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Posted: 7/20/2011 7:09:55 PM EDT
I WAS JUST TOLD (11:00PM EAST TIME) THAT THERE IS A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT OF ELITE AMMUNITION WHICH STATED THAT .223 IS NOW A PISTOL CARTRIGE AND THE BARNES BULLET T6 ET.AL.
(AND ALL LAWS REGARDING) IS SUBJECT TO LAWS GOVERNING PISTOL AMMUNITION.
THIS WAS POSTED TODAY AT 0955 ON THE WEBSITE USACARRY.COM

SOMEONE PLEASE CLARIFY.
IS THIS TRUE? OR IS SOMEONE TRYING TO GET A RUN ON AMMO?

THIS A HOAX?


CHECK IT OUT.

Link Posted: 7/20/2011 7:41:50 PM EDT
[#1]

First I have heard of this

If true I may have to put a Kel Tec PLR16 on lay away tomorrow
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 9:32:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Someone posted about this a week ago. The president of Elite ammo posted this on a lot of forums, and apparently he was the only one that the ATF notified. Apparently he also has a long history of being a liar, so I'd take his word with a grain of salt.
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 10:21:36 PM EDT
[#3]
What difference does it make if it's pistol or rifle?  I'm completely in the dark on this one.
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 5:10:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
What difference does it make if it's pistol or rifle?  I'm completely in the dark on this one.


It doesn't make a difference. There is no pistol or rifle cartridge according to the ATF.

The way the law is worded, if the ammo is intended to be fired from a rifle, you must be 18 to purchase it. If the ammo is intended to be fired from a pistol, you must be 21 to purchase it. The difference lies solely in the intended use of the end customer, which is why some chain stores ask if the ammo is to be used in a pistol or a rifle. Other stores just assume the most common use when IDing customers.

Unless there are some state or local laws that address the difference between rifle/pistol ammo, there is no difference between the two, and the ATF has not ruled .223 to be pistol ammo. Ammo is just ammo.

Quoted:
If true I may have to put a Kel Tec PLR16 on lay away tomorrow


Why would that affect your purchase of a 5.56 pistol? What difference does it make?
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 6:20:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What difference does it make if it's pistol or rifle?  I'm completely in the dark on this one.


It doesn't make a difference. There is no pistol or rifle cartridge according to the ATF.

The way the law is worded, if the ammo is intended to be fired from a rifle, you must be 18 to purchase it. If the ammo is intended to be fired from a pistol, you must be 21 to purchase it. The difference lies solely in the intended use of the end customer, which is why some chain stores ask if the ammo is to be used in a pistol or a rifle. Other stores just assume the most common use when IDing customers.

Unless there are some state or local laws that address the difference between rifle/pistol ammo, there is no difference between the two, and the ATF has not ruled .223 to be pistol ammo. Ammo is just ammo.

Quoted:
If true I may have to put a Kel Tec PLR16 on lay away tomorrow


Why would that affect your purchase of a 5.56 pistol? What difference does it make?


I miss read the post at 11:30 at night.  I saw .223 ammo ban and ATF ruling on pistol ammo and my mind went back to the AWB of 94 and the BATF "sporting purposes" ruling in 1993 which banned the HK SP89, Tommy Gun pistol, and various full weight AR15 pistols.



Still makes sense to buy a PLR 16 though




Link Posted: 7/21/2011 6:30:45 AM EDT
[#6]
I'm thinking the concern would be around the availability of the green tip penetrating ammunition and that this ruling would make it illegal for civilian purchase.  Handgun penetrators or "armor piercing" are illegal for civilian use is it not?

(FWIW - I understand that the green tip penetrators are not armor piercing)
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 7:01:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
I'm thinking the concern would be around the availability of the green tip penetrating ammunition and that this ruling would make it illegal for civilian purchase.  Handgun penetrators or "armor piercing" are illegal for civilian use is it not?

(FWIW - I understand that the green tip penetrators are not armor piercing)



That is what I got out of the elite ammo posting.  Because most of the post centers on the bullet type not so much the cartridge.  Just like how "Black talon" or 5.7 AP rounds cannot be sold to the public any more.

If this is true I smell the whiff of Cass Sunstien (Obama's "nudge" guy) all over this one.  
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 3:20:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Elite ammo is full of it.
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 7:10:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Elite ammo is full of it.


+1
Link Posted: 7/30/2011 10:18:47 AM EDT
[#10]
Black Talon was never outlawed. Olin withrew it from the market. Kind of anyway. They just took the black off and renamed it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2011 11:01:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Elite ammo is full of it.


Nice job being wrong.  Elite had to discontinue production of their T-6 Cartridge because it utilizes a solid bullet and can be fired from an handgun.  Elite produced the projectile in .224, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC and has stopped production.

Keep in mind, this has to do with the projectile composition and not the caliber.  

ETA: 3rd party link for verification

Link Posted: 7/30/2011 11:47:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Black Talon was never outlawed. Olin withrew it from the market. Kind of anyway. They just took the black off and renamed it.



Yep.  I still have some Black Talon ammo too, given to me after the "ban".    There is better ammo on the market today anyway.  I always like dthe rumor that BT's would penetrate body armor ala "cop killers".
Link Posted: 7/31/2011 3:23:12 AM EDT
[#13]
They actually kept the moly coating for a little while.  I had found a bunch of the original Ranger SXTs in .40 S&W at a gun shop a while back and bought some to use as my carry ammo.
Today, though, the SXT bullet lacks the moly coating (because that fad is over) and has two more "talons"
Link Posted: 7/31/2011 1:28:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Elite ammo is full of it.


Nice job being wrong.  Elite had to discontinue production of their T-6 Cartridge because it utilizes a solid bullet and can be fired from an handgun.  Elite produced the projectile in .224, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC and has stopped production.

Keep in mind, this has to do with the projectile composition and not the caliber.  

ETA: 3rd party link for verification



One guy over stepped his bounds its still bs on every other part. Your article says there is no change to .223 or 5.56 ammo. He just stepped too close to the making or armor piercing ammo for the civilian market.
Link Posted: 8/1/2011 4:27:58 PM EDT
[#15]
My gun club allows 5.56/223 on the pistol range under pistol caliber carbines.
Link Posted: 8/2/2011 9:49:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 1:21:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Goddamn there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread.

The laws on AP ammo only apply to projectiles that can be used in a pistol. Note I said projectile, not cartridge. such projectiles are primarily restricted from being made completely from, or having cores composed completely of, steel, tungsten, brass, and several other listed materials.

.224" projectiles have been considered "suitable for use in a pistol" for a long time I think, according to the ATF. 7.62/.311 Soviet bullets were reclassified this way in the '90s, hence no more Soviet surplus all-steel core 7.62x39.

It appears that Elite Ammunition got in trouble because they cannot read the law. They made bullets that were completely brass in .224" diameter and sold them. Even sold them loaded in 5.7x28mm, eliminating any "it's not made for use in a pistol" arguement. This brought the issue to the ATFs attention.

Barnes also makes a brass solid in .224", thus I assume they cannot read either. I expect them to discontinue that projectile shortly.

The law on this matter is clear amd simply written. A child can comprehend it. Everyone in this thread needs to read US Code, Title 18, §921(A), (17). It's like, three short paragraphs long. Read it.

A bullet of M855/SS109 construction is not AP ammo in the eyes of the law regardless of what diameter it is or what cartridge you load it into. Period.

Don't lathe bullets from steel or brass in a diameter suited for pistol cartridges. Doing so can send you to Federal prison.

TR85.


WTG TR85 !
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 5:08:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Goddamn there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread.

The laws on AP ammo only apply to projectiles that can be used in a pistol. Note I said projectile, not cartridge. such projectiles are primarily restricted from being made completely from, or having cores composed completely of, steel, tungsten, brass, and several other listed materials.

.224" projectiles have been considered "suitable for use in a pistol" for a long time I think, according to the ATF. 7.62/.311 Soviet bullets were reclassified this way in the '90s, hence no more Soviet surplus all-steel core 7.62x39.

It appears that Elite Ammunition got in trouble because they cannot read the law. They made bullets that were completely brass in .224" diameter and sold them. Even sold them loaded in 5.7x28mm, eliminating any "it's not made for use in a pistol" arguement. This brought the issue to the ATFs attention.

Barnes also makes a brass solid in .224", thus I assume they cannot read either. I expect them to discontinue that projectile shortly.

The law on this matter is clear amd simply written. A child can comprehend it. Everyone in this thread needs to read US Code, Title 18, §921(A), (17). It's like, three short paragraphs long. Read it.

A bullet of M855/SS109 construction is not AP ammo in the eyes of the law regardless of what diameter it is or what cartridge you load it into. Period.

Don't lathe bullets from steel or brass in a diameter suited for pistol cartridges. Doing so can send you to Federal prison.

TR85.


WTG TR85 !


I thought barnes made sold copper not solid brass projectiles.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 5:27:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 5:42:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Just a question. How are those of us not versed in metallurgy to know what a bullet is made of? The Midway add doesn't say what they are made from, the Barnes web site has them listed as a copper/zinc alloy. Should we just assume anything with an alloy isn't allowed?
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 12:09:22 PM EDT
[#21]



Quoted:


Just a question. How are those of us not versed in metallurgy to know what a bullet is made of? The Midway add doesn't say what they are made from, the Barnes web site has them listed as a copper/zinc alloy. Should we just assume anything with an alloy isn't allowed?


Copper + zinc = brass, brass = no handgun loads.



 
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 12:51:34 PM EDT
[#22]
5.56/223 has been considered a pistol cartridge since soon after the "cop-killer bullet" law on handgun "AP" ammo went into effect, couple decades or more.  T-C had 223 barrels for Contenders at the time the law was passed.

If it shocks you that 5.56 is considered "handgun" ammo, you'll probably be floored to know that 7.62x51/308 Winchester is as well.
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 1:51:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 1:53:48 PM EDT
[#24]
If .223 does becoem a "pistol ammo" doesn't that make SS109 projectiles illegal?
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 2:17:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 2:23:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 6:05:20 PM EDT
[#27]



Quoted:



Quoted:

If .223 does becoem a "pistol ammo" doesn't that make SS109 projectiles illegal?




No... I'm just going to save the following to my desktop so I can quickly post it the 25,000 times a day someone asks that:





An AP projectile is one with a core constructed entirely from steel, brass, tungsten, etc. There are a few other details, but that is the heart of the law.



Is the core of an SS109/M855 projectile entirely steel?



No. Depending on who you listen to (FN or the DoD), it's either a partially lead, partially steel core, or an all lead core with a steel "penetrator" on the nose (neither definition is incorrect, just different ways to look at it). Either way, the core is not all steel.



Period. End. Stop. M855/SS109 is not AP. It's that simple. Not AP, not AP, not AP.



TR85.


So does that means it not AP?






 
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