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Posted: 2/21/2006 6:18:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 10:27:02 AM EDT by 1SGA]
I am almost too embarrassed to post this - but I fell into a deal that has left me stupified...
A local veterans club decided to dump their "parade" rifles - hassles about liability, security etc.
They were offered to a local collector - he went on vacation and never called them back - a buddy who was involved in the club called me and asked if I would be interested. I replied possibly depending on the price.... you can guess what my answer was....

7 M1 Garands as follows:
1 H&R SN 4,6mil ...... 1953
1 SA SN 1,7mil ...... June '43
1 SA SN 3,6mil ...... July '45
1 SA SN 2,7mil ...... April '44
1 SA SN 3,3mil ...... Dec '44
1 SA SN 566k...... March '42
1 SA SN 785,k ...... Aug '42

5 M-1903's
1 SA SN 836k..... 1918
1 RIA SN 291k..... 1918
1 RA SN 3,mil ..... 1941
1 SA SN 1,2mil..... 1927
1 RIA SN 93,k ..... 1907

The deal is I select the best of each lot - they want 2 M-1's and 2 M-1903's back for the color guard. I get to keep 5 M-1's and 3 M1903's........drum roll please.........

$800

I am still pulling my drawers out of my ass....

Any ideas on which ones to keep???
I am very up on M1'a as I already collect them - need some juju on the '03's.

They are going to need a little work and probably all need new barrels as they fired beacoup blanks through them. I am trying to get the original paperwork to find out when they got them - it appears to have been in the 1960's for the M1's and the 1950's for the '03's.


Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:24:27 PM EDT
I could be wrong, but I thought a lot of these rifles were actually "on-loan" to veteran's groups from the gov....if that is the case they may not really be theirs to sell. Sure would suck to by them only to find out you had to give them back.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:28:19 PM EDT
You lucky mother F***er.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:31:49 PM EDT
I will pay you 400 for one of those nicer 03a3s.....
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:50:41 PM EDT
MSG,
I thought the same thing and it was researched and run through a very good contact in the BATF - good to go - having to give them back would have been torture.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:53:10 PM EDT
1IV - all the '03 are just that - straight '03's - no A3's in the bunch. (Yes the 1941 Remmington mrf'd rifle is a straight '03)

1SGA
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:31:36 PM EDT
are the barrel dates correct??? and are any of the barrels salvagable???


can you post pics?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:41:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 8:43:33 PM EDT by tangeant]
The BATFE has nothing to do with whether they are " OK " to sell or not until the Army reports them stolen.

Contact the CMP and they can put you in touch with the gal running the Loaner ( VFW etc. ) rifle program for the Army and have the numbers run to see if they are still on the roles as Army property.

My 2 cents is the people offering the rifles to you are ignorant of the rules or true ownership of the rifles... or are just crooked.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:02:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tangeant:
The BATFE has nothing to do with whether they are " OK " to sell or not .



+1 on that.

This part is worth extra checking. Tangeant is right on about the CMP Anniston being able to help.

It may depend on what type of veterans club it is and how they came to the rifles. Whether or not they ( the organization ) can own firearms depends on how they are chartered and incorporated. If it is a VFW it is likeley they are on long term loan and it is possible that they are making an error thinking that they are the clubs to sell.

They may be free and clear if they were donated by members.

I hope it turns out to be a great deal.

As far as which ones to buy??
For M1's get the H&R and the low numbered SA's first.

03's?? Tough call..... pass on the RIA SN 93,XXX ..... 1907. Low #. and pick the best of the rest


JR
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:15:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tangeant:
The BATFE has nothing to do with whether they are " OK " to sell or not until the Army reports them stolen.

Contact the CMP and they can put you in touch with the gal running the Loaner ( VFW etc. ) rifle program for the Army and have the numbers run to see if they are still on the roles as Army property.

My 2 cents is the people offering the rifles to you are ignorant of the rules or true ownership of the rifles... or are just crooked.




+1.

I would find out now as opposed to possibly later.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:20:14 AM EDT
I hate you.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:59:36 AM EDT
+2 on the "loaners". Last year I was asked to look over the local Vet group's new gaggle of M1s and they did not buy them. They were loaned to them but I don't remember who the loaning group was. It may have been the headquarter organization. They are responsible for them and I strongly believe that they have to be turned back to the CMP or whomever the lending organization was. I don't believe that they can sell them otherwise they could just part them out to their local members or shooting organizations. So, before you write the check, better be safe than sorry. Someone would come knocking at your door a few months from now. I also agree that BATFE is not involved with the lend.

Finally, it was my understanding that the barrels have to be made "unshootable" with a blockage. However, the ones I examined were clear (but very dirty to be sure). The Vet who was with me was quite surprised when I told him that they could run live rounds through them. He just assumed the barrels were pinned or something along those lines. Sheesh!

Please, however, let us know. It would be the all-time deal of this century!
Rome
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:33:27 AM EDT
damn, I never get deals like that


you ar eone lucky sumbitch
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:54:13 AM EDT
As has already been said numerous times, you'd better find out from the ARMY whether or not those rifles are still being accounted for. My guess is they are. It may take awhile to find out, but that would be better than having to give them back sooner or later. It would most likely be later but....
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:01:20 PM EDT
Research has led me all of the applicable regulations - i.e.
- The original program is a function of the U.S. TACOM Life Cycle Management Command's Static Display and Ceremonial Rifle Section.
- AR 700-131 Loan and Lease of Army Material, Chap 4 Recognized Veterans Organizations
- Title 10 US Code Section 4683 Loan of Obsolete or Condemed Rifles to Recognized Veterans Groups for Ceremonial Purposes
- The only rifles available within the proghram are M1's.

I then requested and have received certification (as well as having it written into the sales contract) as to the source of the rifles - all were from prior members private donations. None were acquired through the above programs. The entire matter was put before the membership for a vote (as to sell them or retain them or rebuild them)
The President / Commander has signed the certification / authorization to sell.

So... long story short - all should be in order. I have yet to do detailed inspections on them, and will in the next few days. Like I said earlier - probably all the barrels will need to be replaced due to years of use with blanks - even as parts, the deal was one I couldn't turn away from.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:10:30 PM EDT
I am glad you got these instead of a commercial FFL. I hate the business practices of most of those guys. They would have immediately turned around and tried to sell them at $900-$1000.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:29:43 PM EDT
Well if it's on the up and up, congrats! I would love to get that many rifles, especially M1's, for $800. Whale of deal you got there.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:39:01 PM EDT
Still trying to make heads or tales out of the 03's - is in which ones to keep. Looks like a lot of reading is in store.....
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:45:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 1:48:25 PM EDT by Dracster]
Depending on bbl dates and condition, the Remington 03 and 1927 SA 03 could be really interesting. Hell, they all are.

The SA is possibly an RIA reciever that was transferred to SA and serialized and finished there. The proof markings on the bottom of the reciever will tell.

Remington, for their 03s used the old RIA machinery. So, the early RA 03s are of the same fit and finish of the late RIA 03s.

Untouched WW1 rifles are hard to come by, so the 2 1918 rifles, if original, are really nice. Same with the 1907 RIA. Heck, an 07 RIA bbl alone would recoup the cost of the ALL the rest of the rifles.


ETA- Any help I can give with respect to the 03s, feel free to ask.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:55:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dracster:
Depending on bbl dates and condition, the Remington 03 and 1927 SA 03 could be really interesting. Hell, they all are.

The SA is possibly an RIA reciever that was transferred to SA and serialized and finished there. The proof markings on the bottom of the reciever will tell.

Remington, for their 03s used the old RIA machinery. So, the early RA 03s are of the same fit and finish of the late RIA 03s.

Untouched WW1 rifles are hard to come by, so the 2 1918 rifles, if original, are really nice. Same with the 1907 RIA. Heck, an 07 RIA bbl alone would recoup the cost of the ALL the rest of the rifles.

ETA- Any help I can give with respect to the 03s, feel free to ask



Dracster,
Much appreciated - I was going to barricade myself in the shop with my Brophy book - I am not an authority on the 03' - so any help would be welcome.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:01:24 PM EDT
Outstanding on the documentation and ability for them to be sold. Congrats! Have some fun!

Rome
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:05:43 PM EDT



That is just not right!



Your God smiles upon you!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:56:19 PM EDT
good job sealing the deal......
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:14:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 4:17:26 PM EDT by canes7]
Wow... right place right time... Keep the earlier '03s... They are still good to shoot (above the req. S/N range). I would think the earlier ones have more value.

Edited to correct that the 1907 RIA is below the perscribed S/N range for safe firing. For more info go to:

Reciever failures

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:50:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 4:50:38 PM EDT by 1SGA]
Canes7,
All too familiar with 03's that want to impersonate a grenade. A shooting aquaintence had an 03' that went to pieces so to speak. He was shooting in a lead / cast bullet offhand league and his grenaded on him - the front recvr ring w/ bbl landed 30 ft in front - the middle section was shattered, parts of which were never recovered. A chunk of the rcvr went through his right eye, lodging in the back of the eye socket. The surgeon told him that if the 1/4 x 1/2" piece of steel had gone another 1/16 of an inch it would have penetrated in to his brain causing at least a significant brain injury or worse.
If I do keep the low #'d 03's, it will be for collection / historical purposes.

Great article by the way - I have read Hatchers book as well as Brophy's.

1SGA
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 6:05:11 PM EDT
On the 03s, what are the bbl dates? What kinds of stocks do they have?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:56:12 AM EDT
You lucky duck! Of course, I'd rather replace duck with something else, but you get the picture. Why don't I ever get any deals like that!?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:49:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 8:55:33 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:52:50 PM EDT
O how green was my envy!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:45:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 10:33:15 AM EDT by 1SGA]
Well's here's an update on the rifles - my enthusiasim has been severely tempered - BUT, regardless of the outcome, the price was too good to walk away from.

I have broken each rifle down and gone through them. All appear to be in fairly good mechanical shape - finish is from fair to very good on the rcvr's. Some (2) have either missing or broken rear sights. All except 1 need gas cylinder locks as they had BFA's installed.
I am in the process of doing data sheets on each. All to appear to have been rebuilt at least once - which is expected. The bores are in rough shape on some - although I would say that all could be fired safely. Headspace on all is within spec. Some of the barrels are original - as follows: (followed by stock cartouches if any)

MFR.........SN................MFR DATE......BBL MARK............STOCK MARK
1 H&R.....SN 4,6mil ...... 1953...............HRA 10-53..........RA-P
1 SA ......SN 1,7mil ...... June '43..........S-S-A-6-43
1 SA...... SN 3,6mil ...... July '45...........SA 6-51
1 SA...... SN 2,7mil ...... April '44..........SA 3-51
1 SA...... SN 3,3mil ...... Dec '44...........SA 7-51..............SA over S
1 SA...... SN 566k......... March '42.......SA 12-54
1 SA...... SN 785,k ....... Aug '42...........SA 4-45

Now for the burst bubble part - all of the M-1's have had the bbls WELDED to the recvr's - there is a 3/16 bead at 12 o'clock under the rear hand guard. The bead is about 1/2" long. It is crude - obviously done by an amatuer. On all the rcvr's there is a small amount of encroachment into the recvr. My thinking is that I can set the stripped bbl'd action in the lathe and w/ a 4 jaw chuck, indicate the weld about .005 - .010" high and remove the weld with a carbide tool.
I was heart broken to see this.


M-1903's
These appear to be in better shape - especially the bores. Most of the recvr's are very black probably indicating a repark. A few are missing the stacking swivel and one a floor plate.
These need very little if any work.

1 SA .....SN 836k..... 1918......SA 3-18.....RA-P
1 RIA ...SN 291k..... 1918.......SA 1-42.....RA-P
1 RA .....SN 3,mil ..... 1941......SA 8-42.....RA-P
1 SA .....SN 1,2mil.... 1927......SA 7-42
1 RIA ...SN 93,k ...... 1907......SA 9-42.....RA-P (Stock broken & repaired)

All the stocks are straight stocks.

So, right now, I am contemplating courses of action. (M1's)
1. Part them out and sell the rcvr's as a shooter / project build
2. Repair what is need - replace the bbls as needed / remove the welds
3. Do complete restoration / rebuild (mechanical - not 100% mfr correct)
4. Dump them as project guns.

Thoughts ??

1SGA

(Final note - it has been thoroughly investigated as to the source of the rifles and they did not come from the gummint. All were from private donations or members, now deceased.)
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 7:35:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 7:39:12 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:47:14 AM EDT
What is the purpose of welding the barrels to the rcvrs? Have you seen that before?

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:25:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 10:31:51 AM EDT by 1SGA]
raf,
I agree - and based on my experience in welding and as an A machinist, the removal isn't an issue. The depth of the weld into the rcvr is minimal - maybe .030 - some of the welds appear to be done with insuffieient amperage and may just break off. Only one recvr shows any indication of any heat at all and it is very very small. Definitely done by an amatuer. The only use I can see in the bbls is for the WWII dated ones as "correct" for a restorations.
If I do sell any it will be with full disclosure - I would never do that to anyone.

As for the purpose - one of my theories was that the bbls were modified for use with only blanks - i.e. the bores were partially blocked or the gas ports opened. This combined with the welding was an attempt to render them incapable of firing service ammuntion, and the weld prevented the possibility to convert them back to a functioning arm. I did gauge the ports - all standard sizes. The bores are all clear and the the rifling is intact - the bores are dark and some look a bit rough, but I am betting they may clean up a bit with JB / Rem Clean.
I can't come up with any other reason as to why they were welded. Puzzling and dissapointing.

1SGA

eta - Years and years ago I shot an IHC that had been cut in half and rewelded - never had an issue with it - it was in NM configuration and shot dead on / master class scores (solid 470's) The steel in an M1 (8620) is a triple alloy steel and is outstanding in strength. I also shot a Hahn Machine TRW M-14 reweld as a LR gun (1000yd) at Quantico - consistent 190's with it - same steel - great stuff.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:11:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 2:15:17 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:27:49 PM EDT
raf,
Are you saying that there is a possibility of the rcvr's being rewelds? I have gone over them with a fine tooth comb and they are absolutely intact - but good point though.
With the rear handguard in place, 5 of the 7 have no indication of the weld - 1 has a slight encroachment, and 1 has a spot where the knucke head who welded it hit it with the stick. ugh

I am seriously leaning towards parting them all out as there are some primo parts:
dash 2 SA Bolts,
dash 6 SA Op Rods
WRA Op rod
IHC Oprod
Win Gas Cylinder
2 sets of the type II lock bar sights
Lots of early trigger housings / hammers etc
etc
Some of the stocks appear to be in good shape as well.

Probably refurbish the revcr's - i.e. clean up the front ring to original dimension and sell 'em as JCG match project rcvrs or something.

Anyone got any other idea's?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:39:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 2:46:35 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:25:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By 1SGA:
raf,
Are you saying that there is a possibility of the rcvr's being rewelds? I have gone over them with a fine tooth comb and they are absolutely intact - but good point though.



No. What I said was the ONE example of a welded-barrel M1 was a re-mill, not a re-welded receiver. The rifle I'm talking about had the bolt tack-welded to the receiver. OK for the de-mill specs long ago, but obviously re-millable. The new specs on de-milling are much more stringent, and irreversible, IMHO. Suggest you closely examine spots that an novice de-miller would have "hit" in demilling the rifle. Inspect for repairs/refinishing. NOT saying this has been done to your rifles, but, based on my limited experience, can't hurt to look.


With the rear handguard in place, 5 of the 7 have no indication of the weld - 1 has a slight encroachment, and 1 has a spot where the knucke head who welded it hit it with the stick. ugh

I am seriously leaning towards parting them all out as there are some primo parts:
dash 2 SA Bolts,
dash 6 SA Op Rods
WRA Op rod
IHC Oprod
Win Gas Cylinder
2 sets of the type II lock bar sights
Lots of early trigger housings / hammers etc
etc
Some of the stocks appear to be in good shape as well.

Probably refurbish the revcr's - i.e. clean up the front ring to original dimension and sell 'em as JCG match project rcvrs or something.

Anyone got any other idea's?



I think you are on the right track, since the barrels are trash unless for a wall-hanger.

I hate to say it, but the barrels and receivers are problematic. Some jackass in the future will try to shoot a wall hanger. Without a release in your hand, I'd hate to see this come back to bite you. Yeah, call me paranoid...



I know someone who may be interested in the barreled receivers or complete m1s for use with reenactor groups...
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:08:13 AM EDT
cduarte,
Let me know. Right now I am doing detailed Data Sheets on all the M1's and finding a treasure trove of parts. A fair amount of Win parts as well as a lot of early SA stuff. The parts themselves appear to be in nearly new condition.

1SGA
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:55:35 PM EDT
Sounds like you need to buy some CMP receivers "less wood" and build some mixmasters.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:25:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 5:30:24 PM EDT by gastrap]
M1s that were loaned to VFWs and other orginazatons by the Army are commonly found with the barrels crudely welded to the receivers. There are many opinions as to why. It did not render them useless, but as stated above, they would NOT be safe to fire due to heat treat loss. Still a bargain in parts at $800! Make sure the vets dont point you out if the Army calls for the rifles!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 3:59:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gastrap:
M1s that were loaned to VFWs and other orginazatons by the Army are commonly found with the barrels crudely welded to the receivers. There are many opinions as to why. It did not render them useless, but as stated above, they would NOT be safe to fire due to heat treat loss. Still a bargain in parts at $800! Make sure the vets dont point you out if the Army calls for the rifles!



Yep, most likely welded barrels are loaners and still belong to the US Army.
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