the ranges I think I'd shoot at till I was an expert with it..............................................than I'd practice more to become a master.

Scopes


Added in: The Sopmod 1 is discontinued now unless you have it already. If you don't I wouldn't search one out. The Sopmod II is the new model from Troy Industries and definitely better than the first. It isn't released yet but is do to be released for sale in May from Troy. That's an excellent stock to go with.

Troy
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:54:08 AM EDT
The EOtech is all you need. The rifle is a 4 inch at 100 yards rifle. Think again about 600 yards.
Its close quarters combat material. I cannot believe how heavy they are.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:02:05 AM EDT
Thanks for the input mine will be here next week and I will probably stick with the eotech 551 with the Troy front sight. As far as the 2nd version being better I have no ideas. But what I do know is that a few buddies vacationing in the middle east these days says the Sop Mod is the SHI- well you know the rest.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:12:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 10:00:13 AM EDT by H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted By X-man12:
Here is the link to the model I am referring to:

SOPMOD



The rifle pictured is the DISCONTINUED Rock SOPMOD M-14 conversion.

You can run any scope you choose on the full legth rail found on the SOPMOD rifle and CBR stock.

I like the EOTech and have shot sub MOA groups @ 400 yards with surplus
ammo from my EOTech equipped MK14 in a SAGE EBR stock pictured below.

The 1 MOA center dot is very precise and the 65 MOA ring is great for fast close-in work.

Hitting targets @ 600 yards should not be a problem - I will use my old M8 Scout scope for long range shots.

HTH ~

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:37:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:40:45 AM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By DonD:
The EOtech is all you need. The rifle is a 4 inch at 100 yards rifle. Think again about 600 yards.
Its close quarters combat material. I cannot believe how heavy they are.



It depends on the particular M1A in question to know what it will shoot. These days though too many M1A's and M14's on average with the right accuracy mods done, and a good barrel in the right stock are shooting 1moa and sub groupings. My accurized M1A with a usgi chromelined which has had the trigger done, gas system unitized, a NM op rod guide added, NM TIN piston added, chrome silicon springs and sitting in a tight usgi fiberglass reinforced at the forend with a CrazyHorse setup will do 1moa groups all day with good surplus ammo. A 4 inch moa on a M1A/M14 today is a rifle in need of tuning or it's the shooter that needs it. The Sopmod is designed to lock the rifle up tight and provide a bettter accuracy platform. I doubt highly that his rifle will get more than a 2moa on average in the Sopmod and probably much better. Out to 600 yards it should hit with no problem, but that's gonna be more on the shooter.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 2:05:57 PM EDT
H20 I got it done by RD Systems. In fact they were the ones doing the conversions all along. They allowed troy to stamp there name on it and did the work for them if I am correct.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 2:45:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:

Originally Posted By X-man12:
The M14 SOP MOD comes with a full length rail on it.

I want this thing to be able to reach out to 600 yards and at the same time since its going to be as small as the M4 I want to be able to use it for close up applications.



This one?
www.troyind.com/images/stock_system.jpg

Or something like this?
www.athenswater.com/images/MK14EO_R.JPG




That top one almost isn't an M14/M1A anymore!

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:08:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 8:21:46 PM EDT by handbook]
the original Troy SOPMOD conversion is insanely accurate for an M14. the modified gas system and Rock barrel with match ammo can hit 0.5 MOA groups@100yds. a TrijiconAccupoint, Nightforce or USO would serve you well.

the MK14 and CrazyHorse have good battlefield accuracy, but subMOA@400yds with Surplus and EOtech is a bit hard to believe though. that's better than many bolt guns the mil is using.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:18:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 7:21:37 PM EDT by BrobeeBiter]
Hello All....

I've been looking hard for a system that does both CQB and longer range well with the same package...it's tough to try and find something to fit both ends of the spectrum and my experience has been that in trying to get both bases covered, you wind up with a system that does neither well. I've tried just about everthing I can think of, including a Leupold MR/T, leupold Scout, aimpoint, EOTech, Dr.Optik, plain old irons (which are damn near perfect), and a variety of offerings from Trijicon.

My current "do-everything" rig:



-18.6 inch barreled M14S
-Smith Direct Connect Vortex
-Smith Dovetail Gas Lock front sight w/ XS tritium strip sight
-Complete replacement USGI gas system
-SAGE EBR CQB
-Surefire E2E with VLTOR E series picatinny mount
-Trijicon ACOG TA24-2 w/MM07 low profile mount
-TRW bolt
-TRW trigger group
-M1 Garand rear sight assembly w/ apperature drilled open slightly
-Eagle 3 point assault sling
-Cheekpiece is a small piece of foamy affixed with Browning Mirage Self Adhesive Wrap.

I'm confortable with this rig on 8x11 steel plates out to about 500 yards, and while it is not as fast as a pure red dot sight for CQB, it is damn close. I'd like a little more magnification as compared to the 1.5x of the TA24-2, however eye relief is the limiting factor with the SAGE and an M1A (2.5x magnification with an eye relief of about 4.25 inches would be about perfect if you are reading Trijicon!).

Lastly, Achilles is 110% right...practice practice practice, and then some more practice with whatever you wind up with is the most important thing at all.

Good luck with your build...

Brobee

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:08:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By handbook:
... the MK14 and CrazyHorse have good battlefield accuracy ...



Yep, sub-MOA is good battlefield accuracy.
I'm told it only gets better when the M14DC sound suppressor is used.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:32:07 AM EDT
What is all this crap about a M1A not accurrately hitting target at 600 yrds and 4" groups at 100 yrds. We are talking about the M1A and not the FAL right??
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:48:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 13foxtrot:
What is all this crap about a M1A not accurrately hitting target at 600 yrds and 4" groups at 100 yrds. We are talking about the M1A and not the FAL right??



Yeah no kidding . My Standard M1A had always shot 1 MOA or less with Irons and now With the Sage Stock and Flash hider I have noticed an increase in accuracy.

Nathan
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:22:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 6:34:16 AM EDT by DonD]
Show me the groups? My conclusion was taken from Guns and Weapons April addition there finds were avg of 2.0 inch at 100 yards with Match ammo. Who is going to shoot match ammon in a CBQ gun. Do the math. Show me the targets. 1/2 groups out of this rifile is bull. They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:29:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 7:36:55 AM EDT by H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted By DonD:
Show me the groups?



Show me the gun rag article you read ~ was it written by Charlie Cutshaw?

I think 4" @ 100 is the minimum acceptable for the original rack grade M14 battle rifle - it is not the norm.
Sub-MOA accuracy is pretty easy from modern 18" and 22" M14 type rifles.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:51:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 7:26:43 AM EDT by DonD]
Yes see my previous post I updated it
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:35:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:
Yes see my previos post I updated it



Yep, that article had many flaws. It was really just a showcase for add-on accessories.

With just a few simple proven national match mods just about any serviceable M14 type rifle can shoot MOA.
Modern 18 and 22 inch barrels, refined build techniques and quality ammo easily produces sub-MOA performance.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:46:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 7:48:37 AM EDT by DonD]

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:

Originally Posted By DonD:
Yes see my previos post I updated it



Yep, that article had many flaws. It was really just a showcase for add-on accessories.

With just a few simple proven national match mods just about any serviceable M14 type rifle can shoot MOA.
Modern 18 and 22 inch barrels, refined build techniques and quality ammo easily produces sub-MOA performance.




With all your talking about tis no longer a SOCOM. Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns. Even a FN A3 SPR will get you 1/2 min.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:14:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:
Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns.



Well, this is the M1 & M1A section...

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:42:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

With all your talking about tis no longer a SOCOM. Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns. Even a FN A3 SPR will get you 1/2 min.



Why the hell would someone want a bolt gun that you'd have to cock for every shot when the could have an as accurate battle rifle that will put round after round after round either in precise shots or quick conitinuos shots where that bolt gun would be left in the dust. If a semi can be as accurate as a bolt gun, why would you cut yourself short on an extremely old firearm action like a bolt gun, when you could have the capability for a high rate of fire too all in one gun. Save the bolt guns for hunting, and use the battle rifle for serious use.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:59:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By DonD:

With all your talking about tis no longer a SOCOM. Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns. Even a FN A3 SPR will get you 1/2 min.



Why the hell would someone want a bolt gun that you'd have to cock for every shot when the could have an as accurate battle rifle that will put round after round after round either in precise shots or quick conitinuos shots where that bolt gun would be left in the dust. If a semi can be as accurate as a bolt gun, why would you cut yourself short on an extremely old firearm action like a bolt gun, when you could have the capability for a high rate of fire too all in one gun. Save the bolt guns for hunting, and use the battle rifle for serious use.



This is the M1 and M1A forum. I will keep my comments confined to them. Lets take a look at your comments. Battle rifle does not carry with it the concept of National Match accuracy. Dependability
is essential for a battle rifle. The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle. Trying to make it one requires a change to such a great extent it is no longer a SOCOM. Go over to the Battlerifle forum and read. Besides extractor issues the other complaint on the SOCOM I found was in Accuracy expectation. I have owned National Match grade M1a`s. Even for you to suggest 1/2 min of angle in the SOCOM is an active imagination at best and at worst, bull.

P.S. Why would anyone want a more accurate rifle for less money, LOL, I don`t think you have a clue do you? Serious use M24, M40. FN A3, Sako TRG 22, 42.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 1:06:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 1:10:21 PM EDT by H2O_MAN]
What we have here - is a failure...


Originally Posted By DonD: They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.


Originally Posted By DonD: The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle.



X-man12 asked about the Troy SOPMOD. We aren't talking about the SOCOM or SOCOM II featured in the magazine.

All of the rifles pictured in this thread have 18+ inches of barrel. The SOCOM has 16".
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:35:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
What we have here - is a failure...


Originally Posted By DonD: They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.


Originally Posted By DonD: The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle.



X-man12 asked about the Troy SOPMOD. We aren't talking about the SOCOM or SOCOM II featured in the magazine.

All of the rifles pictured in this thread have 18+ inches of barrel. The SOCOM has 16".



The SOPMODs were being made with Mike Rock barrels, known to be one of the best barrels made.

Nathan
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:47:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By DonD:

With all your talking about tis no longer a SOCOM. Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns. Even a FN A3 SPR will get you 1/2 min.



Why the hell would someone want a bolt gun that you'd have to cock for every shot when the could have an as accurate battle rifle that will put round after round after round either in precise shots or quick conitinuos shots where that bolt gun would be left in the dust. If a semi can be as accurate as a bolt gun, why would you cut yourself short on an extremely old firearm action like a bolt gun, when you could have the capability for a high rate of fire too all in one gun. Save the bolt guns for hunting, and use the battle rifle for serious use.



An M1A could never Touch a GAP Rifle, thats where I disagree with you. Three of the main reasons why the US military uses a bolt rifle is:

1: More stealth, shell doesnt eject and give away position.

2: One Shot One Kill, not suppressive fire

3: Highly tuned bolt rifles can be alot more accurate (although the AR15 Platform with tuning can be made very accurate also).

Now Semi-Auto Sniper rifles are important also In a Squad Support role/urban terrain and such. But for a two man sniper Team in a place like Trashcanistan, I believe the Bolt Rifle is the better Rifle for "reaching out and touching someone". It all depends on the mission really.

Nathan



Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:50:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
What we have here - is a failure...


Originally Posted By DonD: They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.


Originally Posted By DonD: The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle.



X-man12 asked about the Troy SOPMOD. We aren't talking about the SOCOM or SOCOM II featured in the magazine.

All of the rifles pictured in this thread have 18+ inches of barrel. The SOCOM has 16".



Your right my bad. I was wrong. The SOPMOD is 18. Sorry.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:04:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
What we have here - is a failure...


Originally Posted By DonD: They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.


Originally Posted By DonD: The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle.



X-man12 asked about the Troy SOPMOD. We aren't talking about the SOCOM or SOCOM II featured in the magazine.

All of the rifles pictured in this thread have 18+ inches of barrel. The SOCOM has 16".



Your right my bad. I was wrong. The SOPMOD is 18. Sorry.



DonD, its alright. The Socom and Rock Are two different creatures... and I do feel the Rock was over priced ( I would rather buy a GAP rifle or TRG 22 or 42 for the price they were charging) My Current M1A has:

a National Match Trigger
Free-Floated Sage Stock
A Vortex FH (they are proven to increase accuracy)
And Has a 18in NM Non-Chrome Lined Barrel

Those upgrades alone would make it a 1 MOA - .75 MOA Rifle. Handloads could push the accuracy even more (I'm Experimenting and going to load some ammo using .308 Win. Cases, IMR Powder and Sierra Match king 168 grainers-Moly Coated). When I get a new scope for her, I'll make sure to do a range report for you.

Nathan



Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:18:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:

Originally Posted By X-man12:
Here is the link to the model I am referring to:

SOPMOD



The rifle pictured is the DISCONTINUED Rock SOPMOD M-14 conversion.

You can run any scope you choose on the full legth rail found on the SOPMOD rifle and CBR stock.

I like the EOTech and have shot sub MOA groups @ 400 yards with surplus
ammo from my EOTech equipped MK14 in a SAGE EBR stock pictured below.
www.athenswater.com/images/MK14EO_R.JPG
The 1 MOA center dot is very precise and the 65 MOA ring is great for fast close-in work.

Hitting targets @ 600 yards should not be a problem - I will use my old M8 Scout scope for long range shots.

HTH ~




I admitted I was thinking about the wrong rifle now before I leave the thread I would still like to see the sub MOA groups shot at 400 yards with surplus ammo with an EOTECH equiped MK14 in a SAGE EBR.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:18:22 PM EDT

Show me the groups? My conclusion was taken from Guns and Weapons April addition there finds were avg of 2.0 inch at 100 yards with Match ammo. Who is going to shoot match ammon in a CBQ gun. Do the math. Show me the targets. 1/2 groups out of this rifile is bull. They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.



I seen it on TV, its just gotta be true.....
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:34:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
What we have here - is a failure...


Originally Posted By DonD: They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.


Originally Posted By DonD: The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle.



X-man12 asked about the Troy SOPMOD. We aren't talking about the SOCOM or SOCOM II featured in the magazine.

All of the rifles pictured in this thread have 18+ inches of barrel. The SOCOM has 16".



Your right my bad. I was wrong. The SOPMOD is 18. Sorry.



The SOPMOD does have a 16" Stainless Steel Sniper Grade 1/11.27 5R twist Mike Rock barrel, but as BushmasterGuy pointed out "The Socom and Rock Are two different creatures..." Very different.

Hey BushmasterGuy - your rifle sounds a bit like mine, post a pic when you get the chance.
Here are the build specifications for my U.S.N. MK14 Mod O SEI conversion.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:52:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
What we have here - is a failure...


Originally Posted By DonD: They had to change the stock on the SOCOM II to shoot it this accurately.


Originally Posted By DonD: The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle.



X-man12 asked about the Troy SOPMOD. We aren't talking about the SOCOM or SOCOM II featured in the magazine.

All of the rifles pictured in this thread have 18+ inches of barrel. The SOCOM has 16".



Your right my bad. I was wrong. The SOPMOD is 18. Sorry.



The SOPMOD does have a 16" Stainless Steel Sniper Grade 1/11.27 5R twist Mike Rock barrel, but as BushmasterGuy pointed out "The Socom and Rock Are two different creatures..." Very different.

Hey BushmasterGuy - your rifle sounds a bit like mine, post a pic when you get the chance.
Here are the build specifications for my U.S.N. MK14 Mod O SEI conversion.




Yes, I have seen your Build and your webpage many times over. I remember wanting a Sage stock when No one even had a clue what it was (it also took Sage literally years to update their webpage). After finally getting my M1A upgraded with one (July 05) I realized that mine has a full length EBR fore-end, but only a with shorter chop mod lower rail. Seems like Fulton Slipped that on . Also, mine has strengthend stock adjustment/pistol area, where it has less welds like a chop mod but like I said its still a full length fore-end. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Nathan
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:33:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 5:50:44 PM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By DonD:

With all your talking about tis no longer a SOCOM. Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns. Even a FN A3 SPR will get you 1/2 min.



Why the hell would someone want a bolt gun that you'd have to cock for every shot when the could have an as accurate battle rifle that will put round after round after round either in precise shots or quick conitinuos shots where that bolt gun would be left in the dust. If a semi can be as accurate as a bolt gun, why would you cut yourself short on an extremely old firearm action like a bolt gun, when you could have the capability for a high rate of fire too all in one gun. Save the bolt guns for hunting, and use the battle rifle for serious use.hr


This is the M1 and M1A forum. I will keep my comments confined to them. Lets take a look at your comments. Battle rifle does not carry with it the concept of National Match accuracy. Dependability
is essential for a battle rifle. The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle. Trying to make it one requires a change to such a great extent it is no longer a SOCOM. Go over to the Battlerifle forum and read. Besides extractor issues the other complaint on the SOCOM I found was in Accuracy expectation. I have owned National Match grade M1a`s. Even for you to suggest 1/2 min of angle in the SOCOM is an active imagination at best and at worst, bull.

P.S. Why would anyone want a more accurate rifle for less money, LOL, I don`t think you have a clue do you? Serious use M24, M40. FN A3, Sako TRG 22, 42.



Well isn't that special of you to think that if you accurize a Socom like any other M1A it somehow doesn't make it a Socom anymore. It's still a Socom, just tuned to be more accurate. Why the hell wouldn't you want to do that if you could? But I wasn't necessarily talking about just a Socom in that post since you've seemingly thought I was I'll expand.
What I was talking about was a tuned semiautomatic battle rifle compared to a just boltgun in capability.
With similar accuracy in a bolt action and a semiauto, why would you want the bolt action and it's lessened rate of fire capability compared to the semi if you can have it. This is also not discussing if either rifle had any functioning problems since you wanted to put that in there, I was talking about capability of fire and with the understanding that both rifles function fine. Since bolt actions can have problems too, just as a semi can, that wasn't the point, but if I hurt your sensitive feelings on a bolt action being the only rifle for long range shooting and high levels of accuracy, ............well what do I care since you wanted to be an asshole about it.


I'd say if anyone doesn't have a clue it would be you or your just full of shit. Probably both.

Now as for price, that's a seperate issue at the same time, so lets get back on point. I'll make it clear since you got wrong. Regardless of any price difference and just talking of capabilty with two rifles of similar accuracy which I thought we were, the as accurate semiautomatic battle rifle is capable of much more than the slower single shot per cock of the bolt action at any range.
If you want to just look at accuracy and the money you've spent as the most important point and lump it all together as what's better, than that's your choice. You can take the bolt action and rotate on it, I'd take the M1A anyday.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:17:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 12:20:28 AM EDT by handbook]
sheesh, the thread went WAY off course..

X-man12 where are you located in CA? Contact me if you want to try out some scopes.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:01:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By DonD:

With all your talking about tis no longer a SOCOM. Might as well put the money into one of many custom bolt guns. Even a FN A3 SPR will get you 1/2 min.



Why the hell would someone want a bolt gun that you'd have to cock for every shot when the could have an as accurate battle rifle that will put round after round after round either in precise shots or quick conitinuos shots where that bolt gun would be left in the dust. If a semi can be as accurate as a bolt gun, why would you cut yourself short on an extremely old firearm action like a bolt gun, when you could have the capability for a high rate of fire too all in one gun. Save the bolt guns for hunting, and use the battle rifle for serious use.



This is the M1 and M1A forum. I will keep my comments confined to them. Lets take a look at your comments. Battle rifle does not carry with it the concept of National Match accuracy. Dependability
is essential for a battle rifle. The SOCOM is not a National Match rifle. Trying to make it one requires a change to such a great extent it is no longer a SOCOM. Go over to the Battlerifle forum and read. Besides extractor issues the other complaint on the SOCOM I found was in Accuracy expectation. I have owned National Match grade M1a`s. Even for you to suggest 1/2 min of angle in the SOCOM is an active imagination at best and at worst, bull.

P.S. Why would anyone want a more accurate rifle for less money, LOL, I don`t think you have a clue do you? Serious use M24, M40. FN A3, Sako TRG 22, 42.



Well isn't that special of you to think that if you accurize a Socom like any other M1A it somehow doesn't make it a Socom anymore. It's still a Socom, just tuned to be more accurate. Why the hell wouldn't you want to do that if you could? But I wasn't necessarily talking about just a Socom in that post since you've seemingly thought I was I'll expand.
What I was talking about was a tuned semiautomatic battle rifle compared to a just boltgun in capability.
With similar accuracy in a bolt action and a semiauto, why would you want the bolt action and it's lessened rate of fire capability compared to the semi if you can have it. This is also not discussing if either rifle had any functioning problems since you wanted to put that in there, I was talking about capability of fire and with the understanding that both rifles function fine. Since bolt actions can have problems too, just as a semi can, that wasn't the point, but if I hurt your sensitive feelings on a bolt action being the only rifle for long range shooting and high levels of accuracy, ............well what do I care since you wanted to be an asshole about it.


I'd say if anyone doesn't have a clue it would be you or your just full of shit. Probably both.

Now as for price, that's a seperate issue at the same time, so lets get back on point. I'll make it clear since you got wrong. Regardless of any price difference and just talking of capabilty with two rifles of similar accuracy which I thought we were, the as accurate semiautomatic battle rifle is capable of much more than the slower single shot per cock of the bolt action at any range.
If you want to just look at accuracy and the money you've spent as the most important point and lump it all together as what's better, than that's your choice. You can take the bolt action and rotate on it, I'd take the M1A anyday.



To reason with someone, both parties have to be reasonable. To continue to try to discuss this with you has no obvious purpose. "I`ll make it clear since you got wrong" How could I argue with sentence structure like that? However, the best one was "you can take your bolt action and rotate on it" careful your SOCOM has a bolt also and it rotates you may screw yourself.

I already said I was sorry as this is not a SOCOM thread. I only posted because a question was ask about a scope and I have one inbound an IOR for on a 6.8 upper. I use an EOTECH on my CBQ weapon with backup sights. My precision AR`s have variable scopes.

My bases for discussion was the article in Guns and Weapons. This has gone south and I had not intended to post anymore other then to ask H20-Man to post those sub MOA groups shot at 400 yards with surplus ammo with an EOTECH equiped MK14 in a SAGE EBR.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:27:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 5:30:31 AM EDT by H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted By DonD:This has gone south and I had not intended to post anymore other then to ask H20-Man to post those sub MOA groups shot at 400 yards with surplus ammo with an EOTECH equiped MK14 in a SAGE EBR.


I did not save the target - I don't save any rifle targets, but I will return to Gunsite Hills and do it again as soon as my MK14 MOUT rifle arrives from SEI.
I want to make one trip for a side-by-side range session with sound suppressor attached. I will submit a full range report with pictures.

This discussion did go in many directions, but all-in-all it has been a good one.

Post a picture of your SOPMOD when you can.
Thanks ~
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:33:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:

Originally Posted By DonD:This has gone south and I had not intended to post anymore other then to ask H20-Man to post those sub MOA groups shot at 400 yards with surplus ammo with an EOTECH equiped MK14 in a SAGE EBR.


I did not save the target - I don't save any rifle targets, but I will return to Gunsite Hills and do it again as soon as my MK14 MOUT rifle arrives from SEI.
I want to make one trip for a side-by-side range session with sound suppressor attached. I will submit a full range report with pictures.

This discussion did go in many directions, but all-in-all it has been a good one.

Post a picture of your SOPMOD when you can.
Thanks ~



Thank you for being civil about it, I did appreciate it. I envy you going to Gunsite I wish my health was such I could go.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:03:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

To reason with someone, both parties have to be reasonable. To continue to try to discuss this with you has no obvious purpose. "I`ll make it clear since you got wrong" How could I argue with sentence structure like that? However, the best one was "you can take your bolt action and rotate on it" careful your SOCOM has a bolt also and it rotates you may screw yourself.his
My bases for discussion was the article in Guns and Weapons. This has gone south and I had not intended to post anymore other then to ask H20-Man to post those sub MOA groups shot at 400 yards with surplus ammo with an EOTECH equiped MK14 in a SAGE EBR.



I'm sorry actually that it did get uncivil and apologize. I shouldn't have gotten pissed at something like that and replyed as such, but it just seemed like an obvious point that a bolt action will never have the same capability of as quick followup shots as a semiautomatic battle rifle and the main reason there still used today is either by people that just like them or for there higher level of accuracy. Since that higher level of accuracy difference has been lessened over the years there is as great a reason to use a older and slower rifle system as the bolt action and this is why also you see the military using more accurized semiautomatic rifles than just the bolt action, as they know it's better for different situation besides just a single shot long range shot to have that semiautomatic action there too, to lay down more fire quicker if needed.
I do miss words sometimes in my typing as I move to new thoughts much faster than I type. I do try to go back and edit for clarity, completeness and spelling, but I'm not perfect and do miss things sometimes. Oh well, that's the one of the skills I don't have as I'm not a desk jocky.have
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:53:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By DonD:

To reason with someone, both parties have to be reasonable. To continue to try to discuss this with you has no obvious purpose. "I`ll make it clear since you got wrong" How could I argue with sentence structure like that? However, the best one was "you can take your bolt action and rotate on it" careful your SOCOM has a bolt also and it rotates you may screw yourself.

I already said I was sorry as this is not a SOCOM thread. I only posted because a question was ask about a scope and I have one inbound an IOR for on a 6.8 upper. I use an EOTECH on my CBQ weapon with backup sights. My precision AR`s have variable scopes.

My bases for discussion was the article in Guns and Weapons. This has gone south and I had not intended to post anymore other then to ask H20-Man to post those sub MOA groups shot at 400 yards with surplus ammo with an EOTECH equiped MK14 in a SAGE EBR.



I'm sorry actually that it did get uncivil and apologize. I shouldn't have gotten pissed at something like that and replyed as such, but it just seemed like an obvious point that a bolt action will never have the same capability of as quick followup shots as a semiautomatic battle rifle and the main reason there still used today is either by people that just like them or for there higher level of accuracy. Since that higher level of accuracy difference has been lessened over the years there is as great a reason to use a older and slower rifle system as the bolt action and this is why also you see the military using more accurized semiautomatic rifles than just the bolt action, as they know it's better for different situation besides just a single shot long range shot to have that semiautomatic action there too, to lay down more fire quicker if needed.
I do miss words sometimes in my typing as I move to new thoughts much faster than I type. I do try to go back and edit for clarity, completeness and spelling, but I'm not perfect and do miss things sometimes. Oh well, that's the one of the skills I don't have as I'm not a desk jocky.

As I don't have a Socom and don't want one, I'll just rotate on my CrazyHorse M1A as it's a better setup capable of better rotation also than the Socom.



Nice reply enjoy your M1A.
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