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Posted: 5/28/2016 1:24:18 AM EDT
Found different ideas about this. I understand that an SBR not in SBR configuration is not under the purview of the NFA. However, isn't there another area of the law that prohibits a rifle being configured as a pistol? If true, this would seem to make all those SBR enclosures for pistol conversions pretty worthless but Has this question been settled?

thanks.
Link Posted: 5/28/2016 1:39:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Pistol > Rifle > Pistol. Configured as a pistol it's a pistol as long as it was a pistol first.

Pistol > Short Barrel Rifle > Pistol? This hasn't been answered by the ATF. That doesn't mean it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol, that just means that maybe it's still considered an SBR or maybe it's considered a pistol.

Make sense? (Obviously it's idiotic, but I mean...is that clear?)
Link Posted: 5/28/2016 1:10:56 PM EDT
[#2]
I'm not sure I could answer your question, but get a load of this. In Michigan, any firearm less than 26" OAL must be registered AS a pistol within the state. Therefore my 10.5" SBR is federally a rifle and in Michigan, a pistol (and a rifle as well I guess).

Michigan requires pistols to be registered but not rifles so it was a way for the libs to get us to register our evil short rifles. It kind of back fired though, as most people didn't really care about the registration anyway since they are already on the NFA registry. What that allows us to do is carry our SBR pistol loaded in a vehicle (Michigan does not already allow loaded rifles in a vehicle).

Just some "fun facts."
Link Posted: 5/29/2016 3:32:53 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
I'm not sure I could answer your question, but get a load of this. In Michigan, any firearm less than 26" OAL must be registered AS a pistol within the state. Therefore my 10.5" SBR is federally a rifle and in Michigan, a pistol (and a rifle as well I guess).

Michigan requires pistols to be registered but not rifles so it was a way for the libs to get us to register our evil short rifles. It kind of back fired though, as most people didn't really care about the registration anyway since they are already on the NFA registry. What that allows us to do is carry our SBR pistol loaded in a vehicle (Michigan does not already allow loaded rifles in a vehicle).

Just some "fun facts."
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Clark County (Vegas) used to be the same way. Several forum members had their SBRs listed on their permit
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 10:41:47 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Pistol > Rifle > Pistol. Configured as a pistol it's a pistol as long as it was a pistol first.

Pistol > Short Barrel Rifle > Pistol? This hasn't been answered by the ATF. That doesn't mean it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol, that just means that maybe it's still considered an SBR or maybe it's considered a pistol.

Make sense? (Obviously it's idiotic, but I mean...is that clear?)
View Quote


To expand on this you have to have an idea of where ATF is coming from.

You have to look back in the past and see how things have changed with the TC case and then the 2011-4 ruling.

Everything I have seen officially from the ATF states a number of things.

1) It is pretty clear that as long as a firearm starts life as a pistol, pistol > rifle > pistol is ok and having all the parts to do so does NOT make one have illegal possession of a SBR

2) Configuring a SBR with 16+" barrel and AOL 26+" removes the SBR from purview of the NFA and can therefore be taken across state lines or sold outside of the rules and regs of the NFA

3) IF maintaining possession, and the configuration in #2 is temporary, no new SBR is made when returning to a configuration under the purview of the NFA as a SBR

It's not a hard stretch to argue that pistol > SBR > pistol should be legal by pistol > rifle > SBR > rifle > pistol ... BUT you may be making that argument in court as there (to my knowledge) has never been an official OK from the ATF

And ATF has always taken the stance of more restrictive not less

It comes down to the last step. Is going from rifle to pistol allowed if a SBR has been made in the middle.

Cases can be made on both sides: 1) A pistol can NOT be created from a rifle, and SBRing the original pistol has perm changed the firearm to a rifle. 2) If creating a title 1 "rifle" from a pistol does NOT perm change its status to a rifle, then creating a title 2 "rifle" shouldn't either

Unfortunately, I think this is going to have to be decided in court, so it's up to the individual to decide if it's worth the risk
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 6:35:09 PM EDT
[#5]
All of these glock carbine enclosure kits or add on shoulder stocks would seem to be nearly useless if the expectation is that the pistol must always remain in rifle configuration.
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 7:15:02 PM EDT
[#6]
No..it is a pistol...now pay $200 and put your pistol into the enclosure and it is an SBR...remove the pistol from the enclosure and it is ...wait for it...a pistol.
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 7:39:50 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
Pistol > Rifle > Pistol. Configured as a pistol it's a pistol as long as it was a pistol first.

Pistol > Short Barrel Rifle > Pistol? This hasn't been answered by the ATF. That doesn't mean it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol, that just means that maybe it's still considered an SBR or maybe it's considered a pistol.

Make sense? (Obviously it's idiotic, but I mean...is that clear?)
View Quote


This.

My opinion, when you make an SBR you're making a new firearm, even if you started with a Title I firearm.  This new firearm began life as a rifle so it's always legally a rifle, even when configured as a pistol.
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 8:03:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 11:07:58 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
All of these glock carbine enclosure kits or add on shoulder stocks would seem to be nearly useless if the expectation is that the pistol must always remain in rifle configuration.
View Quote

Nobody is saying it has to remain in rifle configuration. The question is what is it considered when it is in its pistol configuration. Would be pretty handy to be able to ccw and cross state lines with a normal pistol and then configure as a rifle back home. Basically what you are able to do with a SBR now when switching between short and normal barrels/uppers.
Link Posted: 5/31/2016 11:37:13 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


This.

My opinion, when you make an SBR you're making a new firearm, even if you started with a Title I firearm.  This new firearm began life as a rifle so it's always legally a rifle, even when configured as a pistol.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pistol > Rifle > Pistol. Configured as a pistol it's a pistol as long as it was a pistol first.

Pistol > Short Barrel Rifle > Pistol? This hasn't been answered by the ATF. That doesn't mean it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol, that just means that maybe it's still considered an SBR or maybe it's considered a pistol.

Make sense? (Obviously it's idiotic, but I mean...is that clear?)


This.

My opinion, when you make an SBR you're making a new firearm, even if you started with a Title I firearm.  This new firearm began life as a rifle so it's always legally a rifle, even when configured as a pistol.


Exactly. I see some people confusing the issue and thinking that it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol if it used to be an SBR. That doesn't make sense. It's either a pistol or an SBR at that point, but it's tax paid and registered. So either way, it's fine.
Link Posted: 6/1/2016 3:51:26 PM EDT
[#11]
I think that is the crux of the question. Normally a rifle cannot be converted to a pistol, right? However, can an SBR be temporarily a pistol or at least can it be an SBR without a stock?

I guess the same question goes for something like an MPX pistol which has been SBR'ed. Can it be changed back to a pistol, even if temporarily?

I'm still hearing all sorts of ideas on this, even in this thread.



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Quoted:


Exactly. I see some people confusing the issue and thinking that it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol if it used to be an SBR. That doesn't make sense. It's either a pistol or an SBR at that point, but it's tax paid and registered. So either way, it's fine.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pistol > Rifle > Pistol. Configured as a pistol it's a pistol as long as it was a pistol first.

Pistol > Short Barrel Rifle > Pistol? This hasn't been answered by the ATF. That doesn't mean it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol, that just means that maybe it's still considered an SBR or maybe it's considered a pistol.

Make sense? (Obviously it's idiotic, but I mean...is that clear?)


This.

My opinion, when you make an SBR you're making a new firearm, even if you started with a Title I firearm.  This new firearm began life as a rifle so it's always legally a rifle, even when configured as a pistol.


Exactly. I see some people confusing the issue and thinking that it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol if it used to be an SBR. That doesn't make sense. It's either a pistol or an SBR at that point, but it's tax paid and registered. So either way, it's fine.

Link Posted: 6/1/2016 4:02:39 PM EDT
[#12]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I think that is the crux of the question. Normally a rifle cannot be converted to a pistol, right? However, can an SBR be temporarily a pistol or at least can it be an SBR without a stock?





I guess the same question goes for something like an MPX pistol which has been SBR'ed. Can it be changed back to a pistol, even if temporarily?





I'm still hearing all sorts of ideas on this, even in this thread.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I think that is the crux of the question. Normally a rifle cannot be converted to a pistol, right? However, can an SBR be temporarily a pistol or at least can it be an SBR without a stock?





I guess the same question goes for something like an MPX pistol which has been SBR'ed. Can it be changed back to a pistol, even if temporarily?





I'm still hearing all sorts of ideas on this, even in this thread.
Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:


Pistol > Rifle > Pistol. Configured as a pistol it's a pistol as long as it was a pistol first.





Pistol > Short Barrel Rifle > Pistol? This hasn't been answered by the ATF. That doesn't mean it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol, that just means that maybe it's still considered an SBR or maybe it's considered a pistol.





Make sense? (Obviously it's idiotic, but I mean...is that clear?)






This.





My opinion, when you make an SBR you're making a new firearm, even if you started with a Title I firearm.  This new firearm began life as a rifle so it's always legally a rifle, even when configured as a pistol.






Exactly. I see some people confusing the issue and thinking that it's illegal to have it configured as a pistol if it used to be an SBR. That doesn't make sense. It's either a pistol or an SBR at that point, but it's tax paid and registered. So either way, it's fine.








 
An SBR can be "reconfigured" as to be like a pistol (remove the stock), but legally it would still be considered a rifle (SBR, specifically.)







It's the same as with a standard title 1, >16" barreled rifle.  When you remove the stock to change it out or something, it doesn't legally become a pistol even though technically it is configured as one (remember, there is no max barrel length for a pistol), they simply have a rifle with poor shouldering ability, and that's fine and legal. Otherwise anytime someone simply swapped out a stock on their rifle they'd be illegally be "making a pistol from a rifle", which of course is not the case.


 
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