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Posted: 4/25/2017 1:41:00 PM EDT
https://www.cmmginc.com/shop/rifle-mkg-45-pdw-45-acp-nfa/  CMMG 45ACP Banshee (Guard): AR-15 Carbine In 45 ACP That Takes Glock Mags (HD) Looks promising |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:54:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Want.
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Posted: 4/27/2017 7:23:06 PM EDT
[#2]
looks good but the retail price is $1300. Why do these things have to cost $1300 and up?
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Posted: 4/27/2017 9:32:34 PM EDT
[#3]
yeah, not sure why CMMG thinks their stuff is worth that much. This being one of them.
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Posted: 4/27/2017 9:40:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yeah, not sure why CMMG thinks their stuff is worth that much. This being one of them. 
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Posted: 4/28/2017 12:18:12 AM EDT
[#5]
I think CMMG has worked on the .45 AR concept for a few years now. At least that was a rumor that I didn't repeat back then as it was not a public piece of information as I recall.
As to what this firearm is worth, only a buyer can make that decision. I would only point out that any company spends a LOT of money in R&D and then tooling to bring a new product to market. That money has to come from profit from sales and the lower the volume of sales the higher per unit cost of that development. I doubt that sales on this rifle will be all that big compared to a .22 or 5.56mm firearm. Ford spent about the same amount of money to bring the Taurus to market as it cost to develop and built the F-117 Stealth fighter. Only 123 or so F-117's were built so they didn't have many to spread the R&D over. Meanwhile Ford as sold millions of the Taurus models so the per-unit cost of development gets pretty small. You should try to build your own fresh sheet design AR some day and then project your sales and how you will pay off all that money you spent before you even sold just one. But, you are correct, CMMG does not under price anything. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 12:55:56 AM EDT
[#6]
Very interested. I currently run an integral suppressed Oly .45acp with SRT can on a BAZ lower using GG mags. I'd be extremely interested if they made a very short pistol upper I could screw my Octane onto. Something very satisfying about lobbing 230 grains as loud as a paintball gun.
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Posted: 4/28/2017 2:04:41 AM EDT
[#7]
I am legitimately geek ed out about this gun. More in relation to the mechanism than any desire to own the gun itself. But I do have a SG-2 .45, so maybe I need one of these. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 2:34:35 PM EDT
[#8]
I think it's pricy, but its sweet looking. I think I would wait a bit to be sure it has no initial bugs or kinks that may need worked out.
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Posted: 4/29/2017 2:02:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks for the interest!
We are definitely excited to introduce our new Guard 45 acp. It features our all new Radial Delay Blowback, LRBHO and its Designed for use with Glock 21 mags. Here are a few shots of it, lots of big plans for this platform ;)          
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Posted: 4/29/2017 2:39:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Looks interesting but CMMG isn't my favorite company. I'll pass.
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Posted: 4/29/2017 3:18:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Any videos of someone shooting the pistol version yet? That would be the one I'm interested in making a SBR.
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Posted: 4/29/2017 4:52:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Obviously I know it's just gonna be coming out. But will lowers and uppers be made avail to the ones who want to build their own custom 45?
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Posted: 4/29/2017 5:05:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Looks pretty sweet. Would like to see a 10mm version as well.
My only question is if there is any advantage to this carbine over one built using a Circle10 receiver set. |
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Posted: 4/29/2017 5:18:35 PM EDT
[#14]
@CMMG
This is the thing you guys would not tell me about at Knob Creek? Cool idea but a little overpriced. Unless there is something I dont see. |
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Posted: 4/30/2017 9:53:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@CMMG It looks like the gun ships with factory Glock 13 round magazines. What are the higher capacity magazines shown in these pictures? |
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Posted: 4/30/2017 11:13:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Fascinating. Are the front of the barrel extension lugs angled as well? Or just on the bolt?
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Posted: 4/30/2017 1:12:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fascinating. Are the front of the barrel extension lugs angled as well? Or just on the bolt? |
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Posted: 4/30/2017 6:03:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, the extension lugs are not angled. I will get a graphic posted in the next few days. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:13:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Any information on PDW Stock compatibility?
In particular, the MVB ARC or the Maxim CQB stocks. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 11:19:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks pretty sweet. Would like to see a 10mm version as well.
My only question is if there is any advantage to this carbine over one built using a Circle10 receiver set. I presume they've got high-speed video of the bolt unlocking under pressure. They have achieved a 5th new operating system in a standard AR upper, after DI, gas piston, mass-delayed blowback, and bolt action. Their claim is the pressure of the cartridge forces the bolt to rotate against the bbl extension locking lugs b/c the bolt's locking lugs are angled. Presumably they've hardened both sets of lugs against wear, but how such lugs work when well lubed, or how fast they wear and what happens to the speed of unlocking when they do, is so far unknown. Once the bolt fully unlocks (essentially it never was fully locked), the pressure of the base of the cartridge pushes the bolt and the bolt carrier back against the force of the recoil spring, and basically assumes a normal blowback mode of operation. This may not be adaptable to 10x25mm Norma, due to the much higher pressures over .45" ACP. My initial thought before learning of the angled lugs of the bolt was this was some sort of inertial locking system like the Benelli, which relies on the movement of the gun to unlock. My initial impression was the gun recoils on firing, which the bolt carrier resists due to its mass. However, once your shoulder recovers, the gun goes forward, causing the bolt carrier to move slightly to the rear. Given the short cam slot on this bolt, that would force the bolt to rotate, and then rely on the residual pressure in the chamber to resume a normal blowback operation. While this works on shotguns, I'm not sure there's enough residual pressure in .45" ACP to allow this to actually work. Released high-speed footage of their new action will tell the tale. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 12:29:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I think. It doesn't use gas operation like Rudy's DI guns, and it's not a mass-delayed blowback. It's either an inertial unlocking system like the Benelli, which I thought it was @ first and it might actually be, or what they claim, the angled cuts on the locking lugs of the bolt causing it to unlock from the pressure of the base of the cartridge against the bolt. I presume they've got high-speed video of the bolt unlocking under pressure. They have achieved a 5th new operating system in a standard AR upper, after DI, gas piston, mass-delayed blowback, and bolt action. Their claim is the pressure of the cartridge forces the bolt to rotate against the bbl extension locking lugs b/c the bolt's locking lugs are angled. Presumably they've hardened both sets of lugs against wear, but how such lugs work when well lubed, or how fast they wear and what happens to the speed of unlocking when they do, is so far unknown. Once the bolt fully unlocks (essentially it never was fully locked), the pressure of the base of the cartridge pushes the bolt and the bolt carrier back against the force of the recoil spring, and basically assumes a normal blowback mode of operation. This may not be adaptable to 10x25mm Norma, due to the much higher pressures over .45" ACP. My initial thought before learning of the angled lugs of the bolt was this was some sort of inertial locking system like the Benelli, which relies on the movement of the gun to unlock. My initial impression was the gun recoils on firing, which the bolt carrier resists due to its mass. However, once your shoulder recovers, the gun goes forward, causing the bolt carrier to move slightly to the rear. Given the short cam slot on this bolt, that would force the bolt to rotate, and then rely on the residual pressure in the chamber to resume a normal blowback operation. While this works on shotguns, I'm not sure there's enough residual pressure in .45" ACP to allow this to actually work. Released high-speed footage of their new action will tell the tale. Because of the angled lugs, reward pressure causes the bolt to rotate against the bbl extension. As it rotates, the cam pin moves in it's slot which makes the carrier move backward. Once fully unlocked, the BCG moves as normal. Almost a 'reverse' of the normal AR unlocking sequence; instead of the rearward movement of the carrier rotating the cam and unlocking the bolt, the bolt rotates and forces the carrier to move back first. Pretty neat. I assume the round head of the cam pin allows it to 'roll' over the recess in the receiver versus a rectangle shape which would probably bind. Some flavor of roller cam would probably also work well with this type of setup. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 2:47:47 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm rattling my head trying to think of another gun that used sliding parts @ an angle to delay blowback. The closest I'm thinking of is the Blish lock, which claimed resistance by sliding two dissimilar metals against each other, but was found later to be simple mass-delayed blowback. I want to say maybe there was a French submachine gun, but the only one I can think of just had the bolt @ a slight angle to the bore, not using sliding parts.
This system has been mooted before, but if they've got it working, bully to them. It's pretty slick (well, actually the opposite), but I guess the long term concern is wear. We'll see how long the warranty is on the bolts, and what the replacement policy/recommendation is. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 3:12:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's pretty slick (well, actually the opposite), but I guess the long term concern is wear. We'll see how long the warranty is on the bolts, and what the replacement policy/recommendation is. 
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Posted: 5/1/2017 3:42:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm rattling my head trying to think of another gun that used sliding parts @ an angle to delay blowback. The closest I'm thinking of is the Blish lock, which claimed resistance by sliding two dissimilar metals against each other, but was found later to be simple mass-delayed blowback. I want to say maybe there was a French submachine gun, but the only one I can think of just had the bolt @ a slight angle to the bore, not using sliding parts. This system has been mooted before, but if they've got it working, bully to them. It's pretty slick (well, actually the opposite), but I guess the long term concern is wear. We'll see how long the warranty is on the bolts, and what the replacement policy/recommendation is. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 4:05:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I'm looking at this correctly, upon firing, the bolt thrust cams the bolt on the extension lugs, causing it to rotate due to the angled lugs, which in turn accelerates the carrier to the rear because of the cam pin and (much shallower than normal) cam pin slot.
Does that sound right? The barrel extension also has angled lugs to match up with the bolt, correct? Any issues with the barrel extension trying to rotate in the upper against the index pin? No, apparently it's a standard bbl extension, albeit may be of a specially hardened steel to cope w/ the wear. Unknown, but that's certainly a possibility. Interestingly, the rotation of the bolt is slowed by the mass of the carrier and the buffer. It seems a very finely balanced system; I wonder how it would fare w/ say, .45" Super loads. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 4:21:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'm looking at this correctly, upon firing, the bolt thrust cams the bolt on the extension lugs, causing it to rotate due to the angled lugs, which in turn accelerates the carrier to the rear because of the cam pin and (much shallower than normal) cam pin slot. Does that sound right? One thing to add, when the round is fired, and the bolt begins rotating, it is pushing directly against the carrier for a short distance. We incorporated this to reduce stress on the cam pin. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 4:24:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:One thing to add, when the round is fired, and the bolt begins rotating, it is pushing directly against the carrier for a short distance. We incorporated this to reduce stress on the cam pin. Now that you've got a non-gas, delayed locking system that doesn't require massive carrier/buffer weights, have you given any thought to a shorter, bufferless action system? Something to compete with all of the blowback subgun designs with folding stocks like the UMP, LWRC SMG45, etc? |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 4:59:00 PM EDT
[#31]
what about 9mm?
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Posted: 5/1/2017 5:01:14 PM EDT
[#32]
This platform really opens up a lot of doors for future development. Stay tuned, lots of stuff planned for next 2 years :D
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Posted: 5/1/2017 5:43:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, I was wondering if there was an extra step on the bolt/carrier to take the bolt thrust once the load was off of the lugs.
Now that you've got a non-gas, delayed locking system that doesn't require massive carrier/buffer weights, have you given any thought to a shorter, bufferless action system? Something to compete with all of the blowback subgun designs with folding stocks like the UMP, LWRC SMG45, etc? 
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Posted: 5/1/2017 5:48:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm rattling my head trying to think of another gun that used sliding parts @ an angle to delay blowback. The closest I'm thinking of is the Blish lock, which claimed resistance by sliding two dissimilar metals against each other, but was found later to be simple mass-delayed blowback. I want to say maybe there was a French submachine gun, but the only one I can think of just had the bolt @ a slight angle to the bore, not using sliding parts. This system has been mooted before, but if they've got it working, bully to them. It's pretty slick (well, actually the opposite), but I guess the long term concern is wear. We'll see how long the warranty is on the bolts, and what the replacement policy/recommendation is. The bolt tilts up, not unlike an upside down FAL. The "locking shoulders" are angled, so the bolt slides along them and is merely delayed, instead of being locked. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 6:09:35 PM EDT
[#35]
I would not completely dismiss the Blish Lock, altough it is obviously not a locking mechanism.
I have fired the same Thompson 1928 with and without an active Blish mechanism. The rate of fire with the Blish mechanism is noticeably, although not dramatically, slower. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 6:11:26 PM EDT
[#36]
When you "deactivated" the Blish lock, did you take it out of the gun, removing mass from the bolt?
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Posted: 5/1/2017 6:15:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you "deactivated" the Blish lock, did you take it out of the gun, removing mass from the bolt? These are the lugs which interact with the race ways and delay shoulder in the receiver. So yes, the reciprocating mass was slightly lighter. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 8:39:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what about 9mm? This - any plans for 9mm? Will this work with a standard AR lower? How about FA with a registered receiver? |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 9:45:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@CMMG Will this work with a standard AR lower? How about FA with a registered receiver? Couldn't say with any certainty, we have only tested this with our dedicated 45 lower. We will anounce new calibers as they are completed. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 9:56:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryCouldn't say with any certainty, we have only tested this with our dedicated 45 lower. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:01:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But it will at least bolt up to a standard lower right? It certainly looks like it would. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:03:33 PM EDT
[#42]
It should bolt up to a standard lower. Dunno if their proprietary carrier will trip the full-auto sear, but if you had to, you could weld one up. Dunno if it'll feed from Uzi or Rudy's mags, though.
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:05:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It should bolt up to a standard lower. Dunno if their proprietary carrier will trip the full-auto sear, but if you had to, you could weld one up. Dunno if it'll feed from Uzi or Rudy's mags, though.
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:07:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It should bolt up to a standard lower. Dunno if their proprietary carrier will trip the full-auto sear, but if you had to, you could weld one up. Dunno if it'll feed from Uzi or Rudy's mags, though. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:13:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The carrier is standard with the exception of the cam pin path. Does that mean the bolt is standard as well w/ the exception of the angled bolt lugs? |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:15:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You just made some FA folks real happy. Does that mean the bolt is standard as well w/ the exception of the angled bolt lugs? The plan was to keep as much commonality with standard 556 as possible. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:16:19 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It should bolt up to a standard lower. Dunno if their proprietary carrier will trip the full-auto sear, but if you had to, you could weld one up. Dunno if it'll feed from Uzi or Rudy's mags, though. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:33:59 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup :)
The plan was to keep as much commonality with standard 556 as possible. Y'all are to be commended. The two concerns are .45" Super - no issues if it won't run, no flies on you if it doesn't; the other is wear. How many rounds have you run, and what did the bolt & bbl extension look like afterwards? |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:50:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will you be selling complete BCGs? B/c if you do, you could probably have a lot of your R&D done for you in figgering out the angles for a particular cartridge that work w/ that particular cam slot in the bolt carrier. Y'all are to be commended. The two concerns are .45" Super - no issues if it won't run, no flies on you if it doesn't; the other is wear. How many rounds have you run, and what did the bolt & bbl extension look like afterwards? As for the extension, our in house endurance goal was met and surpassed. While the extension does exhibit some wear, it wasn't significant and is still fully operational after thousands upon thousnds of rounds. We will continue to push the test rifles to failure in an ongoing effort to identify any weak link. We have already begun testing with the 45 super ;) |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 10:53:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We have already begun testing with the 45 super ;) |
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