User Panel
Posted: 7/20/2011 7:09:55 PM EDT
I WAS JUST TOLD (11:00PM EAST TIME) THAT THERE IS A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT OF ELITE AMMUNITION WHICH STATED THAT .223 IS NOW A PISTOL CARTRIGE AND THE BARNES BULLET T6 ET.AL.
(AND ALL LAWS REGARDING) IS SUBJECT TO LAWS GOVERNING PISTOL AMMUNITION. THIS WAS POSTED TODAY AT 0955 ON THE WEBSITE USACARRY.COM SOMEONE PLEASE CLARIFY. IS THIS TRUE? OR IS SOMEONE TRYING TO GET A RUN ON AMMO? THIS A HOAX? CHECK IT OUT. |
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First I have heard of this If true I may have to put a Kel Tec PLR16 on lay away tomorrow |
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Someone posted about this a week ago. The president of Elite ammo posted this on a lot of forums, and apparently he was the only one that the ATF notified. Apparently he also has a long history of being a liar, so I'd take his word with a grain of salt.
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What difference does it make if it's pistol or rifle? I'm completely in the dark on this one.
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Quoted:
What difference does it make if it's pistol or rifle? I'm completely in the dark on this one. It doesn't make a difference. There is no pistol or rifle cartridge according to the ATF. The way the law is worded, if the ammo is intended to be fired from a rifle, you must be 18 to purchase it. If the ammo is intended to be fired from a pistol, you must be 21 to purchase it. The difference lies solely in the intended use of the end customer, which is why some chain stores ask if the ammo is to be used in a pistol or a rifle. Other stores just assume the most common use when IDing customers. Unless there are some state or local laws that address the difference between rifle/pistol ammo, there is no difference between the two, and the ATF has not ruled .223 to be pistol ammo. Ammo is just ammo. Quoted:
If true I may have to put a Kel Tec PLR16 on lay away tomorrow Why would that affect your purchase of a 5.56 pistol? What difference does it make? |
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Quoted:
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What difference does it make if it's pistol or rifle? I'm completely in the dark on this one. It doesn't make a difference. There is no pistol or rifle cartridge according to the ATF. The way the law is worded, if the ammo is intended to be fired from a rifle, you must be 18 to purchase it. If the ammo is intended to be fired from a pistol, you must be 21 to purchase it. The difference lies solely in the intended use of the end customer, which is why some chain stores ask if the ammo is to be used in a pistol or a rifle. Other stores just assume the most common use when IDing customers. Unless there are some state or local laws that address the difference between rifle/pistol ammo, there is no difference between the two, and the ATF has not ruled .223 to be pistol ammo. Ammo is just ammo. Quoted:
If true I may have to put a Kel Tec PLR16 on lay away tomorrow Why would that affect your purchase of a 5.56 pistol? What difference does it make? I miss read the post at 11:30 at night. I saw .223 ammo ban and ATF ruling on pistol ammo and my mind went back to the AWB of 94 and the BATF "sporting purposes" ruling in 1993 which banned the HK SP89, Tommy Gun pistol, and various full weight AR15 pistols. Still makes sense to buy a PLR 16 though |
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I'm thinking the concern would be around the availability of the green tip penetrating ammunition and that this ruling would make it illegal for civilian purchase. Handgun penetrators or "armor piercing" are illegal for civilian use is it not?
(FWIW - I understand that the green tip penetrators are not armor piercing) |
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I'm thinking the concern would be around the availability of the green tip penetrating ammunition and that this ruling would make it illegal for civilian purchase. Handgun penetrators or "armor piercing" are illegal for civilian use is it not? (FWIW - I understand that the green tip penetrators are not armor piercing) That is what I got out of the elite ammo posting. Because most of the post centers on the bullet type not so much the cartridge. Just like how "Black talon" or 5.7 AP rounds cannot be sold to the public any more. If this is true I smell the whiff of Cass Sunstien (Obama's "nudge" guy) all over this one. |
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Black Talon was never outlawed. Olin withrew it from the market. Kind of anyway. They just took the black off and renamed it.
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Elite ammo is full of it. Nice job being wrong. Elite had to discontinue production of their T-6 Cartridge because it utilizes a solid bullet and can be fired from an handgun. Elite produced the projectile in .224, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC and has stopped production. Keep in mind, this has to do with the projectile composition and not the caliber. ETA: 3rd party link for verification |
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Quoted:
Black Talon was never outlawed. Olin withrew it from the market. Kind of anyway. They just took the black off and renamed it. Yep. I still have some Black Talon ammo too, given to me after the "ban". There is better ammo on the market today anyway. I always like dthe rumor that BT's would penetrate body armor ala "cop killers". |
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They actually kept the moly coating for a little while. I had found a bunch of the original Ranger SXTs in .40 S&W at a gun shop a while back and bought some to use as my carry ammo.
Today, though, the SXT bullet lacks the moly coating (because that fad is over) and has two more "talons" |
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Quoted:
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Elite ammo is full of it. Nice job being wrong. Elite had to discontinue production of their T-6 Cartridge because it utilizes a solid bullet and can be fired from an handgun. Elite produced the projectile in .224, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC and has stopped production. Keep in mind, this has to do with the projectile composition and not the caliber. ETA: 3rd party link for verification One guy over stepped his bounds its still bs on every other part. Your article says there is no change to .223 or 5.56 ammo. He just stepped too close to the making or armor piercing ammo for the civilian market. |
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My gun club allows 5.56/223 on the pistol range under pistol caliber carbines.
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Goddamn there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread.
The laws on AP ammo only apply to projectiles that can be used in a pistol. Note I said projectile, not cartridge. such projectiles are primarily restricted from being made completely from, or having cores composed completely of, steel, tungsten, brass, and several other listed materials. .224" projectiles have been considered "suitable for use in a pistol" for a long time I think, according to the ATF. 7.62/.311 Soviet bullets were reclassified this way in the '90s, hence no more Soviet surplus all-steel core 7.62x39. It appears that Elite Ammunition got in trouble because they cannot read the law. They made bullets that were completely brass in .224" diameter and sold them. Even sold them loaded in 5.7x28mm, eliminating any "it's not made for use in a pistol" arguement. This brought the issue to the ATFs attention. Barnes also makes a brass solid in .224", thus I assume they cannot read either. I expect them to discontinue that projectile shortly. The law on this matter is clear and simply written. A child can comprehend it. Everyone in this thread needs to read US Code, Title 18, §921(A), (17). It's like, three short paragraphs long. Read it. A bullet of M855/SS109 construction is not AP ammo in the eyes of the law regardless of what diameter it is or what cartridge you load it into. Period. Don't lathe bullets from steel or brass in a diameter suited for pistol cartridges. Doing so can send you to Federal prison. TR85. |
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Quoted:
Goddamn there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread. The laws on AP ammo only apply to projectiles that can be used in a pistol. Note I said projectile, not cartridge. such projectiles are primarily restricted from being made completely from, or having cores composed completely of, steel, tungsten, brass, and several other listed materials. .224" projectiles have been considered "suitable for use in a pistol" for a long time I think, according to the ATF. 7.62/.311 Soviet bullets were reclassified this way in the '90s, hence no more Soviet surplus all-steel core 7.62x39. It appears that Elite Ammunition got in trouble because they cannot read the law. They made bullets that were completely brass in .224" diameter and sold them. Even sold them loaded in 5.7x28mm, eliminating any "it's not made for use in a pistol" arguement. This brought the issue to the ATFs attention. Barnes also makes a brass solid in .224", thus I assume they cannot read either. I expect them to discontinue that projectile shortly. The law on this matter is clear amd simply written. A child can comprehend it. Everyone in this thread needs to read US Code, Title 18, §921(A), (17). It's like, three short paragraphs long. Read it. A bullet of M855/SS109 construction is not AP ammo in the eyes of the law regardless of what diameter it is or what cartridge you load it into. Period. Don't lathe bullets from steel or brass in a diameter suited for pistol cartridges. Doing so can send you to Federal prison. TR85. WTG TR85 ! |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Goddamn there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread. The laws on AP ammo only apply to projectiles that can be used in a pistol. Note I said projectile, not cartridge. such projectiles are primarily restricted from being made completely from, or having cores composed completely of, steel, tungsten, brass, and several other listed materials. .224" projectiles have been considered "suitable for use in a pistol" for a long time I think, according to the ATF. 7.62/.311 Soviet bullets were reclassified this way in the '90s, hence no more Soviet surplus all-steel core 7.62x39. It appears that Elite Ammunition got in trouble because they cannot read the law. They made bullets that were completely brass in .224" diameter and sold them. Even sold them loaded in 5.7x28mm, eliminating any "it's not made for use in a pistol" arguement. This brought the issue to the ATFs attention. Barnes also makes a brass solid in .224", thus I assume they cannot read either. I expect them to discontinue that projectile shortly. The law on this matter is clear amd simply written. A child can comprehend it. Everyone in this thread needs to read US Code, Title 18, §921(A), (17). It's like, three short paragraphs long. Read it. A bullet of M855/SS109 construction is not AP ammo in the eyes of the law regardless of what diameter it is or what cartridge you load it into. Period. Don't lathe bullets from steel or brass in a diameter suited for pistol cartridges. Doing so can send you to Federal prison. TR85. WTG TR85 ! I thought barnes made sold copper not solid brass projectiles. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Goddamn there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread. The laws on AP ammo only apply to projectiles that can be used in a pistol. Note I said projectile, not cartridge. such projectiles are primarily restricted from being made completely from, or having cores composed completely of, steel, tungsten, brass, and several other listed materials. .224" projectiles have been considered "suitable for use in a pistol" for a long time I think, according to the ATF. 7.62/.311 Soviet bullets were reclassified this way in the '90s, hence no more Soviet surplus all-steel core 7.62x39. It appears that Elite Ammunition got in trouble because they cannot read the law. They made bullets that were completely brass in .224" diameter and sold them. Even sold them loaded in 5.7x28mm, eliminating any "it's not made for use in a pistol" arguement. This brought the issue to the ATFs attention. Barnes also makes a brass solid in .224", thus I assume they cannot read either. I expect them to discontinue that projectile shortly. The law on this matter is clear amd simply written. A child can comprehend it. Everyone in this thread needs to read US Code, Title 18, §921(A), (17). It's like, three short paragraphs long. Read it. A bullet of M855/SS109 construction is not AP ammo in the eyes of the law regardless of what diameter it is or what cartridge you load it into. Period. Don't lathe bullets from steel or brass in a diameter suited for pistol cartridges. Doing so can send you to Federal prison. TR85. WTG TR85 ! I thought barnes made sold copper not solid brass projectiles. They make both. There is no legal issue with solid copper bullets like the TSX... their .224 brass solid, though, is trouble. http://www.tinyurl.com/3pnwq9n http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=918837 TR85. |
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Just a question. How are those of us not versed in metallurgy to know what a bullet is made of? The Midway add doesn't say what they are made from, the Barnes web site has them listed as a copper/zinc alloy. Should we just assume anything with an alloy isn't allowed?
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Quoted: Just a question. How are those of us not versed in metallurgy to know what a bullet is made of? The Midway add doesn't say what they are made from, the Barnes web site has them listed as a copper/zinc alloy. Should we just assume anything with an alloy isn't allowed? Copper + zinc = brass, brass = no handgun loads. |
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5.56/223 has been considered a pistol cartridge since soon after the "cop-killer bullet" law on handgun "AP" ammo went into effect, couple decades or more. T-C had 223 barrels for Contenders at the time the law was passed.
If it shocks you that 5.56 is considered "handgun" ammo, you'll probably be floored to know that 7.62x51/308 Winchester is as well. |
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Quoted:
5.56/223 has been considered a pistol cartridge since soon after the "cop-killer bullet" law on handgun "AP" ammo went into effect, couple decades or more. T-C had 223 barrels for Contenders at the time the law was passed. While I do not recall what the year was it happened, what you said matches my understanding... .223/5.56 has been a pistol cartridge (with regard to the law in question) for longer than I have been alive. If it shocks you that 5.56 is considered "handgun" ammo, you'll probably be floored to know that 7.62x51/308 Winchester is as well.
And .45-70. If anyone makes a pistol in it, don't make brass bullets for it. TC alone makes pistols in a shitload of "rifle" calibers. I hate this law... It's stupid as hell. But that doesn't change the fact it's not actually that complicated. TR85. |
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If .223 does becoem a "pistol ammo" doesn't that make SS109 projectiles illegal?
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Quoted:
Just a question. How are those of us not versed in metallurgy to know what a bullet is made of? The Midway add doesn't say what they are made from, the Barnes web site has them listed as a copper/zinc alloy. Should we just assume anything with an alloy isn't allowed? Holy shit, someone actually asking a logical question... That's quite rare on this particular subject. Basically, someone at Barnes should be in deep shit for making those bullets. They're obviously illegal and, while I cannot fault other people for being a bit fuzzy on what constitutes brass/etc, the fact is that Barnes is a licensed ammo maker (well, I sure as hell hope they are). It's their job to figure this shit out. And the ATF is a phone call away if anything is unclear. Now it's possible they did call and ask, and some herpy-derp at the ATF told them totally false stuff. Might get them out of any legal trouble, but they should still know better. The law is simple. While I am not an attorney and should not be relied on for legal advice, I will throw out there that, as a consumer, you shouldn't get in trouble buying Barnes bullets. I'd expect, if the ATF found you had them, and actually managed to read the law themselves, they'd just demand you hand them over. I've seen them do that with similar shouldn't-have-been-made things an unwitting consumer bought. That said, if you pissed them off enough, they might go full retard on you. But a really good way to go straight to prison (nearly) would be to start lathing your own .224" bullets from brass. That kinda kills the "I didn't know better" thing... Buying a box of bullets from a large company that has a federal license is a bit different than making bullets yourself, in spirit, if not by the letter of the law. Barnes might avoid legal fallout, but other, smaller companies and individuals are playing with fire when they do this. I actually like Barnes a lot. Their all copper TSX bullets are the shiznit. But they're going to get their pee-pee slapped making those Barnes brass solids in .224. I hope some retarded ATF agent told them they could, and they have it in writing. And they'll probably still be told to stop soon, once the ATF gets its shit together on this issue. TR85. |
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If .223 does becoem a "pistol ammo" doesn't that make SS109 projectiles illegal? No... I'm just going to save the following to my desktop so I can quickly post it the 25,000 times a day someone asks that: An AP projectile is one with a core constructed entirely from steel, brass, tungsten, etc. There are a few other details, but that is the heart of the law. Is the core of an SS109/M855 projectile entirely steel? No. Depending on who you listen to (FN or the DoD), it's either a partially lead, partially steel core, or an all lead core with a steel "penetrator" on the nose (neither definition is incorrect, just different ways to look at it). Either way, the core is not all steel. Period. End. Stop. M855/SS109 is not AP. It's that simple. Not AP, not AP, not AP. TR85. |
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Quoted: Quoted: If .223 does becoem a "pistol ammo" doesn't that make SS109 projectiles illegal? No... I'm just going to save the following to my desktop so I can quickly post it the 25,000 times a day someone asks that: An AP projectile is one with a core constructed entirely from steel, brass, tungsten, etc. There are a few other details, but that is the heart of the law. Is the core of an SS109/M855 projectile entirely steel? No. Depending on who you listen to (FN or the DoD), it's either a partially lead, partially steel core, or an all lead core with a steel "penetrator" on the nose (neither definition is incorrect, just different ways to look at it). Either way, the core is not all steel. Period. End. Stop. M855/SS109 is not AP. It's that simple. Not AP, not AP, not AP. TR85. So does that means it not AP? |
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