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Posted: 2/4/2006 11:48:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 11:51:57 AM EDT by Aahhyes68]




Photobucket Album


I've been eyeballing these two M1 Garands and I just bit the bullet and bought them.

Please take a look at the pictures and tell me what you think.

I paid 400.00 for the Winchester and 300 for the Springfield. Did I do OK Price-wise ???

(Pics of the Springfield coming when the camera recharges )
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:18:29 PM EDT
You did good on the price, even if you have to replace a few parts.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:50:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 3:32:16 PM EDT by Aahhyes68]




Springfield M1 Garand


OK, here is the Springfield with the import stamp.


Dano, what parts need to be replaced ??

Is there something I should or have checked before I shoot these baby's ???


ETA: Refinished Stock Pics Here !
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:00:57 PM EDT
You want to sell that Winchester?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:04:58 PM EDT
You got a great deal.

You need to make your images public, your links ask for a log in.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:39:21 PM EDT
You did well. The lockbar sights on the WRA are worth almost half of what you paid for the rifle.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:39:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pighelmet:
The lockbar sights on the WRA are worth almost half of what you paid for the rifle.



+1


You got a smokin deal.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:45:47 PM EDT
cripes! you got a BURNING deal!! where'd you get em?

John
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:55:28 PM EDT
Ya got robbed.

I'll give ya $400 for the Winchester to help you out.

IM me.

jj
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:11:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 3:14:49 PM EDT by Aahhyes68]

Can you guys open the photobucket link ??? I think I have it fixed...


I stripped the rifles and took pics of all the stampings. They are in the links ...

Anyone see anything interesting I should know about ?

Thanks for the help everyone ....

Steve
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:23:13 PM EDT
you did very well, but that's a very strange safety on the winchester... never seen one like that before.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:18:48 PM EDT
Excellent!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:38:46 PM EDT
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that you should go play the lottery....
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:45:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:58:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that you should go play the lottery....


+1 Buy a ticket for me too!

Also, is the sling on the Winchester backwards?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:44:11 PM EDT
Those are two beautiful rifles! And you got an outstanding deal on both of them! Congrats! Enjoy them!

Did you find these in a private collection or a dealer?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:06:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cduarte:
you did very well, but that's a very strange safety on the winchester... never seen one like that before.



Winter safety I think...looks familar. For gloved hands.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 1:56:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 1:59:28 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:07:18 AM EDT
You got a real good deal, good job, lucky man
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:28:25 AM EDT
thanks, I've seen the winter triggers before, never the safety. Pretty cool stuff indeed.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:49:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 5:51:09 AM EDT by kk7sm]
Hi,

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it appears your Winchester has a Winchester back half of the receiver and a Springfield front half of the receiver. The drawing number Win was using during that period (Oct-Nov 1942) was D28291-2 with no heat code while Springfield used a drawing number of D28291 17 with a heat lot code of S 8 C <> in February of 1943.

In some of the photos, it appears I may be able to see a weldment, but it's hard to tell.

Your Springfield looks good to go - mix of wartime production (1944 receiver) and post-war parts, consistent with an arsenal rebuilt rifle. Everything on the Springfield makes sense.

Take a close look at your Winny receiver. See if you can spot the weldment. Use a lot of light. Look for differences in the machining marks from the front to the rear and other inconsistencies. It doesn't mean it'll never work, but if it were me, I'd be real suspect of a weldment.

Cheers,

kk7sm

ETA: What you paid for both rifles is about the going rate on one rifle, so absolute worst case, you got one good rifle and a complete parts kit out of the deal - it's still a great deal.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:26:57 AM EDT
Sounds like a good deal to me.

I picked up a very early NAtional Match Garand for $300 once. Either way, you got a good deal.


Enjoy your new war horses.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:38:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 2:39:23 PM EDT by cduarte]

Originally Posted By kk7sm:
Hi,

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it appears your Winchester has a Winchester back half of the receiver and a Springfield front half of the receiver. The drawing number Win was using during that period (Oct-Nov 1942) was D28291-2 with no heat code while Springfield used a drawing number of D28291 17 with a heat lot code of S 8 C <> in February of 1943.

In some of the photos, it appears I may be able to see a weldment, but it's hard to tell.

Your Springfield looks good to go - mix of wartime production (1944 receiver) and post-war parts, consistent with an arsenal rebuilt rifle. Everything on the Springfield makes sense.

Take a close look at your Winny receiver. See if you can spot the weldment. Use a lot of light. Look for differences in the machining marks from the front to the rear and other inconsistencies. It doesn't mean it'll never work, but if it were me, I'd be real suspect of a weldment.

Cheers,

kk7sm

ETA: What you paid for both rifles is about the going rate on one rifle, so absolute worst case, you got one good rifle and a complete parts kit out of the deal - it's still a great deal.

geekbox.org/ar15/DSC08454.jpg




yeah, I'm going to have to concur, upon looking at the pics... you still got a good deal, but I wouldn't shoot the winnie with that receiver, you can get a receiver cheap from CMP and replace it, a smith shouldn't charge too much to do the swap. btw, this pic shows the reweld as well

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:23:52 PM EDT

yeah, I'm going to have to concur, upon looking at the pics... you still got a good deal, but I wouldn't shoot the winnie with that receiver, you can get a receiver cheap from CMP and replace it, a smith shouldn't charge too much to do the swap. btw, this pic shows the reweld as well


Thank you Gentlemen for having a good eye. Two questions:

1) It looks like CMP is no longer selling surpluss parts ? Please tell me I'm looking in the wrong place on their website.

2) Why are re-welds dangerous ? Were they not done by the Military Armorers with an approved procedure ?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:25:55 PM EDT
Parts no, stripped receivers, yes.

Best of all, no limit!

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:51:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aahhyes68:

yeah, I'm going to have to concur, upon looking at the pics... you still got a good deal, but I wouldn't shoot the winnie with that receiver, you can get a receiver cheap from CMP and replace it, a smith shouldn't charge too much to do the swap. btw, this pic shows the reweld as well


Thank you Gentlemen for having a good eye. Two questions:

1) It looks like CMP is no longer selling surpluss parts ? Please tell me I'm looking in the wrong place on their website.

2) Why are re-welds dangerous ? Were they not done by the Military Armorers with an approved procedure ?



the rewelds weren't done by military armorers, they were done by people in the 60s and 70s when pretty much all you could get were demilled garands, and some enterprising individuals welded them back together. The other thing to look out for on these are the barrels, some were made up from 1903 springfield barrels swaged into a garand barrel stub, again dicy from a safety perspective. for what CMP is getting for a good reciever, it's not worth it to think about shooting a reweld.

here's a faq from the fulton armory website, which is now down...

There are a lot of re-welded receivers out there, but identifying them is often difficult. Since I've done a lot of looking over the years, and seen some few of these, I'll try to summarize my experience.

To understand re-welds, you must know that most receivers destroyed by the government have been cut or torched in the rail section. Clever folks often think they can get a useable receiver by re-welding two receiver halves (from the same or different original receivers) back together.

The problems with this action are manifold. First, the M1 and M14 actions were designed to be manufactured to fairly tight tolerances. When a re-weld is assembled, there are six degrees of freedom that have to be matched perfectly between the two halves. Second, the original receivers were heat treated and case hardened, the latter operation making re-welding a technically difficult action resulting in cracks if done wrong (and generally even if done right! --ed.). Finally, assuming the welder overcame the preceding two hurdles, he'd have to re-heat treat the receiver, and re-case harden it, non-trivial operations not likely to be done well by your average shade-tree welder.

Furthermore, there were several different steels used in the production of the M1, some of which cannot be compatibly welded together, I'm told. This could be an issue if a Winchester rear receiver were matched with a Springfield front receiver (or vice versa) resulting in a "Winfield" or "Springchester" re-weld - these can be spotted by a mismatch between the drawing number on the front of the receiver, and the serial number/maker of the rifle.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:31:03 PM EDT
Those sure are some purty Garands!

To you Garand experts my hat's off to you; I cannot see a weld mark in any of the pictures, so I'll just have to take your word for it.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:35:51 PM EDT
How about a couple good close-up pictures of the rewelded area.

Was this a private party sale?

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:01:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
How about a couple good close-up pictures of the rewelded area.

Was this a private party sale?




I'll snap a few good pics tonight and I bought these from a pawn shop. "All sales are final".
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:57:49 AM EDT
Very nice!!!!!!!! I love that Winchester!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:34:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Those sure are some purty Garands!

To you Garand experts my hat's off to you; I cannot see a weld mark in any of the pictures, so I'll just have to take your word for it.



look at the rust colored area between the red lines...

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:26:43 PM EDT
Good eyes for spotting that guys. Even so, I think you got a helluva deal. Swap out that reciever and you're good to go. I believe CMP still has some Winchester recievers left .
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:41:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:10:31 PM EDT
The problem with rewelds is not the fact that it was rewelded, but that there is no sure way to tell if they were properly rewelded and then properly heat treated.


With CMP prices for a replacement receiver, it isn't worth taking a chance on that reweld.

If you replace that welded receiver, don't just throw it away.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:15:44 AM EDT
What would really concern me is the Winchester receiver in question is actually, more or less, a Winfield. The back half is Winchester. The front half is Springfield. It's hard to tell if the two parts are even, more or less, compatible steel.

Most of the parts on the Winfield appear to be Springie parts, so it might be happier with a Springfield receiver, but then, for a really fun project, it might be a hoot to pick up a Winchester receiver and then go parts hunting to make it a correct restoration.

At the rate they're asking for the Winchester receivers, I might just have to pick one up for a future project.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:04:27 PM EDT


Large Version of above pic



Large Version of above pic

This the Winnie next to the Springfield I bought....

I have no doubt that this rifle has been fired in it's re-welded configuration. After all, it needed a good cleaning when I bought it.

That being said, I am going to buy a Winnie receiver from the CMP, maybe even an extra Springfield to boot ...

I have also learned something from this as well..

Lesson to self: Do more homework before you buy


Maybe others can learn from my mistake ....
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:03:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aahhyes68:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Aahhyes68/Winchester%20M1%20Garand/DSC08532Small.jpg

Large Version of above pic

img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Aahhyes68/Winchester%20M1%20Garand/DSC08534Small.jpg

Large Version of above pic

This the Winnie next to the Springfield I bought....

I have no doubt that this rifle has been fired in it's re-welded configuration. After all, it needed a good cleaning when I bought it.

That being said, I am going to buy a Winnie receiver from the CMP, maybe even an extra Springfield to boot ...

I have also learned something from this as well..

Lesson to self: Do more homework before you buy


Maybe others can learn from my mistake ....



You didn't make a mistake at all. You still got a very good parts kit for a decent price. Added to a CMP Winnie receiver and you'll still have a very nice M1 for about going rate. And you still made a killer deal on the Springfield. I'd say you're still ahead of flush.

Now if you hadn't bragged and posted pics here...now that would have been a mistake!
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