Quoted: I'd really like to get my hands on a SOCOM so I could chrono the bullet velocity and put some of this crap to rest. When I chrono'd a 22" M1A and a 16" AR10, the velocity loss was about 150 fps, IIRC.  That's about the same loss at 75yds down range from the M1A.  Not a huge deal.

I have a test in "Weapons of Law Enforcement" magazine (IIRC) where they tested 3 JLD PTR-91's, 2 of them with 18" barrels and one with a 16" barrel.  I also have a magazine with some 16" SOCOM tests.  Both magazines post velocities from 2500-2600 IIRC.  I remember being surprised that there wasn't more velocity lost than this.

It is one thing to compare .308 out of a 24" barrel to .308 out of a 16" barrel for long distance shooting, but I'm am truly amazed at the number of people that think that losing two inches from 18" to 16" makes your rifle that much less effective.  I guarantee that if htey shot both w/o knowing the barrel length, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference downrange, I sure can't

Guns and Ammo's latest "Combat Tactics" magazine (sponsored by Surefire) had chrono'd loads from a SOCOM and a 16" Armalite AR-10. IIRC one was @ 2511fps and the other was @ 2516fps (can't remember which was which) with Winchester 147gr White Box USA ammo. That is basically M-80 Ball. Heavier bullets did less, although I can't recall exact velocities for those.

Normal velocity with M-80 Ball out of a 22" barrel is @ 2750fps.  

Look up some tests:

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Sept. 2005
18" PTR-91 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2447 average fps
18" PTR-91A1 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2500 average fps
16" PTR-91K w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2441 average fps,
surprising that the 16" barrel is only 6 fps off the 1st 18" barrel PTR-91

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine
24" barrel H-S Precision FBI HTR .308 bolt action had an average of 2462-2623 fps with 4 different types of 168 gr. .308, I expected higher velocities than this for a 24" barrel using the same .308 (Black Hills 168) as the other rifles (the Black Hills 168 average fps was 2552)

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine July 2005
DPMS 16" barrel Panther LR-308T w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2421 average fps

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Oct. 2004
S/A 18" barrel Squad Scout .308 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2503 average fps

Guns & Ammo Combat Arms special issue
DSA FAL 16" barrel w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2504 average fps

What do all these numbers tell us?  It seems that using the same ammo and not controlling for other factors (elevation, humidity, temp, etc.) on average you really only lose around a minimum of 6 fps and a maximum of 82 fps going from 18" to 16" given these tests.  That's fine by me.

Very interesting data.

Quoted: Look up some tests: Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Sept. 2005 18" PTR-91 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2447 average fps 18" PTR-91A1 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2500 average fps 16" PTR-91K w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2441 average fps, surprising that the 16" barrel is only 6 fps off the 1st 18" barrel PTR-91 Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine 24" barrel H-S Precision FBI HTR .308 bolt action had an average of 2462-2623 fps with 4 different types of 168 gr. .308, I expected higher velocities than this for a 24" barrel using the same .308 (Black Hills 168) as the other rifles (the Black Hills 168 average fps was 2552) Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine July 2005 DPMS 16" barrel Panther LR-308T w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2421 average fps Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Oct. 2004 S/A 18" barrel Squad Scout .308 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2503 average fps Guns & Ammo Combat Arms special issue DSA FAL 16" barrel w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308:  2504 average fps What do all these numbers tell us?  It seems that using the same ammo and not controlling for other factors (elevation, humidity, temp, etc.) on average you really only lose around a minimum of 6 fps and a maximum of 82 fps going from 18" to 16" given these tests.  That's fine by me. Very interesting data.

Madness! You can't bring facts in here!


The only issue I have with my SOCOM is it's so sweet I now want to try the other M1A flavors.

If I could run a DC Vortex with an SEI sound suppressor on a 16" barreled M14 type rifle I would.

Unfortunatley I can't -- so I run with 18" barrels.

One thing to keep in mind for velocity loss is that heavier bullets in a given caliber generally lose less percentage-wise than lighter bullets when shortening barrel length. Handguns are perfect illustrations of this phenomena (but is reinforced by the previously listed rifle velocities). For example, a .45 shooting 185gr and 230gr bullets out of a 5" barrel and then a 3.5" barrel; the 185gr round will lose more fps when dropping to the shorter barrel than will the 230gr. Conversely, M-80 Ball will lose more fps when going to shorter and shorter barrel lengths than, say, 168gr Black Hills or M118LR. Of course the heavier bullets are starting out slower even out of full length barrels.      

well, if the SOCOM owners aren't happy with the 16" barrel, they can just shoot at 500 yard targets to stretch the barrel out by a couple of inches.

Quoted: I shot a muley buck with my Socom and a Aimpoint the other day at just a touch over 200 yds on my laser rangefinder.  Went down with one shot, never even thought about getting back up.  Nice buck, 5x6.

Nice shot. I could do that though with a Marlin .30-30 through the irons. You don't need all that gadgetry to drop a buck at 200 yds. Daniel Boone like Raf said would drop a buck with a non rifled musket at much further ditances that that. This is where the term "Buck" came from in the days when deer skin was worth the price of gold. Deer hide and venison were often brought back from the savage land of Kentucky and Appalachia by hunters and sold to the rich on the east coast.

Y'all wouldn't want to be within 200 yds of a Confederate Marksman in the great war of northern agression while he was armed with a muzzle loader.

Still in all, nice shot. I'd be cooking up venison for the kids tonight if I were you.

Quoted: Quoted: I shot a muley buck with my Socom and a Aimpoint the other day at just a touch over 200 yds on my laser rangefinder.  Went down with one shot, never even thought about getting back up.  Nice buck, 5x6. Nice shot. I could do that though with a Marlin .30-30 through the irons. You don't need all that gadgetry to drop a buck at 200 yds. Daniel Boone like Raf said would drop a buck with a non rifled musket at much further ditances that that. This is where the term "Buck" came from in the days when deer skin was worth the price of gold. Deer hide and venison were often brought back from the savage land of Kentucky and Appalachia by hunters and sold to the rich on the east coast. Y'all wouldn't want to be within 200 yds of a Confederate Marksman in the great war of northern agression while he was armed with a muzzle loader. Still in all, nice shot. I'd be cooking up venison for the kids tonight if I were you.

Well, I never said it was an act of God that made the bullet go on target.  2-300yds out here on the plains is a normal shooting distance.

Quoted: If I could run a DC Vortex with an SEI sound suppressor on a 16" barreled M14 type rifle I would. Unfortunatley I can't -- so I run with 18" barrels.

I've got one of these cans coming. I have a 18 inch bush rifle in a Sage EBR stock and a 22 inch rifle with a tradiional fiber stock. Going to be interesting to see how well the M1A suppresses. I'd like to try a Socom, but with 2 of these I think I have enough $ in these things.

I personally chrono'ed my socom with some really ugly surplus ammo that left orange flakes all over everything I owned. It averaged around 2525 fpm using a PACT 2 timer in 80 degree heat. I shot 20 rounds.

Before we got into the pissing contest on whose toys are better the question was posed. i do not think there is a difference in the laser line purported to come out of a 18 in Bush-y, versus the lead zepplin rainbow out of the 16 inch barrel.

Hey Glocks suck, 1911's rule. Why? cause I say so. Who the hell are you? No one. Then shut up!

This thread should follow the same bent. You don't like it, who cares? Don't buy it. Keep your I hate Howard Stern so let's ban him attitude at home.

I like mine and I will like it even after you tell me that you highly esteemed opinion on the gun or the manufacturer disagrees with mine.

http://m-14forum.com/showthread.php?t=14097&highlight=gunfighter


Hello All,
                     The above link is a range report of the first time I took my new Socom to the range. As far as the 18" vs. 16" debate = bigger is better for impact , bullet drop , etc. etc.    
                      That being said --- at the distance the Socom was intended for, the 16" is just fine. Try clearing a room/house with a full sized M1A and then compare it to a Socom. The Socom was never intended to be a "sniper"rifle. The sights are NOT intended for CMP matches or long range.
                        I have owned H&Ks,FALs , FNCs, ARs,AKs , BM59s, Valmets etc. --- the Socom is the lightest recoiling .308 I have ever used !!!!
                        As far as Springfield Armory --- read my range report.  This was with a rifle I took straight out of the box !!!
                        Like some have already posted --- a short , handy ,powerfull, light kicking CQB rifle -- it does have a place in the "real world".
                        A quick sidenote --- I once shot/ROed a "jungle lane" type of combat match. The cardboard targets were placed behind 12" - 24" of grass/brush etc.    When I scored the targets -- the .223 "keyholed" or missed the targets ,on a avarage 25/40% ---- the .308s only keyholed less then 5% .
                                        Just my outlook on this --- Bird

Hello all, I'm new to this forum. Not to beat a dead horse and especially mindful of the fact I'm new to this forum and am late jumping into a debate but I just bought a Socom 16. I love it. I bought it to use for 100 to 300 yard shooting and as a handy (meaning short) rifle to use in a tree stand when deer hunting. I also own a Bushmaster 5.56 and I love it however under adverse conditions I would choose the M1A simply due to my experiences as a Marine fortunate enough to have been issued an M-14 way back when. I will never knock the AR rifle in 5.56 but has anyone noticed any of the Iraq footage on the news lately. I saw a segment that showed a couple of guys in a Marine patrol carrying AK's. The news from some of my contacts there is that some guys are trying to obtain 30 caliber weapons.

Quoted: I saw a segment that showed a couple of guys in a Marine patrol carrying AK's. The news from some of my contacts there is that some guys are trying to obtain 30 caliber weapons.

I won't bust your balls because you are new and seem sincere. I suspect that there may be some at ARFCOM who would though. They might label you as a troll if you had posted this in GD. The 5.56 vs 7.62 debate has been beat to death for eons around here.

Anyways... I haven't seen any war footage of guys carrying anything but standard military issue weapons (mostly M4's). If they really are seeking something with more of a punch though, I wouldn't blame them one bit. I love my Bushy AR, but have an M1A on the way precisely because I wanted something with more oomph to it.

Thanks for your comment. I wasn't trying to beat the horse so to speak. I really do love my Bushmaster 5.56. I guess it's one of those generation gap things (with no offense meant). I was issued an M-14 at the young old age of seventeen and was smitten with it. I found this forum while searching for info on the SA Socom 16. The footage of marines with AK's was in the footage of the recent newscast about the 10 Marines that were killed by the booby trapped artillery shells. It showed Marines on patrol (probably file footage) and I happened to notice some with AK's. My official opinion is to stick with whatever one likes that one shoots the best and enjoys the most. I guess I was saying my preference was for the M1A. I did not mean to imply that one is any better than the other (for arguments sake).

The guys with Kalashnikovs in the Marine patrol were most likely Iraqi soldiers.  We've got 'em wearing surplus U.S. chocolate chip camoflage and other gear, but they carry AK variants in 7.62x39mm simply because of the ubiquitousness and simplicity.  It isn't that the rifle is perceived to be 'better', it's that they're already paid for, physically present, and familiar to the indigenous population.

Duh, you know I didn't pay close attention to the uniforms and I bet you're correct. The Marines  wear Marpat so I should've noticed the difference. My bad. hinking.gif
BTW this is a pretty cool site.

No problem, Mr. Joker.  While my Marine Corps "career" was altogether too brief, I still have friends that are in, including one or two in 'The Sandbox'.  Apparently there are a lot of joint patrols being done these days, so it's not unusual to see Iraqi soldiers and U.S. Marines (or other coalition forces, for that matter) in the same place at the same time.

Welcome aboard, and enjoy the board.  There are a lot of people here with a real wealth of information.  They can get fired up sometimes, but if you have a good attitude and a desire to learn, it's a really fun place.

Quoted: Duh, you know I didn't pay close attention to the uniforms and I bet you're correct. The Marines  wear Marpat so I should've noticed the difference. My bad. BTW this is a pretty cool site.

Then again, you might be one of the few qualified to mention it...

SOF was following an army tank company and such, and those guys picked up AK's.  But that was because they mostly had m9's.  The guys inside the tank that is.  I think one of them had an m4.  

Quoted: Thanks for your comment. I wasn't trying to beat the horse so to speak. I really do love my Bushmaster 5.56. I guess it's one of those generation gap things (with no offense meant). I was issued an M-14 at the young old age of seventeen and was smitten with it. I found this forum while searching for info on the SA Socom 16. The footage of marines with AK's was in the footage of the recent newscast about the 10 Marines that were killed by the booby trapped artillery shells. It showed Marines on patrol (probably file footage) and I happened to notice some with AK's. My official opinion is to stick with whatever one likes that one shoots the best and enjoys the most. I guess I was saying my preference was for the M1A. I did not mean to imply that one is any better than the other (for arguments sake).

I could tell that's where you were coming from. I piped-in to sort-of defuse the situation in case some of the resident troll-seers happened to be in here at the time. The people at the Armory forum seem to be adults though. Like I said, if you'd posted that in the Genereal Discussion then undoubted some of the people who like to flame would've accused you of starting the age-old .223 vs. .308 war again. I definitely have a preference for the M1A also. I tried to talk myself into a FAL, but have an M1A waiting for me to pay it off because I want something that plain "looks American" and looks good. I'm a little funny what way...

Quoted: But back to the SOCOM.......a toy.

Unless you're frequently engaging in combat, everything in your safe is also a "toy".

Quoted: Quoted: But back to the SOCOM.......a toy. Unless you're frequently engaging in combat, everything in your safe is also a "toy".

Good point! And though I'm not fond of the SOCOM, I certainly wouldn't laugh at a guy who was pointing one at me!

There is not, AFAIK that much real world drop off.  One guy on FALFILES posted 20, 18 and 16 numbers.

They were close enough that I went with the 16.

Quoted: The guys with Kalashnikovs in the Marine patrol were most likely Iraqi soldiers.  We've got 'em wearing surplus U.S. chocolate chip camoflage and other gear, but they carry AK variants in 7.62x39mm simply because of the ubiquitousness and simplicity.  It isn't that the rifle is perceived to be 'better', it's that they're already paid for, physically present, and familiar to the indigenous population.

Iraqi Soldiers:
Iraqi Soldiers 1:


I think these are contractors:

I have a SOCOM 16 in a SAGE EBR stock.  I have about 700 - 800 rounds through it.

I have a PWS for targets beyond 300 meters.  The SOCOM 16 or an M4-style platform will handle targets within 300 meters.  7.62x51mm NATO provides greater terminal ballistics.

I am an AK fanatic.  It is my favorite weapon to collect and I am becomming quite proficient at modifying them into different configurations/gunsmithing etc...

I just picked up my first every M1A today.  Its a SOCOM 16 (now I want a SOCOM 8 (8 inch barrel SBR M1A)).  Somebody make one please...  Here is some video of an 8" EBR http://media.putfile.com/12-11-05-MG-Shoot-small

Fargo