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Posted: 6/9/2020 3:59:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: All locks have a small potential for failure. The mechanical locks tend to be a little easier to remedy after failure, given a skilled locksmith is working the problem. When e-locks fail, it generally results in drilling. E-Locks have far greater mechanical life, aside from the convenience they offer. Our e-Locks are tested to 1 million cycles without service. Typical 3-wheel mechanical locks have an expected un-serviced lifespan of around 30k cycles. In residential use, not really an issue. In commercial or high-frequency use, e-locks are preferred. Thanks TSG. This quote above really fortifies my choice in going with an electronic lock for my RSC. I got a Securam electronic lock, and I am enjoying the convenience and quality of this product. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2020 11:14:39 AM EDT
[#2]
My ESL10 made is no where near 1 million cycles. My ESL10 failed right at 5 years. At the end it would only open about 1/2 the times I tried so I did not take any chances and had it replace with a mechanical lock. A mechanical lock does not take that much more time to open.
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Posted: 6/9/2020 4:58:09 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dcashel: My ESL10 made is no where near 1 million cycles. My ESL10 failed right at 5 years. At the end it would only open about 1/2 the times I tried so I did not take any chances and had it replace with a mechanical lock. A mechanical lock does not take that much more time to open. Even though mechanical combo locks are popular, I'm sure there are quite a few safes and RSC that have e locks and many end users don't have issues with e locks. I timed myself keying in my combo on my e lock and it takes only 2 seconds to key in my combo (six digits). Dialing in my mechanical combo lock on my previous RSC took much more longer than that. |
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Posted: 6/9/2020 6:10:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#4]
I still have a gen-1 ESL10 on my personal big TL30 safe installed in 1998. Just change batteries every couple years. I don't open it every day, but maybe 3-5 times per week. So far so good.... knock on wood.
We have produced something over 1.6 million ESL10 locks. The only ones you hear about (here) are the ones that fail, obviously. The statistics are pretty impressive, actually. The failure rates on mechanical locks are not any better. The difference is that the electronics locks don't provide a locksmith with the opportunities to remedy the problem without drilling as often as a mechanical lock does. Those opportunities to get a failed mechanical lock open are the same attributes that provide skilled safe crackers with the opportunity to manipulate a lock open. Not a high risk in residential use, but it's still there. The point is that the bad rap that e-locks gets is somewhat distorted by the fact that they are more difficult to defeat or service. Many e-locks really aren't any less reliable, statistically speaking. |
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Posted: 6/10/2020 9:38:31 PM EDT
[#5]
My ESL lock failure issues appeared to be loose connectivity of the connector that plugs into the keypad with a phone/ethernet type connector. If I applied angled pressure to it, it would allow me to open the lock.
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Posted: 6/11/2020 1:01:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223:My ESL lock failure issues appeared to be loose connectivity of the connector that plugs into the keypad with a phone/Ethernet type connector. If I applied angled pressure to it, it would allow me to open the lock. It's not unusual for this -crimped- phone style plug (RJ11) on the cable end to be damaged when the keypad is allowed to drop and jerk the connection and/or hang on the cable frequently and get bumped. This is where dealer floor models tend to be problematic, because too many people have been dicking around with the Keypad doing who-knows-what. The crimps are not super strong. One of the first things we try in our resolution scripts is to re-crimp and/or replace the RJ11 connector. This fixes a lot of service problems. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/14/2020 3:32:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheBestest]
[#7]
Can you give any insight on how solar flare-proof the ESL-series are? Not really concerned about EMP, but solar flare has caused major electrical havoc in recent (1989 Quebec Blackout) time. From my understanding, an EMP can last a few seconds whereas a solar flare can last hours.
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NV, USA
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Posted: 6/14/2020 7:11:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Question for the safe guy is there any way to put the esl10 keypad into silent mode? And if so how?
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Posted: 6/15/2020 2:17:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheBestest: Can you give any insight on how solar flare-proof the ESL-series are? Not really concerned about EMP, but solar flare has caused major electrical havoc in recent (1989 Quebec Blackout) time. From my understanding, an EMP can last a few seconds whereas a solar flare can last hours. The safe is a natural Faraday Cage. Unlike some brands, all ESL Series keypads have no critical solid-state devices in the keypad itself. All the work is done in the lock, and that should be isolated from anything the Chinese or mother nature can throw. Even if the keypad is damaged, a replacement keypad should get you back in business. Of course, this has not been tested by anyone in the market, so honestly, this is not an absolute, only theoretical. |
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Posted: 6/15/2020 2:19:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By theant: Question for the safe guy is there any way to put the esl10 keypad into silent mode? And if so how? Only the ESL5 has a silent mode. If you want to permanently silence the keypad, you can clip the tiny leads to the speaker in the keypad. It won't hurt anything, but you will be is perpetual silence and forced to rely on the LED for feedback. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2020 4:44:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: Only the ESL5 has a silent mode. If you want to permanently silence the keypad, you can clip the tiny leads to the speaker in the keypad. It won't hurt anything, but you will be is perpetual silence and forced to rely on the LED for feedback. You are awesome thank you. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 7/13/2020 1:10:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: The safe is a natural Faraday Cage. Unlike some brands, all ESL Series keypads have no critical solid-state devices in the keypad itself. All the work is done in the lock, and that should be isolated from anything the Chinese or mother nature can throw. Even if the keypad is damaged, a replacement keypad should get you back in business. Of course, this has not been tested by anyone in the market, so honestly, this is not an absolute, only theoretical. @TheSafeGuy I have a NIB DV652 that sat for a few years that I just opened and the ESL5 does not work. The keypad chirps once when you connect a fresh battery, but then it blinks every second and does not respond in any way to key presses. This keypad does the same thing when I plugged it into my other, working ESL5, so I think I just need a new keypad. This safe was purchased in late 2014, so I'm sure there's no warranty left (1 year AFAIK). I have been unable to find just the keypad for sale anywhere online. Is there a way to buy one directly from AMSEC or a retailer? |
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USA
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Posted: 7/14/2020 4:12:26 PM EDT
[#13]
@TheSafeGuy
On the Amsec BFII series safe... the door organizer. Can the entire panel be removed and you could use the space behind that? Any negatives in doing so? I am thinking you want to keep dust and dirt out of the area behind the organizer, but maybe use it for longer term storage items? Might be an odd question, but planning ahead and looking at all usable space.... |
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Posted: 7/23/2020 3:08:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By altimar2777: I have a NIB DV652 that sat for a few years that I just opened and the ESL5 does not work. The keypad chirps once when you connect a fresh battery, but then it blinks every second and does not respond in any way to key presses. This keypad does the same thing when I plugged it into my other, working ESL5, so I think I just need a new keypad. This safe was purchased in late 2014, so I'm sure there's no warranty left (1 year AFAIK). I have been unable to find just the keypad for sale anywhere online. Is there a way to buy one directly from AMSEC or a retailer? The Keypad can be purchased from an authorized AMSEC dealer. See our website for dealers in your area. As for the symptoms you are experiencing... This indicates the lock is in Penalty Lockout. The boot-time Chirp and the flash once every 5 seconds indicates that is the problem. Normally, the condition will clear and reset after 15 minutes with power available. If you remove power (disconnect keypad or battery), the penalty timer is re-started. This is a manipulation (code-testing attack) safety response. If the condition does not clear after 15 minutes, then you may have one of the older locks that had a failing memory chip. We had an extend warranty allowance for that problem, but unfortunately that program was terminated in Feb 2020. The last of that generation of lock was produced in Feb. 2017. In the even this is all right, your warranty has expired. If you need hesitance finding a qualified Locksmith to help you remedy the problem, please call our tech support line. If your lock Serial Number is EL20000001 or later (look under the Keypad on the Mounting Base), please contact our tech support staff at 951-685-9680. They may be able to assist. |
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Posted: 7/23/2020 3:17:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By liaisons:On the Amsec BFII series safe... the door organizer. Can the entire panel be removed and you could use the space behind that? Any negatives in doing so? I am thinking you want to keep dust and dirt out of the area behind the organizer, but maybe use it for longer term storage items? Might be an odd question, but planning ahead and looking at all usable space.... There are some unoccupied areas under the boltwork cover. However, if you choose to remove the cover and utilize that space, there is always a risk that your modifications may impede proper mechanical operation that could result in a void warranty condition. We do not recommend you remove the back cover, it is there to avoid interference from safe contents. If you choose to do that, be very careful about how items in the safe or things placed in the door's open spaces might interfere with operation. To be clear, if actions you take to modify a safe causes a lockout, the warranty will be void and you will be responsible for the cost of any remedy. That would include using the safe without a boltwork cover installed. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/23/2020 6:55:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: There are some unoccupied areas under the boltwork cover. However, if you choose to remove the cover and utilize that space, there is always a risk that your modifications may impede proper mechanical operation that could result in a void warranty condition. We do not recommend you remove the back cover, it is there to avoid interference from safe contents. If you choose to do that, be very careful about how items in the safe or things placed in the door's open spaces might interfere with operation. To be clear, if actions you take to modify a safe causes a lockout, the warranty will be void and you will be responsible for the cost of any remedy. That would include using the safe without a boltwork cover installed. Excellent points and while obvious to some, not something I had considered! I think I’ll leave the cover installed and not make use of the space. I plan to get a 2nd AMSEC in the near future. The BF II series is perfection for me! I appreciate your time and insight! |
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Posted: 7/29/2020 3:38:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Conju]
[#17]
I'm all set, thanks! Still loving my BF6636.
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LA, USA
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Posted: 7/30/2020 3:30:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: The Keypad can be purchased from an authorized AMSEC dealer. See our website for dealers in your area. As for the symptoms you are experiencing... This indicates the lock is in Penalty Lockout. The boot-time Chirp and the flash once every 5 seconds indicates that is the problem. Normally, the condition will clear and reset after 15 minutes with power available. If you remove power (disconnect keypad or battery), the penalty timer is re-started. This is a manipulation (code-testing attack) safety response. If the condition does not clear after 15 minutes, then you may have one of the older locks that had a failing memory chip. We had an extend warranty allowance for that problem, but unfortunately that program was terminated in Feb 2020. The last of that generation of lock was produced in Feb. 2017. In the even this is all right, your warranty has expired. If you need hesitance finding a qualified Locksmith to help you remedy the problem, please call our tech support line. If your lock Serial Number is EL20000001 or later (look under the Keypad on the Mounting Base), please contact our tech support staff at 951-685-9680. They may be able to assist. The SN is EL 739527. I guess that is earlier than what you said, so I'm out of luck there? I've left it plugged into my "good" safe for 40 minutes now and it's still blinking every 1 second. I don't think it's the penalty lockout mode you describe, because I can also immediately plug my good keypad in and unlock it. Next chance I get, I will try the good keypad on the "bad" lock (it's at my Dad's house). If that works then I guess I'll check the two dealers in town for a new keypad. Otherwise, I guess the whole thing is going in the garbage, because I don't think it'd be very cost-effective to break into it, install a new lock, and repair the damage. Mea culpa for waiting so long to open it. |
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Posted: 8/3/2020 2:27:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By altimar2777: The SN is EL 739527. I guess that is earlier than what you said, so I'm out of luck there? I've left it plugged into my "good" safe for 40 minutes now and it's still blinking every 1 second. I don't think it's the penalty lockout mode you describe, because I can also immediately plug my good keypad in and unlock it. Next chance I get, I will try the good keypad on the "bad" lock (it's at my Dad's house). If that works then I guess I'll check the two dealers in town for a new keypad. Otherwise, I guess the whole thing is going in the garbage, because I don't think it'd be very cost-effective to break into it, install a new lock, and repair the damage. Mea culpa for waiting so long to open it. Yea, that Serial Number was manufactured approx. Dec. 2011, so it's quite old. Wish we could help, but this one is clearly well out of the "maybe we can help" zone. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/9/2020 11:16:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Hello,
This question is only related to an AMSEC safe in the fact that its the brand I use today for my own safe but its more of a universal question in general about gun safes with the understanding that not all of them are created the same. When a safe is in a closed up/ locked state (I'm using a 6030 BFII) are there enough cracks/crevices and other air gaps in the design for it not to be considered a "Sealed Box"? So for example, if I have the door open then close it, how likely is it that "New/Fresh Air" will find its way inside the box with the door being closed? To clarify where this question is going, I have a few pieces of "running" network/computer gear I would really like to place inside my safe for various reasons but in doing so it requires a Network Switch, Power Strip, NAS (ie..think small Synology) and a management PC (ie..think small Intel NUC). From a real estate standpoint this stuff does fit in there nicely. From a connectivity standpoint, the safe has an AC plug and an access hole for a network cable (I only need one cable IN/OUT). But with that said I do have some concerns about airflow inside the safe once the door is closed. If the safe is considered sufficiently sealed then I can envision a point where all the air trapped inside the safe begins heating up until it gets too hot to provide enough cooling for the equipment resulting in overheating, shutdowns, or if it gets real ugly...maybe even a fire inside the box!  So...has anyone else done or considered doing something similar to what I have described above? Did it work out OK? How bad of an idea is this @thesafeguy? Thanks for any thoughts |
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Posted: 8/10/2020 7:32:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS:To clarify where this question is going, I have a few pieces of "running" network/computer gear I would really like to place inside my safe for various reasons but in doing so it requires a Network Switch, Power Strip, NAS (ie..think small Synology) and a management PC (ie..think small Intel NUC). From a real estate standpoint this stuff does fit in there nicely. From a connectivity standpoint, the safe has an AC plug and an access hole for a network cable (I only need one cable IN/OUT). But with that said I do have some concerns about airflow inside the safe once the door is closed. If the safe is considered sufficiently sealed then I can envision a point where all the air trapped inside the safe begins heating up until it gets too hot to provide enough cooling for the equipment resulting in overheating, shutdowns, or if it gets real ugly...maybe even a fire inside the box! So...has anyone else done or considered doing something similar to what I have described above? Did it work out OK? How bad of an idea is this @thesafeguy? This question comes up frequently. Due to the variability of devices that you may install, it's a rather ambiguous question, because each device has it's own unique thermal output and temperature tolerances. In a perfect world, one would install a cooling system that could maintain a fixed temperature in the safe and hence mitigate device overheating issues. In any safe, regardless of the quality of door sealing, the door gaps are unlikely to be adequate to exchange enough air to allow heat-generating devices to remain at room temperature. In fact, the device heating the air would be the only real circulation force that caused all but very small natural aspiration of the safe's trapped air. So, by that measure, your stuff will only be cooled by the inherent heating they generate. Safe manufacturers will run and hide if you try to get some assurances otherwise. Intentional cooling allowances for this are not present in any conventional safe I have seen, and aftermarket measures would be necessary to provide adequate cooling for even the smallest of devices. We could talk a lot about the HOW to make this a safe practice, but any solution will represent both a security and fire resistance compromise. Drilling a small cluster of holes and mounting an exhaust fan would be a pretty simple solution, but the downside is obvious. In a nutshell, there are solutions, but it's comes with either real high cost (complex refrigeration), or a negative structural trade-off with fire and security quality. I would offer one final point. Electronics have reliability factors that are directly related to the stress they are exposed to in service. Elevating an electronic device to higher-than-normal temperatures for long periods is high on the list of things that increase risk of early component failure. Keep that in mind as you seek a solution. I would not take that risk with valuable critical purpose equipment without some cooling option employed, and a means to verify it is always working. |
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Posted: 8/10/2020 11:17:19 PM EDT
[#22]
I just bought used AMSEC safe that I don't have the combination. How much can I expect to pay a safesmith to open it for me?
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Posted: 8/11/2020 9:13:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Thank you so very much TSG for alll you’re valuable info. You have convinced me to get an AMSEC safe . Don’t know if this is appropriate or not , there are a coupla dealers in Houston area , is one of them more preferable than the other? IM me one way or the other . Thanks
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DEU
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Posted: 8/24/2020 6:04:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Hi, I just registered here because of this thread. I am not interested in guns at all, but in safes. As I am in Europe/Germany I have very different point of view on safes and it is fascinating to have a knowledgeable view from the other side of the ocean, because safes have been a very local business with local standards and local traditions. I am at the moment on page 11 of this thread. I will probably come the next weeks with more quotes of old posts.
Maybe a word about my view of the current European situation. There is a European test standard for safes, EN 1143-1. For this standard there are in multiple countries labs like the UL, i.e. in Germany, France, Spain, UK, ... . All these should provide the same test level for the same test standard. But there is also a lab in Poland, then appeared one in Czech republic, and I think there is now also one in Ukraine (not sure of the legal status). So a safe manufacturer can go to all of these labs, get a certificate, sell the safe and the customer can get it insured all the same. There is the incentive to do easy testing which results in many customers and a high earning. That is because easy testing means lower costs for the safe production, which is good for sales, because the end customer cares only about price and rating. It is not possible for him to understand the secret safe technology. So basically the cheapest safe having the required rating is for him the best safe. The result is IMHO a race to the bottom. That's why I have bought for myself a 30 year old safe, which has a filler, that could satisfy UL's requirements for TRTL. Phew, 2000 character limit... Let's see how I can continue... |
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DEU
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Posted: 8/24/2020 6:05:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MartinHewitt]
[#25]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy (in 2013): The before mentioned Swiss made FAS 6800 series lock marketed in the US by S&G is an example of a premium lock that bears a UL437 rating and does provide a very high degree of pick resistance. Most (I think it's safe to say all) other locks of this quality level are made in Europe and do not match the form-factor of the standard combo lock, and hence are not easily used without considerable safe modifications. So, be aware of the consequences of such a swap, it could bite you in the ass. |
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DEU
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Posted: 8/24/2020 6:06:06 PM EDT
[#26]
And my final post for now ...
I have also a question. In Europe the Russian manufacturer Promet gets stronger and stronger. The products are ... (I am probably not allowed to use that word here) and therefore probably very cheaply made in Bulgaria. They have a patents for filling walls with plywood and PU foam. There has been a batch of their medium-high security safes where the door filler was rattling. Maybe they forgot the PU foam. Their safes are sold under a lot of brands to hide their origin. My question is, do they sell on the US market too? I haven't found their products on US websites. Maybe they are still to expensive for drywall safes. And another question: Is there any UL 437 type 1 key lock? I could only find type 2 locks. As I am reading from start to the end it might take a while until you will see a reaction by me here. |
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DEU
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Posted: 8/24/2020 7:00:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MartinHewitt]
[#27]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy (also in 2013): One of the "problems" with the UL testing program is that of reality when it comes to resources. In Europe, the test standards restrict the team from carrying more than a reasonable bag of tools with a limited weight. They don't get to select from a big tool crib full of goodies to do a test, if they didn't put it in the bag, they can't use it. Some of the standards include maximum noise levels allowed, so power tools are limited. This simulates the real world much better. No burglar carries 2 extra circular saws to a job! They don't get to stop the clock when they change a saw blade, sharpen a pick axe or re-position a drill rig. The UL testing is meant to be uber-conservative. Under the European test standards, a TL-15 body is almost like a 30 minute tool rating. EN 1143-1 is the same as the UL that there are lots of tools to choose from and that the clock runs only when a tool is used. The main difference is that UL test is only about the clock. It is n minutes. It doesn't matter if it is with a pry bar or an angle grinder. In the European standard it is all about points. Each rating level has a point value. The lab must not be able to openi the safe with these number of points. The point calculation is much more complex than the minutes. Each tool has its basic point value. A long prybar has 7 points, a wedge 1 point, a medium sized sledge hammer also 7 points. Together that would be 15 points. Then there are points for the usage time of a tool. For the wedge that would be 5 points per minute, for the other tools 7.5 point per minute. The highest tool rating for an attack is used. The lowest rating level (level 0) has a target of 30 points. For this set of tools the points allow a tool time of 2 minutes. ... |
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DEU
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Posted: 8/24/2020 7:01:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MartinHewitt]
[#28]
...
An angle grinder with a diamond disc has already 35 base points and 10 points per minute. As the base points are higher than the target points it is out of scope for the lowest safe rating. The highest common rating is level 5. Its target is 270 points for a big opening. So it would need to resist an opening for 23 1/2 minutes of diamond disc tool time. Due to this complexity it might reflect more the different sophistication levels of real burglars, but its practical meaning is even more obscure than that of the UL tests. If the only requirement is an insurance it is ok. x money means y rating. Everything else is difficult. With an alarm system the police arrives after n minutes. What rating is needed for this case? This questions can't really be answered. |
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Posted: 9/1/2020 4:06:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MartinHewitt: Welcome to the ARFCOM forums Martin. Happy to see a contribution from the other side of the pond. Admittedly, I don't know a lot about the standards in the EU or otherwise. This has been an area of interest for us for a long time, but we simply never have taken the plunge to get int hat game. So I can clearly state our goals... we are a safe company. We want to build safes. Having the right lock for the job brings in safe business. We produce electronic products because the other guys doing that miss the target every time. We are talking to the end users, both commercial, banking, institutional and residential. So, this is our competitive advantage in our home market, and by having proprietary E-Lock offerings we can tailor to the customer, we get a much better opportunity to win business. As an added benefit, we cut out the middle-man with proprietary lock products and enjoy a lower unit cost that provide a better competitive price. Last, we control our own destiny with reliability and quality. The "Lock Makers" all wash their hands of the products they sell once they leave their factories, and don't face the financial consequences of a failing product. They have hard limits on what they cover, and for how long. Getting a service claim compensation from them is not much more than a dream, and when we do get compensation, it's materials only and never includes the cost of service labor, which is many times the value of the failing locks. We are customer-focused, playing for a premium reputation, support and hopes of future business opportunities. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/7/2020 6:52:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: Thanks for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. So since my last post I've been running my NAS and an Intel NUC (nothing else) inside the safe while keeping an eye on the Temps of both devices via their built-in sensors (ie..CPU/Hard Drive Temps logged). Compared to where these devices were living before (in a closet inside the house) the Temps have certainly gone up but not to a level that concerns me that much....luckily. Avg Temps of these devices before being inside the safe were in the Mid 40deg C range for the NAS and Mid 50deg C for the Intel NUC. Since that time I've seen 10-15deg positive swings at the hottest time of day and then they fall back off to close to their Pre-Safe temp in the evenings. I will say that when I had a switch in the safe things were getting Very Toasty to the point of feeling some concern so I pulled it out of there. Once the switch was out of the safe these devices have fallen back into the Temp ranges mentioned which I can live with. Will see how many weeks/months/years this choice will shave off the components lives  |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 5:25:56 PM EDT
[#31]
I need a few parts for my Amsec. I have the part numbers. Where can I order them through? Please IM me any questions.
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DEU
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Posted: 9/10/2020 5:48:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Yes! I read all the important bits and pieces of all the 54 pages. Nearly all of my questions which a chance to be answered have been answered. So I got nearly only comments left. Mostly about locks.
All of the great historic safe manufacturers are either totally out of business, e.g. Mosler, or reduced to a brand, e.g. Chubb. From what I have read about safe manufacturers selling in the US the company which gave me the best impression is AmSec. AmSec has already a history in safe production. The experience of highly rated burglary and fire safes is trickling down into the low end market and making the low end products more secure than these would be otherwise. And most of all I don't see any of this BS like "titanium relockers" with only computer generated vault doors. So if I would live in the US and would need a new safe I would probably buy AmSec. My currently only question about AmSec is: What is the difference between ESL*0 and ESL*0XL? I never find the two model names next to each other. |
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DEU
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Posted: 9/10/2020 6:01:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: UL has an unwritten rule that the real estate under the lock footprint does not get attacked. And, like you suggest, they regard the lock rating as an independent listing that should stand on it's own. At the risk of opening a can of worms, that rule should probably be reconsidered. Yes! It is the same in Europe. With a rule like that the hard plate is a generosity of the safe manufacturer. I know a safe manufacturer, that has the glass plate only under and around the lock bolt for mitigation of the lock bolt punching attack which you mentioned here. If this more or less written rule is changed, then the effect would probably be that a safe test must include a list of locks and safe manufacturers need to change the design, so that the lock is protected from all sides, like in GSA containers. Two locks instead of one would also buy time. |
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DEU
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Posted: 9/10/2020 6:25:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Before I saw how professionals moved a 2000 lbs safe I thought, that moving such a safe is difficult. Now I think it is easy as long as there are no stairs in the way. A pallet truck allows easy movement. A prybar, different thicknesses of wooden beams and round stock steel and two guys is enough for lowering it down and lifting it up. Lift one side with the prybar and exchange the beam something thicker or thinner, then do the same on the other side. The round stock is nice for the final movement before putting it onto the ground. I learned also a nice trick from a professional safe mover. They have magnets attached into their thickest beams. Two of these are as good as a pallet, but are easily attachable and removable.
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DEU
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Posted: 9/10/2020 7:40:19 PM EDT
[#35]
Now to the locks. I'll to make it as short as possible.
Personally I do prefer mechanical locks. They have a much lower complexity than electronic locks. Their failure mode is more forgiving. Unfortunately most mechanical locks are selected mostly by their low price. A 6741 with single locking wheels and key locks with zamak keys that break. From a good lock I expect it to work for generations. Many locks older than 100 years show that this can be achieved with proper quality. For company use I prefer electronic locks because they are really convenient. One code per person, quick opening, auditing and other extras like time delay. If something breaks someone is paid to solve the problem. Unfortunately an electronic lock is really complex. Nearly no user can check if a lock is good. It all boils down to trust. Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy: The codes are stored in the locks, not in the Keypads. That is... well, frankly impossible. You are right, that would be an absurd design flaw, and it's simply not designed that way. The Keypad is no more than a simple input device ... Usually this is the case. I am sure all UL listed locks don't have this design flaw. But non-listed do have it. They look like real safe locks, cost in the US nearly as much and open with the PIN or fingerprint and not with the wrong data. Still all data is stored in the keypad. The fingerprint is taken, stored and matched in a standard fingerprint module from ZhiAnTec. The keypad does only tell the lock body to open. Actually I think that is not a design flaw. To be a design flaw there had to be someone designing the security of the lock and I strongly doubt anyone did. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 7:40:50 PM EDT
[#36]
My guess is that a UL test of an electronic lock costs less than 100000. The testing you can get is not enough for the complexity of an electronic lock. Testing in Europe is not better. The result is the Taylor Tech tool and the DEFCON presentation about the Kaba Mas locks. Fortunately home burglaries are not that high-tech, but the next burglary of Hatton Garden might be with a small device, that opens the vault door instantly and makes the core drill unnecessary.
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy: As mechanical combo locks go, that S&G 6630 is the best lock in the Group 2M class. The standard mechanical lock is a Lock1One, aka Big Red. The 6630 is a refined assembly that sports machined brass parts, as opposed to die cast zinc and stamped parts in the lower quality products. Reliability differential between the Big Red and S&G is very small, with the S&G 6630 owning the best lock award by a small margin. Not knowing the price difference, I would opt for the S&G if we are talking about a small bump. This is actually my favorite manipulation protected combination lock, because the parts protecting against manipulation do not render the lock inoperable when they break, and because it turns so extremely smoothly. All the locks with a fence lever control device (Big Red 2M, LG 3390) have an area where more force is needed which makes precise dialing more cumbersome. Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy: As previously noted, the number of orders we get for this lock are very limited. Since we came out with our patented "Redundant Lock Boltwork", the order volume has dropped even more. With such low volume, we are not gathering meaningful statistics on reliability. I know a Case pops up now and then, but I don't think it's fair to state failure rates when we sell so few. I do like this bolt work. I removes complexity from the lock and replaced it with a very simple mechanism. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 7:41:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Originally Posted By turnip75: Depends. In the US, where key operated safe locks are rare and few people know how to pick them, they are very pick resistant. In Europe, there are tools available and someone who is trained can do it reliably in less than 20 minutes. That depends very much on the lock. There are certified locks, that can be picked easily in less than 5 minutes. The S&G FAS 68x0 locks are very pick resistant. Picking(!) them in less than 40 minutes will be very difficult and IMHO very unlikely. But there are also decoders. Decoders have a big advantage over picking with the more secure locks. Could be possible to make a decoder for the FAS that opens it reliable in less than 20 minutes. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 7:55:51 PM EDT
[#38]
And finally ...
Originally Posted By a1abdj: I see scammers that will go out with a hole saw and cut four or five 6" holes in a safe with a hole saw and those that called them simply believe that they must know what they're doing. Yes! This is very sadly the case. There was a report about two "safe specialists" (probably really at best an average locksmith) opening two old safes in a city hall. Reporters and city officers had no doubts that the "specialists" cut both safes open with angle grinders. Media reports like these teach the public that a horrible safe service is normal. Luckily (for the "specialists") these two safes very not really secure. Heard about another pack of "safe specialists" who where called to open a secure safe that had a problem. They worked three days with drill and angle grinder, wrote an invoice of €7000, didn't get the safe open and were paid! Then a real safe specialist was called. He found out, that the problem could have been fixed without any damage, but had to finish the opening of the heavily damaged safe. Afterwards the safe was unusable, had to be disposed of and a new one had to be bought. I think the overall damage done by the initial "safe specialists" was about €20000. |
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Posted: 9/13/2020 2:39:50 PM EDT
[#39]
I have a question! :)
Would it make sense in a situation of a wild fire. like they are now, to tilt a fire safe over, so that it lies on the door? Could this making the opening of the safe after the fire easier? |
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Posted: 9/13/2020 4:53:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MartinHewitt: Before I saw how professionals moved a 2000 lbs safe I thought, that moving such a safe is difficult. Now I think it is easy as long as there are no stairs in the way. A pallet truck allows easy movement. A prybar, different thicknesses of wooden beams and round stock steel and two guys is enough for lowering it down and lifting it up. Lift one side with the prybar and exchange the beam something thicker or thinner, then do the same on the other side. The round stock is nice for the final movement before putting it onto the ground. I learned also a nice trick from a professional safe mover. They have magnets attached into their thickest beams. Two of these are as good as a pallet, but are easily attachable and removable. This is why bolting the safe to a concrete slab is so critical. |
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Posted: 9/13/2020 7:20:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Would it make sense in a situation of a wild fire. like they are now, to tilt a fire safe over, so that it lies on the door? Could this making the opening of the safe after the fire easier? Yes, because the lower the safe is to the ground, the lower the temperature it is exposed to (generally speaking). It may or may not make it easier to open. If you flip it on its face and punch the dial inward you may activate the relocker(s). Face against the ground would tend to keep the door cooler and less likely to have parts melt off. All of that said, if you have time to flip your gun safe over you probably have time to empty it out, which will give you the best results overall. |
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Posted: 9/14/2020 3:45:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marquar: This is why bolting the safe to a concrete slab is so critical. I did a survey of the police reports of burglaries here in Germany. 95% of all home safes were stolen. I assume they are on the average much smaller and lighter than the safes in the US, probably many thin Chinese boxes, but I have also read about one 1300lbs commercial safe which was stolen. So I agree completely with you. Bolt the safe down as good as possible. Use any hole you can. A single anchor might be strong enough, but maybe the wall isn't. |
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Posted: 9/14/2020 4:11:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj: All of that said, if you have time to flip your gun safe over you probably have time to empty it out, which will give you the best results overall. It probably was a dumb idea. The higher the security rating is, the more work makes it to break it open afterwards, but also the work it is to flip it over two times. Taking as much with you as possible is a good idea. |
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Posted: 9/18/2020 1:23:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MartinHewitt: I have a question! :) Would it make sense in a situation of a wild fire. like they are now, to tilt a fire safe over, so that it lies on the door? Could this making the opening of the safe after the fire easier? There is a thread in the archives where a member here built a Type X (fire) rated gypsum wallboard/sheet rock cabinet (2 layers as I recall) around his RSC/Safe, just a thought. |
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Posted: 9/21/2020 2:20:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MartinHewitt: I have a question! :) Would it make sense in a situation of a wild fire. like they are now, to tilt a fire safe over, so that it lies on the door? Could this making the opening of the safe after the fire easier? Sure, that would help a lot. Getting the safe down closer to the ground (assuming a tall-narrow gunsafe profile) is going to reduce the larger exposed surfaces considerably and the temperatures closer to the floor are generally lower too. A bed of sand would be ideal if you do this, that would allow some relief for the dial/handle/hinges and create a semi-seal.. |
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Posted: 10/11/2020 12:57:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Boom_Stick]
[#46]
Nvrmnd
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Posted: 10/12/2020 2:06:26 PM EDT
[#47]
Do you have any word on when MAX15 gun safes will be shipped? I live in DFW area and the safe store said they ordered them many months ago. The reason I am asking is that I will have to cut 9 inches of wall in the house to install it, and I don't want to make that kind of mess now if the safes won't be delivered for several more months.
Another question; Sargent and Greenleaf makes Group 1 mechanical combination locks, is AMSEC planning to update their mechanical dial locks from Group 2 to Group 1? |
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Posted: 10/12/2020 4:13:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#48]
ANNOUNCEMENT
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce the end of my employment with AMSEC. The company management has changed, and the reorganization resulted in the elimination of my position as the Vice President of Engineering and Technology. After dedicating 32 years of my career to innovation and market leading product development, my mark has been left on an industry. I take great pride in my accomplishments, and I know my legacy will resonate for many years. I leave six industry specific Patents, and dozens of other design innovations that deserved Patent protection. I left my mark, good bad or otherwise... As you might expect, my inside influence and knowledge of the company's business comes to an end with this termination. So, given that I am no longer qualified to answer questions about current/future products or market plans. I am happy to continue to participate in debates and answer questions that pull from my experience and knowledge, so I will continue to post and comment where I can add value. As I said very early in my ARFCOM comments, I am not about promoting a product or company, and I hope to continue with that path here on the ARFCOM forums. I am seeking the next phase of my engineering and manufacturing career with optimism and hope, even thru these difficult times with a pandemic forcing business to it's knees. |
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Posted: 10/12/2020 4:34:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CMPEBRFAN]
[#49]
As the proud owner of two Amsec BF6030s, I would like to thank you for all your contributions here and wish you good fortune for the future.
@TheSafeGuy |
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Posted: 10/12/2020 7:04:18 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: ANNOUNCEMENT It is with a heavy heart that I must announce the end of my employment with AMSEC. The company management has changed, and the reorganization resulted in the elimination of my position as the Vice President of Engineering and Technology. After dedicating 32 years of my career to innovation and market leading product development, my mark has been left on an industry. I take great pride in my accomplishments, and I know my legacy will resonate for many years. I leave six industry specific Patents, and dozens of other design innovations that deserved Patent protection. I left my mark, good bad or otherwise... As you might expect, my inside influence and knowledge of the company's business comes to an end with this termination. So, given that I am no longer qualified to answer questions about current/future products or market plans. I am happy to continue to participate in debates and answer questions that pull from my experience and knowledge, so I will continue to post and comment where I can add value. As I said very early in my ARFCOM comments, I am not about promoting a product or company, and I hope to continue with that path here on the ARFCOM forums. I am seeking the next phase of my engineering and manufacturing career with optimism and hope, even thru these difficult times with a pandemic forcing business to it's knees. We (ARF) have had over seven years of solid advice, thank you. I am glad to hear you are going to hang around, the safe forum would not be the same without you. Best wishes and I hope you can find a good fit for your skills. |
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