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Posted: 8/4/2002 1:15:52 PM EDT
I like the history of the Garand action and i think the switch over was a solution to a non existing problem.
Link Posted: 8/4/2002 1:22:38 PM EDT
I agree. You can reload a Garand so fast it doesn't need a magazine configuration.

But I think their decision to change to the M14 was for the full auto capability. Which, as history has shown, was useless in the M14 as one could not control it.

IMO they should have developed a lighter weapon like an M16 smaller caliber (but larger than 223) in semi-only. Maybe an AR type with a 243 round. This would be the standard infantry weapon. Then add a SAW type weapon to each squad.

Just a thought. I'm not a professional or anything.

Link Posted: 8/4/2002 2:18:45 PM EDT
No the M14 was just the natural evolution of the M1 Garand.A twenty round magazine gives you a firepower advantage compared to enbloc clips,the newer gas system was a reliability advantage over the Garand gas system.
As far as caliber go's the US Military has always looked for the cheapest ways to train its troops on a weapon and i am sorry to say it does not work that way the only way to become proficiant is to train and fire that weapon as much as possible.
7.62mm does not kick that hard,yes it is heavier than 5.56 but well trained riflemen dont need massive amounts of ammo,and if i run out that Ammo Tech is fucked cause if the enemy has not killed him i will.
You just need lots of ammo for the Automatic weapons,SAW weapons are the most important weapon in the Sqaud.I dont know of any Commander or Manual that has said its ok to delink SAW ammo for rifles.
Link Posted: 8/4/2002 2:22:45 PM EDT
Because they are full power, proven, BATTLE RIFLES! The M1/M14 & M1A would be my first choice weapon (long gun) for most any situation. They are not intended for CQB/Entry, but for urban, desert, arctic, mountainous, open fighting, etc. there is no better IMO. There are other full power battle rifles that are damm good, but the M1/M14 & M1A are the best!

Libertas an Mortis!!
Link Posted: 8/4/2002 2:57:56 PM EDT
I like my new fiberglass stocked Scout with the Aimpoint so much that if I were not worried about being able to replace my pre-ban AR CAR, I would sell it.
The scout handles like a dream. Much better than the full size M1A and if feels about the same weight as a HBAR AR. I hate to argue with the AR die-hards about the ammo weight considering that one 7.62 shot is better than several 5.56 shots. I dont want to get shot at by EITHER but,,,,
Link Posted: 8/4/2002 5:39:14 PM EDT
Needless to say...I love the "Abuse Factor"...Meaning that a Battle Rifle should be able to have enough tolerance to be accurate yet function under dank or gritty conditions...Which I feel has indeed been proven with the M1A series!!!

Hence my moniker...M1A-A1...Short barrel...folding stock w/pistol grip...And yes she's PRE-BAN
Link Posted: 8/4/2002 5:58:09 PM EDT
I was issued a M16A2 when i was a boot,then again when i became a Sqaud leader.I immediatly went out and bought a Bushmaster A3 20",with been being issued two m16's and buying 1 Ar15 i have come to the conclusion that they are not a super reliable rifle.
I had the chance of shooting a M14 in the Marines and i fell in love with it and then i went out and bought my M1A and i shoot it much more than my AR.
Link Posted: 8/4/2002 6:01:16 PM EDT
M1A-A1 your Pre Ban sounds like a bad dude.

Link Posted: 8/4/2002 11:36:28 PM EDT
Maybe because I "slept" with one at 17? Quite frankly I am surprised hearing about other weapon types jamming or multiple shots to thump an opponent on a regular basis. All through basic in '67 and up to today, I never heard such a thing about the M14/M1A. And (back then) at 127 lbs., I had no trouble in FA mode whatsoever. (I keep reading about it) O.K., so perhaps putting the gas system over the barrel may have helped the muzzle climb, if I can think of any faults at all. At least when compared to the much loved Garand, the '14's magazine can be removed at any time, with a round still chambered, ready to fire, while topping off or inserting a fresh 20 rounder. I think the M14 is on top of the evolution of all U.S. battle rifles.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 8:02:09 AM EDT
I like the M-14 because the design is proven rugged, reliable and accurate. It is easy to strip and clean. I like U.S. Infantry rifles (an their clones). I own an M1903, M-1, M-1 carbine, AR-15(A1 style) AR-15(A2style), so an M-14 clone was a must have. It has become my favorite of them all with the carbine a close 2nd.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:10:33 PM EDT
The M14 is a PIP (Product Improvement Program) of the M1 Garand. Several factors led to the M14. Initially after action reports and interviews with soldiers and marines led the military to realize engagements over 300 meters were rare enough to be excluded from design concerns and US warfighting doctrine. The .30-06 cartridge was adopted because of Teddy Roosevelt's experience with the underpowered.30-40 Krag (The Garand was originally designed to fire a .276 cartridge. Doug McArthur nixed it and demanded the gun use .30-06 cartridge that was in the inventory by the hundreds of millions)

Around this time we were also dealing with NATO and STANAGs (Standardization Agreements) that wanted interoperability with other NATO countries because WW II showed a problem with units along seams (where different units sit side by side along the FEBA) not being able to share ammo. The Brits wanted some crap round, the French wanted it to signal surrender, and finally they all decided on the T-28 Cartridge. Since Winchester was in on the development of it they got permission to market the round as the .308 Win since all military cartridges sold so well.

The M14 was able to be modified at the direct support level to fire in the full auto mode to take the place of the BAR, which being chambered for the venerable .30-06 would not use STANAG ammo (BTW the circle with a cross in it on a cartridge case headstamp means that round will perform exactly like any other round with that mark; kind of like the good housekeeping seal of approval for ammo). So, the full auto capable M14 was to fill the autorifleman slot in the MTO&E.

The magazine was one of the PIP items most requested by troops. Enemy soldiers would wait for the familiar "Ching," sound that meant the US soldier was reloading to move and you can't readily "Top off," a Garand prior to rushing a position.

In full auto it is more of an accident to stay on your point of aim for more than 3 rounds, which is why we currently use 3 round burst with the M16A2.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 5:11:02 PM EDT
The M1 and M14 are riflemen's rifle's, they have a feel and balance along with excellent sights and inherent accuracy that lend themselves to marksmenship. In the hands of a trained marksman they are capable of fast accurate fire that is effective at all practical ranges. I find them easy to shoot and maintain. They are a shooter's dream.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 7:57:59 PM EDT
My fault; it wasn't the T28 round, the cartridge was T-65, sorry bout that
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 8:23:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usmc0311:
M1A-A1 your Pre Ban sounds like a bad dude.




Yes she is!!!

I still love my AR'S...However...The weight ratio vs. Caliber...I'll still take 20rds of 7.62x51 over 30rds of 5.56 in steady aimed and concise shots placed!!!


I'm also a student of Chuck Taylor

OK I've now dated my self...:--)
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 8:43:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M1A-A1:

Originally Posted By usmc0311:
M1A-A1 your Pre Ban sounds like a bad dude.

hr


Yes she is!!!

I still love my AR'S...However...The weight ratio vs. Caliber...I'll still take 20rds of 7.62x51 over 30rds of 5.56 in steady aimed and concise shots placed!!!


I'm also a student of Chuck Taylor hr


Wow 20 rounds of 7.62 is the same as 30 5.56!
I will have to write that down.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 9:08:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 73easting:

Originally Posted By M1A-A1:

Originally Posted By usmc0311:
M1A-A1 your Pre Ban sounds like a bad dude.




Yes she is!!!

I still love my AR'S...However...The weight ratio vs. Caliber...I'll still take 20rds of 7.62x51 over 30rds of 5.56 in steady aimed and concise shots placed!!!


I'm also a student of Chuck Taylor

OK I've now dated my self...:--)



Wow 20 rounds of 7.62 is the same as 30 5.56!
I will have to write that down.



If you have to hit them 2 or 3 times with 5.56mm to get them same results as 1 round of 7.62mm then 30 rounds of 5.56mm is considerably less than 20 rounds of 7.62mm.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 1:02:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 1:05:54 AM EDT by usmc0311]
Read the Ammo FAQ here you will see that 5.56 bullets either m193 or m855 has to be at or over 2,700 fps to do their thing aka blow up or breakup or do whatever they do to increase their wounding effectivness.
Which translates into the fact that m193 is effective out of a 20" barrel out to 200m and m855 is out to 150m.
I have never heard of M80 7.62 ball having much trouble dispatching anyone at ranges well over 200m.I believe the reason this is because the 7.62 round has so much greater energy transfer in the body compared to 5.56.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:16:37 PM EDT
I guess you ment hits and not the weight issue.
You might want to read up on the ammo thing.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 2:01:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M1A-A1:
folding stock w/pistol grip...And yes she's PRE-BAN



Where did you get your stock from? How much? I've got a pre-ban SA M1A that I would love to put a pistol-grip folder on.

Libertas an Mortis!!
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 4:48:13 PM EDT
Because its just pretty :)
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