What are your thoughts on locking bars vs bolts and will we see more of these in safes in the future?

As far as I know the two companies using locking bars in commercial gun safes is Liberty and Browning. Liberty uses them in the low end stuff while Browning has taken the opposite approach.

I haven't seen Browning's lockwork but I have seen what Liberty is using. The bar is a solid piece with teeth cut in it. These teeth extend through slots in the door into the area behind the door jamb of the safe. This should make a more pry-resistant door since there are no locking bolts bolted to interior framework or moving cam assembly.

In theory I like the idea but wonder what the industry thinks as a whole.

Is anything safe from a sawzall given enough time?

Nope.

But that's not what I'm asking.

Sawzall!? Try a cordless grinder.

FINALLY!  An innovation from gun safe manufacturers!  I'm telling you, these guys are at the forefront of security.

Or I could tell you that square bolt safes have been around since the very beginning of safes.  Nothing new here.

So which is it?

The flat bolts might not be new in industrial application but they are new to the commercial gun safe market.

I assume the round pins have been standard based on available materials. Heck most safe makers just used to staple carpet over wood or particle board. Now everyone is making a more modular interior thanks to Browning.

All a safe does is buy you time.  My alarms are screaming.  I'm shouting at you via my speaker on the Ring Doorbell and the cops are on the way.  


OP.  I like that these should resist a prybar better than the round bolts.

Broad brush.....marketing ploy.  In the real world, on a gun safe, the shape of the bolts will make little difference.  Even commercially the vast majority of safes and vault doors use round bolts.

You're probably quite right that flat bolts vs round is a moot point on a Ft Knox or AMSEC. But I imagine Liberty made the right choice with flat bolts in the Centurion. The Centurion is only 14g in the body (not sure about the door) so it ain't too far above filing cabinet.

Plus I assume the flat plate used, being a solid piece, is cheaper to make since the labor of bolting each round bolt is gone.

I am starting to think that I will just get a sturdy cabinet style next for my next "gunsafe". Since grinders can open up a $3000 safe in less than 5 min what's the point of spending big money for one. Even the fire ratings for the 3K safes are not very good. You would be better off putting fireboard around a gun cabinet.

 I will just add my stuff to my homeowners insurance.

DT

A Sturdy as in Sturdy Safe made in California or a sturdy as in durable?

Champion made a video (I'm not saying how realistic it is because I wasn't there to observe) where they bolted several Liberties to theirs and pulled them apart with tractors.  The very first safe was the Liberty with the bars, which promptly folded rearward and lost against the Champion.

Wow. That little 14g body really springs open.

Thanks, I haven't seen that video.  Kinda an interesting test.  Annoying music!

Somewhat reminds me of the forklift test Sturdy did a few years back.

Cost would be high but it would be awesome to see some of these tests done on higher end safes. AMSEC, Ft Knox and the like.

A TL30x6 or higher is probably safe.

I noticed in all the videos that the liberty safes are on the side being pulled. I wonder if that made any difference. Interesting to watch though.

Makes no difference unless the bolt pattern in the back is biased or the chain pulling the liberty is unevenly loaded.

There's another video showing similar pull tests on Cannon, Browning and Stack On safes. In this video one of the cameras does so they switch to sort of an overheard view. That view shows what looks to me like a pretty straight angle through both safes.

The Liberty Centurion and Revere are both entry-level as is the Champion Model T.

The Centurion isn't UL rated and is make of 14g. It looks like this also includes the door.

The Revere is UL RSC rated and is 12g. Again it looks like this includes the door.

Both Liberty models are the conventional composite door with a relatively thin piece of steel being bent to cover sheetrock.

The Model T is 12g but has a reinforced door seat and a 7/16in edge around its composite door.

The Model T is also a composite door but it does have the thicker edge across the door where it meets the body.

So in a sense the video isn't a true comparison since the one safe has more of a plate door vs two safes with a fire door.

As far as I know Liberty doesn't use plate-type doors until the National Security line. But maybe they should look at using heavy plates on the lower priced safes too.

Yeah, it is pretty bad when you have a cutting torch and a plasma cutter in your own garage. 

But then again, people say it is a bad idea to store black powder in your safe........................

Bolts are flashy and shiny and sell safes.  As long as the mechanism is engineered well, it doesn't need to be flashy.  The entire length of my safe doors, on the hinge side, have an angle iron locking bar that doesn't move.  Not flashy, but solid.  The other side has bolts.  Then there is the glass plate relocker and other counter measures.  

Two is one and all that.  

Liberty sells a "black powder inside" sticker.

Along these lines I've often wondered about painting a safe bright yellow and then sticking some flammable hazmat stickers on the outside. Make it look like some sort of secure paint cabinet.

Safe is the operative word.  A TL rated box is truly a safe.  If your door says RSC on it, it is more of a deterrent than a safe.  RSC is better than most aluminum foil Stack Ons, but not better than a UL rated safe.  Bolts, bars, gimmicks won't make a rating.  Thick and hardened materials will.  

But many can take the defeatist attitude and buy a $76000 pickup but not spend money on a good safe because "5 minutes with a grinder will defeat it".  Just 'build a box' the guy said.  People like this won't bolt their safe to the floor.  If the safe can be moved, the thief then has all the time in the world.  I bet half of arfcom didn't bother to bolt their safe to the floor.  Even a 3000 pound safe can be moved very quickly with simple tools by someone who isn't really an expert.  I have seen me do it several times.  I didn't attract a single bit of attention when I did it.  Cover the door with black plastic and you are simply moving a box.  

Many basement dwellers are too introverted to talk with their neighbors.  It is nice to have a neighbor call you and tell you a strange car is in your driveway.  You won't get this by being an asshole to your neighbors.  Layers of security, vigilant neighbors, alarm, cameras, locking your fucking doors and windows, etc. are all more important than bars or bolts in your safe.  

I would get one of I could afford one. I can't afford an 8K or more safe. More economical to buy a rider on my homeowners insurance. Everything I got is replaceable.

In The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, there is no opportunity to replace a lot of the toys we enjoy today any more. You get burglarized, they rip off your "assault" rifles and many other firearms, you're screwed. Riders on insurance gets you cash, but it doesn't replace these assets, they can't be bought any more. In this state, safes should be much more important to firearms fans....

I really HATE this state's libtard government!

Hi, Safe Guy!

Would you mind commenting on the pros/cons of flat bars vs round pegs? Has AMSEC ever considered using these in an RSC?

Sure. We have made many products with "sliding" tab-lock systems over the years. It's an effective locking system if it's done right. But, beware of the false sense of security that it may present. The forces of an aggressive pry attack with wedges and sledges can bend those tabs back or tear out the body-pockets just as easily as they can push a body away from a door to disengage round bolts. The forces are tremendous. We use this kind of locking system on small commercial safes like our Smart-Safe cash handling line because the boltwork can be far more compact, and because competitors are not careful about the beef they provide against pry attack. But, the body and door design are carefully mated to the tab-A-in-slot-B locking mechanism to make it really tough.

Is it "better"?... that is dependent on so many other factors nobody can give you a straight honest answer. The appearance of security rarely means it is better. It's like putting 2-inch diameter locking bolts on a safe made from 20 gauge steel. Do the big bolts make it better without the whole package being designed to complement the locking methods? The answer is a resounding NO. This industry in particular is about glitz and presenting an "impression" of security with a lot of hot air behind it.

Our Under-Bed Gunsafe (DV652 introduced 5-6 years ago) has a slide-bar-tab locking system, but again mostly because we are offering a far more robust locking "system" (competitively speaking) in a very low-profile package. The tab-lock systems have their place, but as Frank said, it's very old tech (read medieval times), not some amazing new invention...

Hate to hear that. I should count my blessings but OR gets like CA more and more every year. I guess there may a come a time when I can't replace my stuff either locally or nationwide. I better start saving for a TL30x6 safe.