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Posted: 1/17/2006 11:49:29 AM EDT
I just picked up a Garand and I want to try it out this weekend. I am getting setup to be able to buy bulk mil-surplus from CMP but I won’t have any by this weekend. What else can I shoot in a Garand that I can get decently priced from Walmart or local gun shops? I heard that most of the Federal and Winchester stuff from Walmart is to hot? Is this true?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:11:56 PM EDT
I doubt you can find commercial ammo that is too hot for a Garand. You will probably find Federal to be the best commercial ammo for your rifle. The Greek stuff from the CMP is supposed to be good, I haven't tried any of it yet.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:43:29 AM EDT
Cool, I just thought I read somewhere that most commercial ammo is rated at 2900 fps and the Garand likes ammo rated at 2700 fps.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:59:03 AM EDT
Federal American Eagle 150 FMJ is good, PMC 150 FMJ good, Generic Rem 150 psp load would be ok just stay away from the hot premium hunting loads in M1's.

Most ( any worth a crap that is ) gunshops should have some flavor of M2 surplus for sale.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:59:35 AM EDT
Commercial ammo will "work", but may not be healthy for your Garand.

Stick to M2Ball ammo.

The problem is the port pressure is too high in modern ammo for the Garand gas system. Oprod damage can result from using commercial ammo.

Oprods are about 100 bucks a pop right now, and going higher.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:07:22 AM EDT
I noticed that, with that damn commerical ammo, my garand was not the "smooth shooter" it is with M2, shot 2 clips and put it away...

Any slef-respecting gunstore should have some M2


Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Commercial ammo will "work", but may not be healthy for your Garand.

Stick to M2Ball ammo.

The problem is the port pressure is too high in modern ammo for the Garand gas system. Oprod damage can result from using commercial ammo.

Oprods are about 100 bucks a pop right now, and going higher.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:14:25 AM EDT
Well . . I see your from Ohio . . ..

Big toy show at the Medina County Fairgrounds this weekend. I'm sure you'll find a BUNCH of ammo there, that is if your not to far way from Medina . . . .
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:04:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 1:17:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lancew:
I doubt you can find commercial ammo that is too hot for a Garand.





First off, it has nothing to do with being too hot. It has all to do with the port pressure of the rifle. I wouldn't shoot ANY 30-06 in my garands without knowing if it was loaded to M2 ball specs. You run the risk of bending your op rod.

Buy an adjustiable gas plug and start crusing over to www.jouster.com to get the real scoop on the garand.

This issue has been beat to death so if you want more info or have qestions, IM me.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:22:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:

Originally Posted By lancew:
I doubt you can find commercial ammo that is too hot for a Garand.





First off, it has nothing to do with being too hot. It has all to do with the port pressure of the rifle. I wouldn't shoot ANY 30-06 in my garands without knowing if it was loaded to M2 ball specs. You run the risk of bending your op rod.

Buy an adjustiable gas plug and start crusing over to www.jouster.com to get the real scoop on the garand.

This issue has been beat to death so if you want more info or have qestions, IM me.



Do you think that lancew here might be the same Lance White on Jouster.com? Dude, I'm not ignorant on matters related to the M1 Garand. I have been active on the Garand board on Jouster.com for over 3 years now. While I am admittedly more of a collector than a shooter, I have not seen the "commercial ammo" topic beat to death there. I haven't seen an bent op rod before that wasn't the product of someone trying to be their own "national match armorer". I personally don't shoot commercial ammo in my Garands, I shoot either military loads (when I can find them) or reloaded military cases with H4895 powder. I have not heard of commercial ammo bending op rods before - give some references from respected Garand sources and I will gladly recant.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:11:28 AM EDT
There are a few members here who browbeat anyone for suggesting to use any commercial loading in their Garand. I, am not one of them. What tangeant said sounds good to me. Go enjoy your rifle, that's what they're for.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:41:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lancew:
Do you think that lancew here might be the same Lance White on Jouster.com? Dude, I'm not ignorant on matters related to the M1 Garand. I have been active on the Garand board on Jouster.com for over 3 years now. While I am admittedly more of a collector than a shooter, I have not seen the "commercial ammo" topic beat to death there. I haven't seen an bent op rod before that wasn't the product of someone trying to be their own "national match armorer". I personally don't shoot commercial ammo in my Garands, I shoot either military loads (when I can find them) or reloaded military cases with H4895 powder. I have not heard of commercial ammo bending op rods before - give some references from respected Garand sources and I will gladly recant.



It is however, common knowledge that the Garand needs a fairly narrow range of powders (that produce the proper power curve) in order to function reliably *over the long haul*. Off the top of my head I can't remember what the high and low powders are but IMR4895 is pretty much in the middle of these usable powders.

This whole controversy (if you will) is what got me started reloading. Some said don't use commercial, others said it's ok. I decided to err on the side of caution, so I bought a single stage press and started reloading for the Garand (now I own > 1K worth of reloading equipment and reload for most calibers I shoot!! )
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:46:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 8:47:14 AM EDT by lancew]

Originally Posted By Spiff:


It is however, common knowledge that the Garand needs a fairly narrow range of powders (that produce the proper power curve) in order to function reliably *over the long haul*. Off the top of my head I can't remember what the high and low powders are but IMR4895 is pretty much in the middle of these usable powders.

This whole controversy (if you will) is what got me started reloading. Some said don't use commercial, others said it's ok. I decided to err on the side of caution, so I bought a single stage press and started reloading for the Garand (now I own > 1K worth of reloading equipment and reload for most calibers I shoot!! )



IMR4895 is the powder used in the original M2 loading, according to any information I could find when I googled this for a buddy several months ago. Hodgdon bought IMR, but from what everyone says, the H4895 is close to, but not exactly the same as the original IMR4985. I know my reloading friend gets 1" groups with his pet loads on Lake City brass and H4895 powder using his 3.4M SA Garand that we rebarreled with a commercial barrel.

The Garand is a beefy rifle, with every critical moving component forged, machined, and properly heat treated. I baby mine, but know they are capable of taking abuse.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 12:51:58 PM EDT
I did some checking with sources that I trust, and found some interesting things out. The real danger of commercial ammo is not so much the powder, but the bullet weight. Heavier bullets in commercial hunting loads can increase chamber pressure, and consequently pressure that the operating rod sees, and as such are not recommended for the Garand. The same holds true for handloads, heavy bullets should be avoided (as well as fast burning powders). As someone previously stated, commercial ammo in the 150 grain bullet weight area should be just OK. So I was wrong, sorta.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:22:59 PM EDT
I shot PMC 150 from my Garand with no problems.

I found that the CMP Greek has more of a "kick" to it than the PMC ammo.
The PMC is more like the CMP LC ammo.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:33:40 PM EDT
See, this is the biggest reason I haven't made the 2 hour trek to the North Store to pick up a Garand. Aren't you guys worried than in 3 or 4 years, all the M2 will be bought up? What then? Are those of us who don't reload, but do enjoy 200+ shooting sessions just plain out of luck?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:35:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By agillig:
See, this is the biggest reason I haven't made the 2 hour trek to the North Store to pick up a Garand. Aren't you guys worried than in 3 or 4 years, all the M2 will be bought up? What then? Are those of us who don't reload, but do enjoy 200+ shooting sessions just plain out of luck?



I don't think it's going to run out for awhile. And if it does, Federal currently makes ammo for the cmp, maybe they'd ramp up more production or the CMP would find another vendor. I personally would just use stuff like PMC, UMC, WWB, AE, and such. Well I'd pick the most accurate out of all of them.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:18:35 PM EDT
You can't beat the CMP ammo availablity. It doesn't take forever to get it, you'll have it within 7-10 days. I don't reload rifle or pistol, I did a limited amount a very long time ago, but I was an obsessed trap shooter 25 years ago, and found myself reloading 500 to 1,000 rds a week. Hmmmm, maybe thats when I realized the old lady was bored? So was I.
I suddenly realized I had a lot more fun shooting.

I save up about 600-700 bucks at a time and order my M2 from the CMP. I've been doing it long enough where I've got more than 7,ooo rounds stashed. The greek is in sealed spam cans and it looks as good as as 2005 Q3131. The LC has a few delinking scratches, but so what. ? It's all not corrosive, I get some of both. I have no clue how much ammo the CMP has, but I'd bet right now if I stopped buying it, I might might live long enough to get most of the way through it. I'm 55, not married anymore, not putting any kids thru school, I've paid my dues. I'll probably end up croaking with a few thousand rounds left over.........I'll leave it to you Arfcomers...you guys can fight over it.
Nothing wrong with stacking it deep, especially if you're afraid its going to dry up. But I'd be willing to bet the CMP has access to a few million rounds.....maybe more.
Once you've got your paperwork submitted, buying ammo from the CMP is a piece of cake. You just need a strong back, those ammo cases are 76 lbs each!


Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:53:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lancew:
I did some checking with sources that I trust, and found some interesting things out. The real danger of commercial ammo is not so much the powder, but the bullet weight. Heavier bullets in commercial hunting loads can increase chamber pressure, and consequently pressure that the operating rod sees, and as such are not recommended for the Garand. The same holds true for handloads, heavy bullets should be avoided (as well as fast burning powders). As someone previously stated, commercial ammo in the 150 grain bullet weight area should be just OK. So I was wrong, sorta.



Actually it's slow burning powders. If you use a powder with too fast a burn rate the port pressure (not chanber pressure) peaks eariler in the barrel so the port pressure is lower at the gas port then what M2 ball spec calls for. This means that you may have problems with ejecting the brass case.

now if the port pressure is too high, cause by slow burning powders, then you run the risk of bending your op rod and causing undue wear and tear on your rifle. BTW, most commerical powders in the 30-06 are too slow for the garand's gas system. I have looked into this area extensivly a few years ago before I started reloading.

Bullet weight is important also because it increses port pressure, but a lot of people seem to think that as long as it's 150 grs, it's good to go. Stick with the CMP ammo, Korean, or anything loaded to M2 ball specs.

Chamber pressure is not the issue here. I believe that you are confusing the issue. The chamber pressure should be about the same in all the different comparable loadings, somewhere in the 50,000 PSI, IIRC. Chamber pressure is different then port pressure.

I don;t really want to argue but this issue comes up all the time. I used to surf Jouster all the time but latley it seems like the same topics keep recycling so I haven't been going there much. this issue used to come up damn near weekly over there. It almost got as bad as the 5.56v223 issue.

Lancew, we can still be friends, I was just giving him a different point of view based on the information that I have learned about the garand's ammo requirements.

The best thing to do is get an adjustable gas plug that vents the excess gasses, lowdering the port pressure of the ammo to the correct pressure to safely operate the garand's gas system. This is what the non-reloaders and hunters are going to need to do in the future in order to shoot these rifles.

agillig, if you wait to get a garand, you'll be sorry. I wished I lived 2 hours away from the CMP. Of course, I would be broke but have lots of garands.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:11:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:

Originally Posted By lancew:
...checking with sources that I trust, and found some interesting things out. The real danger of commercial ammo is not so much the powder, ...



Actually it's slow burning powders...

Chamber pressure is not the issue here. I believe that you are confusing the issue. The chamber pressure should be about the same in all the different comparable loadings, somewhere in the 50,000 PSI, IIRC. Chamber pressure is different then port pressure.


The best thing to do is get an adjustable gas plug that vents the excess gasses, lowdering the port pressure of the ammo to the correct pressure to safely operate the garand's gas system. This is what the non-reloaders and hunters are going to need to do in the future in order to shoot these rifles.



Lancew: If bullet weight was the most important consideration, why do the loading manuals that bother to mention it say that powder selection is critical?

Just because you've "been active" on Jouster for "over 3 years" means diddly squat.

Colt100 has a far better grip on the answer.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:16:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
I shot PMC 150 from my Garand with no problems.

I found that the CMP Greek has more of a "kick" to it than the PMC ammo.
The PMC is more like the CMP LC ammo.

YMMV.



You are completely missing the point.

"Kick" has nothing to do with it, nor does muzzle velocity.

Re-read the threads on port pressure.

If you doubt those of us who say "NAY", just write to the ammo companies and ask them if the powders they use are suitable for the Garands gas system. The answers will surprise you. They WANT to sell ammo, but they will say NO to your question.

Tim
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:26:16 AM EDT
Or you guys could get a schuster vented/adjustable gas nut and shoot anything you want. I personally shoot only M2 ball from my garands because that's what they're supposed to shoot. I got the vented nuts in case I have to shoot something else.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand06:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
I shot PMC 150 from my Garand with no problems.

I found that the CMP Greek has more of a "kick" to it than the PMC ammo.
The PMC is more like the CMP LC ammo.

YMMV.



You are completely missing the point.

"Kick" has nothing to do with it, nor does muzzle velocity.

Re-read the threads on port pressure.

If you doubt those of us who say "NAY", just write to the ammo companies and ask them if the powders they use are suitable for the Garands gas system. The answers will surprise you. They WANT to sell ammo, but they will say NO to your question.

Tim



Maybe so, with the exception of black hills. Which I've already confronted you on this before. Don't broad brush stroke everything.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:18:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:

The best thing to do is get an adjustable gas plug that vents the excess gasses, lowdering the port pressure of the ammo to the correct pressure to safely operate the garand's gas system. This is what the non-reloaders and hunters are going to need to do in the future in order to shoot these rifles.





Praetorian55: Day late and dollar short.

Tim
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:22:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:26:46 AM EDT by Garand06]

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Garand06:
If you doubt those of us who say "NAY", just write to the ammo companies and ask them if the powders they use are suitable for the Garands gas system. The answers will surprise you. They WANT to sell ammo, but they will say NO to your question.

Tim



Maybe so, with the exception of black hills. Which I've already confronted you on this before. Don't broad brush stroke everything.




A thinking person would take my response to mean check it out and if they say "OK" then use it. There are probably others besides Black Hill, too. Why bust my chops for not mentioning it?

Tim
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:12:32 AM EDT
Thanks for the great info guys. I think for now I'm just going to try and pick up some M2 ball for this weekend from a local shop and once I get myself setup at CMP I can just get ammo from there.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:28:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand06:
Lancew: If bullet weight was the most important consideration, why do the loading manuals that bother to mention it say that powder selection is critical?

Just because you've "been active" on Jouster for "over 3 years" means diddly squat.

Colt100 has a far better grip on the answer.



Yes, I accept Colt100's answer on the situation - his answer makes sense and I yield that I was wrong.

I have only been on Jouster for 3 years, but I'm not a newbie. I am 34 years old and have collected and worked on guns for 22 of those years. I eat, sleep, and breathe guns. I have built numerous AK's, AR15s, FALs, and Garands from parts kits, so I am intimately familiar with the mechanics and construction of most military weapons. I am a chemist by degree, a machinist by training, and a CNC technician by vocation. As far as Garands, I have owned everything from an original pre-pearl Harbor SA to an original late HRA. I admitted DON'T KNOW everything about Garands or guns - but I've got a pretty damned good handle on most anything gun-related and have been around the block more than once.

Not bragging here, just listing my qualifications to give an educated opinion on anything gun related. Was I wrong on this issue - on the most part. I live to learn more every day.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:27:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand06:

Originally Posted By colt100:

The best thing to do is get an adjustable gas plug that vents the excess gasses, lowdering the port pressure of the ammo to the correct pressure to safely operate the garand's gas system. This is what the non-reloaders and hunters are going to need to do in the future in order to shoot these rifles.





Praetorian55: Day late and dollar short.

Tim



I'd say I at least break even on this one. At least I gave a manufacturer
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:57:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Praetorian55:


I'd say I at least break even on this one. At least I gave a manufacturer



Very true, very true!!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:22:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand06:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Garand06:
If you doubt those of us who say "NAY", just write to the ammo companies and ask them if the powders they use are suitable for the Garands gas system. The answers will surprise you. They WANT to sell ammo, but they will say NO to your question.

Tim



Maybe so, with the exception of black hills. Which I've already confronted you on this before. Don't broad brush stroke everything.




A thinking person would take my response to mean check it out and if they say "OK" then use it. There are probably others besides Black Hill, too. Why bust my chops for not mentioning it?

Tim



So, in other words, you haven't done it either, which you are just assuming. That's why I'm busting your chops. I haven't either but I'm posting the one I did in fact do it with. And got the go ahead. You are trying to make a point with an assumption. I'm using a question that was actually posed to a manufacture.

BTW though, I just noticed on cabela's that black hills is now loading the 155 amax in their .30-06 load. That may be interesting for some of you.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:09:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

So, in other words, you haven't done it either...



Done it myself, no.

Reason being, I just don't care. I will normally only shoot mil-surp or my own loads. When I choose to hunt with my M1with commercial hunting ammo, I use a Schusters Nut set wide open and use it as a straight pull bolt-action and do not need to worry about it.

Some time back on Jouster, someone posted replies recieved from Federal - regarding the American Eagle(this is NOT the same as the custom stuff they make for CMP) line and Remington.

Both stated "NO" when asked if they used powders suitable for the Garand.

Tim
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:42:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By agillig:
See, this is the biggest reason I haven't made the 2 hour trek to the North Store to pick up a Garand. Aren't you guys worried than in 3 or 4 years, all the M2 will be bought up? What then? Are those of us who don't reload, but do enjoy 200+ shooting sessions just plain out of luck?



I doubt that M2 spec ammo will ever be gone.But,if it is then .308 is only a barrel change away .
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:31:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand06:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

So, in other words, you haven't done it either...



Done it myself, no.

Reason being, I just don't care. I will normally only shoot mil-surp or my own loads. When I choose to hunt with my M1with commercial hunting ammo, I use a Schusters Nut set wide open and use it as a straight pull bolt-action and do not need to worry about it.

Some time back on Jouster, someone posted replies recieved from Federal - regarding the American Eagle(this is NOT the same as the custom stuff they make for CMP) line and Remington.

Both stated "NO" when asked if they used powders suitable for the Garand.

Tim



Well that's good for you. Alrighty then. Everyone has their own beliefs. But I take contention because you did call it "foolish" and you use assumptions to back up your words. Look, it probably is a good idea to be on the safe side. They're older rifles, and that's fine. But some of us don't subscribe to that way. And on top of that people shoot commercial ammo through m1a's all the time and no one questions it. Well at least not the same amount as with Garands. Yet I don't know if that gas system is any beefier than the garands.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:47:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

But I take contention because you did call it "foolish"



I still believe that.


Originally Posted By JJREA:
And on top of that people shoot commercial ammo through m1a's all the time and no one questions it... Yet I don't know if that gas system is any beefier than the garands.



Here I'll violate one of the rules I try to follow and post what I am not certain about.

I have read numerous times about the self regulating gas system on M1a's. If they have this, and I have no idea, then there is no problem whatsoever in using any available .308 ammo.

I think you are right about the gas system being beefier on an M1a, the op rod is shorter, so it would almost HAVE to be stiffer.

Tim

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:28:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand06:
I have read numerous times about the self regulating gas system on M1a's. If they have this, and I have no idea, then there is no problem whatsoever in using any available .308 ammo.

I think you are right about the gas system being beefier on an M1a, the op rod is shorter, so it would almost HAVE to be stiffer.

Tim




The gas system on a M14 is essentially a short-stroke piston similar in concept to a M1 Carbine. The piston is held captive with a limited stroke in the cylinder, and it impinges on the relatively short operating rod (that is itself guided and held by the operating rod guide pinned onto the barrel). The gas system is no doubt superior to the Garand gas system. Remember, John Garands original design (and first production) of the Garand was the gas trap because he felt that a hole shouldn't ever be drilled in the barrel. The gas cylinder system on the Garand is a compromise at best - given a couple more years of development and a different gas system would have been on it. I haven't had a M1A in a couple of years, but I think I remember the weep hole in the bottom of the cylinder acts as a relief to dump the gases after the piston has done its job (like the holes in gas block or gas tube on an AK) - but I may be wrong on that one since its been a while.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:33:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lancew:

Originally Posted By Garand06:
I have read numerous times about the self regulating gas system on M1a's. If they have this, and I have no idea, then there is no problem whatsoever in using any available .308 ammo.

I think you are right about the gas system being beefier on an M1a, the op rod is shorter, so it would almost HAVE to be stiffer.

Tim




The gas system on a M14 is essentially a short-stroke piston similar in concept to a M1 Carbine. The piston is held captive with a limited stroke in the cylinder, and it impinges on the relatively short operating rod (that is itself guided and held by the operating rod guide pinned onto the barrel). The gas system is no doubt superior to the Garand gas system. Remember, John Garands original design (and first production) of the Garand was the gas trap because he felt that a hole shouldn't ever be drilled in the barrel. The gas cylinder system on the Garand is a compromise at best - given a couple more years of development and a different gas system would have been on it. I haven't had a M1A in a couple of years, but I think I remember the weep hole in the bottom of the cylinder acts as a relief to dump the gases after the piston has done its job (like the holes in gas block or gas tube on an AK) - but I may be wrong on that one since its been a while.



Huh? How do you have a gas system without a "hole" in the barrel?

Well anyways Garand06, this is one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on. I don't think my stance is "foolish" though. But it's a free country, you can call it whatever you want. It does not mean you're right.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:47:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Commercial ammo will "work", but may not be healthy for your Garand.

Stick to M2Ball ammo.

The problem is the port pressure is too high in modern ammo for the Garand gas system. Oprod damage can result from using commercial ammo.

Oprods are about 100 bucks a pop right now, and going higher.



As stated in the quote, you need M2 Ball ammo.

There are only two real choices.

1. Surplus

2. Roll you own.

With surplus you need to make sure it is non-corosive. It is constantly going up in price while the quality due to age issues is going down and the good is selling out first.

With handloading you need to make the investment but the advantanges are worthwhile. The receipes are readily available as is the powder. There is the fun of producing it and the satisfaction of accomplishing something worthwhile. And the best part - you will have the highest quality M2 Ball available today at the cheapest price. WIN-WIN.

Philip
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:02:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:
[
Huh? How do you have a gas system without a "hole" in the barrel?




The Garand as it was first produced, is refered to now as the "gas trap" model. John Garand was against drilling a hole in the barrel, so his system used a "trap" that outwardly looks quite like the gas cylinder you are used to seeing on a Garand. The trap works like the expansion chamber on a Krinkov and collects the gases AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel, but before it leaves the endpiece of the trap. It then takes these gases down and impinges on the operating rod just like the gas cylinder version. This method proved to be somewhat dangerous, and the conventional gas system was devised for new production Garands middle of 1940. Existing Gas Trap Garands were ordered modified to gas cylinder configuration. This was done to most all of the 50 thousand Gas Traps, but over a period of time. A few originals (and I do mean few) and a few more (but probably less than 100 or so) correct restorations are around. There are some reproduction stocks, gas trap assemblies, operating rods, and springs available - so there are some "repro/restos" around. A bona-fide original will bring near $60K or more in excellent condition.

Here's a link to Fulton Armory's story on the gas trap
www.fulton-armory.com/GasTrapGallery.htm
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