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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:20:47 PM EDT
[#1]
They typically need to be removed in order to be single point threaded in the lathe. Also, it's brake, not break (sorry, pet peeve).
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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:39:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They typically need to be removed in order to be single point threaded in the lathe. Also, it's brake, not break (sorry, pet peeve). Not fixturing runs the real risk of poorly aligned threads and a device that will not attach straight. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 3:07:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fixturing up a barrel to be die threaded is not all that simple. Not fixturing runs the real risk of poorly aligned threads and a device that will not attach straight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fixturing up a barrel to be die threaded is not all that simple. Not fixturing runs the real risk of poorly aligned threads and a device that will not attach straight. Quoted:
They typically need to be removed in order to be single point threaded in the lathe. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 3:19:26 PM EDT
[#4]
It'd be foolish, and maybe even stupid, to attempt to thread a barrel by any means that doesn't guarantee centration and alignment to the bore axis.
Which is any means OTHER than on a lathe. If I ever heard of a gunsmith who would thread a barrel by any means OTHER than on a lathe, I would never give him my business and go out of my way to warn other gun owners about that HACK who thinks he's a gunsmith. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 3:29:53 PM EDT
[#5]
As a machinist I want it done as concentric with the bore as possible. Best way to get the bore to run concentric is have the barrel by itself set up in a lathe between centers or whatever spiders then cut the thread. Gunsmiths do it differently but I did it between centers with a lathe dog as it was the simplest set up for me(non precision bbl). Either way you would like the full length of the bore to be concentric with the threads. Harder to do with and odd shaped attachment connected to the barrel.
Didn't realize this is the gunsmith forum, sure you'll get better answers, though I'll leave my comment. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 6:33:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They typically need to be removed in order to be single point threaded in the lathe. Also, it's brake, not break (sorry, pet peeve). |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 6:38:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It'd be foolish, and maybe even stupid, to attempt to thread a barrel by any means that doesn't guarantee centration and alignment to the bore axis. Which is any means OTHER than on a lathe. If I ever heard of a gunsmith who would thread a barrel by any means OTHER than on a lathe, I would never give him my business and go out of my way to warn other gun owners about that HACK who thinks he's a gunsmith. I bought the threading kit and TAT( thread allignent tool) I followed the instructions and threaded like 5 barrels and screwed on the Brake. Later the brakes got changed to flash hiders. I never perminently attached the device properly to conform with the now defunct AWB....oops.... Anyway, It worked fine and never caused any problems. It was just like threading a water pipe. Maybe I was just damn lucky?.... Edited to add. https://guncarrier.com/diy-threading-barrels-2/ Link made hot. AeroE See link. This guy didn't remove the barrel?.... |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 6:47:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a gunsmith. I bought the threading kit and TAT( thread allignent tool.) I followed the instructions and threaded like 5 barrels and screwed on the Brake. It worked.fine and never caused any problems. It was just like threading a water pipe. Maybe I was just damn lucky?.... |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 6:51:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a machinist I want it done as concentric with the bore as possible. Best way to get the bore to run concentric is have the barrel by itself set up in a lathe between centers or whatever spiders then cut the thread. Gunsmiths do it differently but I did it between centers with a lathe dog as it was the simplest set up for me(non precision bbl). Either way you would like the full length of the bore to be concentric with the threads. Harder to do with and odd shaped attachment connected to the barrel. Didn't realize this is the gunsmith forum, sure you'll get better answers, though I'll leave my comment. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 7:03:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're a machinist? |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 7:14:43 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm not a professional machinist but I spent two years learning the trade in a vo-tech program run by the local college.
I know how to run a lathe, a mill, and most other machine tools. I don't currently own a lathe but I do have a knee mill. Once you have been educated by machinists, and have spent time with dial indicators and seeing what you have to do to fix what other people have done because they used a vise and a tap handle rather than have a machinist do it on a lathe, you would understand why those of us who have ANY machinist experience think that's a really BAD idea. Mount a suppressor on your rifle that you hand-threaded with a kit and I'd bet money on a baffle strike within a hundred rounds. It may be OK for a brake but it's PROBABLY not good enough for a suppressor. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 7:34:10 PM EDT
[#12]
It's not good enough for a brake, either.
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Posted: 10/22/2017 7:47:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not good enough for a brake, either. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 7:50:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a professional machinist but I spent two years learning the trade in a vo-tech program run by the local college. I know how to run a lathe, a mill, and most other machine tools. I don't currently own a lathe but I do have a knee mill. Once you have been educated by machinists, and have spent time with dial indicators and seeing what you have to do to fix what other people have done because they used a vise and a tap handle rather than have a machinist do it on a lathe, you would understand why those of us who have ANY machinist experience think that's a really BAD idea. Mount a suppressor on your rifle that you hand-threaded with a kit and I'd bet money on a baffle strike within a hundred rounds. It may be OK for a brake but it's PROBABLY not good enough for a suppressor. They do sell do it your self barrel threading kits and lots of guys use them?......... |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:25:08 PM EDT
[#15]
A bit of luck is required with that die set up. A barrel with the outer surface not concentric with the bore is going to result in junk. I doubt anyone that posts in this forum uses a die.
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:52:35 PM EDT
[#16]
In general, there are 2 ways to thread a barrel without removing it:
1) those die kits 2) a jig (or fixture) specifically designed for one type of barreled action (such as MP5) in a lathe. The lathe must also be large enough to accommodate said jig and receiver. The jigs are expensive and/or difficult to fabricate. That's why they're normally encountered at specialty gunsmith shops which are usually very selective about what models they work on. General gunsmith shops use lathes the same way a general machine shop would, and most will require barrel removal to turn "between centers". Either scenario will use single-point thread cutting, which is more precise. The precision level is totally dependant upon the machinist. Like everything else, setup is critical. Die cut threads might be good enough for a brake or flash suppressor, but they're never good enough for a sound suppressor. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 11:49:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In general, there are 2 ways to thread a barrel without removing it: 1) those die kits 2) a jig (or fixture) specifically designed for one type of barreled action (such as MP5) in a lathe. The lathe must also be large enough to accommodate said jig and receiver. The jigs are expensive and/or difficult to fabricate. That's why they're normally encountered at specialty gunsmith shops which are usually very selective about what models they work on. General gunsmith shops use lathes the same way a general machine shop would, and most will require barrel removal to turn "between centers". Either scenario will use single-point thread cutting, which is more precise. The precision level is totally dependant upon the machinist. Like everything else, setup is critical. Die cut threads might be good enough for a brake or flash suppressor, but they're never good enough for a sound suppressor. Thus..The reason for having the correct jigs for every firearm that one can be used on. The object is to turn the barrel on the bore axis.. always. Never from the barrel profile if you can help it or you are sure the barrel profile is concentric to the bore. You will know as soon as you try to get the steady rest dialed in. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 11:58:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Die cut threads might be good enough for a brake or flash suppressor, but they're never good enough for a sound suppressor. It worked perfectly on 5 rifles for that purpose and the threads look straight to the naked eye... Never gave it any thought about using a supressor at the time I did it and was unaware (until now) that the die kit is not the correct way. I wonder why the die kits are marketed and sold if they are not the correct way to thread barrels then? It seems like lots of folks use them. Check out the you tube videos.. |
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Posted: 10/23/2017 12:07:00 AM EDT
[#19]
A lot of people use them because they're a lot cheaper than a lathe.
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Posted: 10/23/2017 12:10:14 AM EDT
[#20]
That's it. Their cost is low, and most gun owners don't buy sound suppressors.
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Posted: 10/23/2017 7:08:29 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The intended purpose of me threading the barrels was to put on muzzle brakes and later on flash suppressors. It worked perfectly on 5 rifles for that purpose and the threads look straight to the naked eye... Never gave it any thought about using a supressor at the time I did it and was unaware (until now) that the die kit is not the correct way. I wonder why the die kits are marketed and sold if they are not the correct way to thread barrels then? It seems like lots of folks use them. Check out the you tube videos.. Few professional gunsmiths are willing to risk their reputation by doing a half assed job. They sell these kits for people that don't give a shit about their SKS or AK, they want something on the barrel. The kit is a way to get there, congrats on your success, many get them to work fine for their needs I'm sure. |
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Posted: 10/23/2017 10:46:38 AM EDT
[#22]
Thank you all for the replies.
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Posted: 10/23/2017 7:04:27 PM EDT
[#23]
I was considering threading the barrel on my Sub 2000 but after what you guys told me I'm not going to.
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Posted: 10/24/2017 12:03:02 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was considering threading the barrel on my Sub 2000 but after what you guys told me I'm not going to. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 11:25:20 AM EDT
[#25]
You can always pull a barrel and send it off for threading.
Some actions are easier than others. Any number of actions have used crush fits to make sure they do not come off at teh wrong time. Many military actions are this way. It takes a LOT of force to remove them the first time. Enough to damage actions that are not well supported in a fixture. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 11:50:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of people use them because they're a lot cheaper than a lathe. But for $150, one should expect both sufficient concentricity of the threads to the bore, and a squared shoulder (both important for most suppression purposes). Here is one example: "Quick and affordable: $150". https://www.dobbsdefense.com/store/services/barrel-threading/ |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 12:34:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Single point, lathe, bore dialed in to 0.0001. I try for a 3A fit.
Satisfied customers = repeat customers for other stuff = more money 
Threading with a die is no Bueno, FWIW. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 10:46:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you planning on running a suppressor? If not, and you've successfully done 5 previously with a die and TAT, then I'd say go for it. How would I know if I cut the threads good enough for a supressor with a die? Is there a chance I did? |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 10:56:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Look down the barrel and see if you can see baffles.
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Posted: 10/24/2017 11:11:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm considering getting a suppressor. How would I know if I cut the threads good enough for a supressor with a die? Is there a chance I did? |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 12:25:22 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then I would have it threaded properly. Another issue I find with die threaded muzzles is that the fit is very loose. It's not worth the risk of a baffle strike unless you plan on using a suppressor that uses really oversized baffles. Yeah I could always look down the barrel to see if i can see baffles I suppose? |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 12:46:19 AM EDT
[#32]
All silencer baffles are oversized. It's just a question of how much. If you do see that it's off center, the only way to fix the issue is to shorten and rethread the barrel (correctly), which may not be an option. I would do it right to begin with. Don't use a die.
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Posted: 10/25/2017 9:24:46 AM EDT
[#33]
I used the Die kit on a couple of FALs years ago for a customer. Guy asked me if I would do it. I said I dont do that. He said I will buy the dies and you can keep them and he paid me.
He had full knowledge it was a learning experience. They came out damn good. Wasnt that big of a deal after all. |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 10:48:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Double post.
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Posted: 10/25/2017 10:50:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All silencer baffles are oversized. It's just a question of how much. If you do see that it's off center, the only way to fix the issue is to shorten and rethread the barrel (correctly), which may not be an option. I would do it right to begin with. Don't use a die. |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 10:53:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used the Die kit on a couple of FALs years ago for a customer. Guy asked me if I would do it. I said I dont do that. He said I will buy the dies and you can keep them and he paid me. He had full knowledge it was a learning experience. They came out damn good. Wasnt that big of a deal after all. It's just like threading a water pipe. I took my time and the TAT was very useful |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 11:31:22 AM EDT
[#37]
I threaded a receiver for a barrel slightly crooked (I should have a proper tap wrench or a way to put pressure on both sides evenly). I fixed it by canting the tap the other way as I chase the threads. It was a loose fit and I think there's still a slight cant, but the rifle turned out pretty accurate and there was no setback or movements at all.
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Posted: 10/25/2017 12:54:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I cant tell that's it's crooked with the naked eye and flash suppressor. The TAT is supposed to make the die line up straight..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All silencer baffles are oversized. It's just a question of how much. If you do see that it's off center, the only way to fix the issue is to shorten and rethread the barrel (correctly), which may not be an option. I would do it right to begin with. Don't use a die. If everything is correct it will line up. If ANYTHING is off it will NOT align properly. Is the barrel slightly worn? Alignment stud of TAT may allow movement. Die worn? TAT not cut to tight thread tolerance. Movement between die cutting teeth and TAT. There are many lath setups for cutting chambers and threading barrels for actions. Some are more repeatable than others. Some involve cutting fixturing to tightly match previous cuts made on the barrel. Or using an adjustable tool like a spider to center up one end of the barrel while a collet centers the other. Or a 4 or 6 jaw check aligned to 1/10,000. Or better. You can often adjust to better than one division on any indicator. You just cannot reliable say what the alignment is any more. But it is better than 1/10,000. |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 2:10:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The issue (like many 'issues' in machining) is tolerances. If everything is correct it will line up. If ANYTHING is off it will NOT align properly. Is the barrel slightly worn? Alignment stud of TAT may allow movement. Die worn? TAT not cut to tight thread tolerance. Movement between die cutting teeth and TAT. There are many lath setups for cutting chambers and threading barrels for actions. Some are more repeatable than others. Some involve cutting fixturing to tightly match previous cuts made on the barrel. Or using an adjustable tool like a spider to center up one end of the barrel while a collet centers the other. Or a 4 or 6 jaw check aligned to 1/10,000. Or better. You can often adjust to better than one division on any indicator. You just cannot reliable say what the alignment is any more. But it is better than 1/10,000. |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 3:10:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Just like cutting a water pipe, alrighty then.
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Posted: 10/25/2017 3:34:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Understood I worked for many years in aerospace electronics and hardware. Very black things that MUST work EVERY time. And cost fantastic amounts of money to design, build, and operate. The cutting edge of technology is always green. It is the color of money. Relying on luck of the draw is not a good idea with expensive things. |
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Posted: 10/25/2017 5:08:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am NOT trying to get down on you. I worked for many years in aerospace electronics and hardware. Very black things that MUST work EVERY time. And cost fantastic amounts of money to design, build, and operate. The cutting edge of technology is always green. It is the color of money. Relying on luck of the draw is not a good idea with expensive things. It was like 15 years ago when I threaded the barrels and did it on the.advice of some guy who worked at a gun shop I used to go to. I was thinking about threading the barrels on a few other firearms( sub 2000 being one) and saw online about places that remove the barrel in order to do it . Then I thought to myself, why would you have to remove the barrel?; I didn't etc.... Anyway, it's not worth it for me to have to barrel professionally threaded on a sub 2000 , so I'll skip it... |
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Posted: 10/26/2017 8:39:06 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't think you were getting down on me. It was like 15 years ago when I threaded the barrels and did it on the.advice of some guy who worked at a gun shop I used to go to. I was thinking about threading the barrels on a few other firearms( sub 2000 being one) and saw online about places that remove the barrel in order to do it . Then I thought to myself, why would you have to remove the barrel?; I didn't etc.... Anyway, it's not worth it for me to have to barrel professionally threaded on a sub 2000 , so I'll skip it... |
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