I understand how you might think that but I don't work for Sturdy, I don't know them at all in fact only that I admire their work. I am an engineer for **Edit** . We have been in Massena NY now (where I work) for 113 years and even my great grandfather worked for the company. Massena metal was used on the first Wright brothers plane, every major NASA mission, almost all of the high voltage transmission lines in the country and is on pretty much everyone's M16 / AR15 rifle with a 7075 aluminum alloy frame made in this country. We have over 50 heat treat furnaces at our combined locations in Massena and a couple of which I helped design. Smelting, Alloying, Heat Treating, Aging it is all at high temperature, all of the time and all with passive insulators; for someone to say these high performance insulators are inferior is a joke. Thermodynamics don't lie, if you can walk up to a furnace that has been running at over 1000F for 24/7 and can put your hand on it without burning it, thank low thermal conductivity passive insulators. For all of us with self cleaning ovens that can do the same thing, again thank these modern high performance passive fiber insulators.

Then you might want to consult one of those Engineers that design those furnaces. Maybe they can enlighten you... or rather they would be a new person to argue with if you're so biased to believe that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to a safe. You continue to misunderstand what you think is a comparative system. The LOSSES are what allows you to touch that outer skin. Do us all a favor and Google "Energy Losses in Furnace Walls" and start reading the thousands of pages that address the heat transfer losses thru the walls of furnaces. The image below is pretty typical of a proper engineering assessment of a furnace efficiency process. A safe is nothing like this. The safe is inside the furnace, with no exit for any energy flowing into the safe mass.

Here is a classical problem where the thermal losses are are given, along with the inside and outside temperature, to estimate the thickness of the furnace insulation required.

If you're an engineer, this unbiased instructional website should make you question your thinking. Notice that the conditions are similar to those we are debating. Also note there is substantial energy flow (15800 W/m2) that is part of the given conditions.

Now, go back and picture that safe in the furnace, where the INSIDE wall temperature continues to rise because there is no escape route for the energy passing thru the walls.

Heat Transfer Problem : Minimum thickness for a composite furnace wall

I would like to know how the security of this safe compares to a safe w/ a single wall, non-fire lined, 7ga body and 5/16" door that is, um, rugged.  
 

You're a sneaky lot, aren't yea? (spoken with a deep Scottish accent)

The CSC is a unique safe. When I created this safe, the intent was to take it to UL and create a 10-minute CSC Rating. The model designation CSC means Commercial Security Container, as opposed to the 5-minute Residential Security Container (RSC). It has all the brawn to make that happen as it stands. A genuine composite safe with (I think) an inner and outer 12 Gauge steel shell in the Body and Door, filled with our kick-ass TL15/30 body concrete mix that runs around 7,500 psi. With construction like this, a true winner in any class of sub-TL safes. The construction would probably out-last a 3/8" steel body or door with tool attacks, and probably stand well against torch too. The design is based on AMVault, but with thinner walls and door. I'm fairly confident it would easily win a UL Class 350-1 hour fire rating if we took it in for testing. We actually planned for this safe to make a 2-hour rating, and in a factory test it achieved such a level. The UL 2-hour rating is a bit more rigorous, so it might not get there. Only testing would tell.

We changed our path and never took the unit to UL for fire or burglary ratings, but we may still do that one day. The product is a lame duck in our product mix, where we have not seen the demand and acceptance, nor the expected call for this mid-range safe. The price point invades the TL15 class safe sales and might also dilute the BF sales if it were rated as planned, so it was not taken to the end-game.  It's a no-frills jewel when it comes to value, so if this particular model is big enough to suit your needs, scoop it up, because it may get cut if demand does not grow. We won't be making a larger model. There are 3 smaller sizes, and that's it.

Pretty picture, the only number that matters is losses to walls and modern furnaces don't lose that much heat to conduction ... you might want to update your propaganda material.

You seem to be ignoring the media vault example from Firelock. There is no place for heat to escape, the vault is entirely contained within a furnace for 5 hours and a final temperature that's over 2000F. The panels are insulated with only ceramic fiber. Thermocouples on walls on all sides of the vault are still under 125F at the end of their test. Where's the heat loss now?

http://www.firelock.com/fire-barriers-vs-firelock-vaults.htm

Another irrelevant comparison. You have seen the math, you have seen the laws of thermodynamics applied, you have been given the tools. You have NOT provided contradictory theory or math, only your "idea" of how things work, without any scientific support.

Siting some company that sells a product that makes Class 125 fire claims does not make them the authority, nor honest. This is a VERY deceiving manufacturer. You should read the double-talk on that website when it comes to UL and testing. They only site UL standards, and make no claims of certifications or of ever having tested their product as a unit at UL. They do not have any UL Listings whatsoever. This is another manufacturer that bases untested ratings on the raw materials specifications, and not on empirical testing. All of the "ratings" are self-imposed, and no better than all the unproven ratings on Gunsafes today. This is a scam on a large scale. Also take careful note that they are intended for use in "non-combustible industrial structures". Buyer beware....


If you disbelieve, look it up yourself UL Lisitng Search


Those claims of testing at Omega Point... I have been there, many times. That furnace they have is nowhere near big enough to test even their smallest vault. This is all a mammoth consumer deception. Whatever they tested was not representative of the product they sell. There is a simple matter of scale in fire resistance. The bigger the body, the greater the protection required. IF they tested some small scale model, it is not allowed to scale that test up to a larger structure. In UL testing, you can test and list containers from the cubic capacity of the tested model, down to 50% of the capacity of the tested unit. They do NOT allow any up-scale models, you must test larger safes for a rating. Take my word for it, the larger they get, the harder it gets, bigtime.


... reference debunked... try again.

I for one, like the idea of an intermediate rating between RSC and TL-15.  I recognize that there is a large gap there, but I'm sure I'm in the minority at the consumer level.  



My goal is to have two safes: a small one for the bedroom w/ an e-lock that is capable of storing at least 2 long guns, and a larger safe for the rest of my collection.  The CSC is in the running for the bedroom safe.



Move the guns out of their existing cabinets, build some plywood shelving, and voila: ammunition lockers.



I've determined that it's not worth it to buy either safe until I move 10 months from now.  If you can figure out a way to divert the steam of the RF6528 away from the safe contents by then, you will be my new favorite person that I've never met.



 

Interesting, I think this product would sell, maybe the marketing needs to be different.The Sturdy Safe Model 2723  w/fire is about the same size as the AMSEC CSC4520. The AMSEC can be purchased for significantly less just based on a quick comparison using Safeandvaultstore pricing and Sturdy's website. ($2167 vs. $1549 for the AMSEC), they are both in the 11 cu ft internal size range.

Based on the information you provided the AMSEC CSC is a bargain for what you get for the money.

I'm only a veterinarian who took 2 semesters of college physics and I can understand what SafeGuy had repeatedly PROVEN on this stuff.  I don't understand how an engineer can't understand it.  Not to be a jerk but I also think you must be a troll or work for Sturdy.  Give it up man.  

one word: freight



 

Both of the prices quoted in my post, the Sturdy at $2167 and the AMSEC at $1549 at Safe&Vault INCLUDE freight to your residence.

Ah, I was thinking of The Safe Place.  You are correct - Safe & Vault has a heck of a deal.  I hope they still have it for that price 10 months from now.



Dean Safe has theirs decked out w/ the firearm interior you see in the pic.  I wonder if Amsec would sell that interior direct.



 

Have you guys ever shopped for these safes outside of some of these websites?  The prices seem to be in the same ball park as what I sell them for locally right out of the shop.  Truthfully, I think this is a great example of how AMSEC is shooting themselves in the foot.  They have let these online retailers gain the attention that would normally go to a regular local dealer, and they can't provide any of the support that a local dealer can.

Granted,  a lot of the smaller dealers tend to sell closer to list price because they aren't equipped to handle the larger safes.  But any good sized area safe company should be pretty competitive on pricing.

This is also one of the reasons that some of us track down the asian manufacturers who make these safes for the brand names, and locate other US based importers that they sell to.  Since the manufacturers let some of these online retailers cut into the local business, there's a diminished loyalty amongst the dealers towards these manufacturers.  Sometimes you can find the exact same safes, with a different name on it, for a lower price, on the same showroom floor.

SafeGuy-

Based on what you have told us about the desire to try to keep the outer steel shell attached to composite safes for as long as possible, and the marketing literature that mentions steel wire within the composite structure, I'm picturing wire wrapped around steel posts that are welded to the inside of the steel shell, with an appearance similar to a relocker setup.  Fill it with concrete, and the wires are trapped within the concrete structure.  Am I right, or did I just totally blow your mind? LOL

Frank-

I'm surprised you are selling for similar prices to the internet dealers.  Unfortunately, you're in The Gateway to the West.  I wish you were a little farther into the frontier, my friend.  I wouldn't mind buying one of those refurbished bank vault doors from you, but my sure-fire get-rich-quick plan of buying a lottery ticket has backfired on me several times.    



 

Have you guys ever shopped for these safes outside of some of these websites?  The prices seem to be in the same ball park as what I sell them for locally right out of the shop.

Frank, you mentioned this before, and I took your advice and yes I was able to find a local brick & mortar dealer that was cheaper than anything I could find on-line so I am 100% in agreement with you.

I posted the Sturdy vs AMSEC prices just to show a comparison after Thesafeguy mentioned how nice the CSC series was for the money.

aklferris, unless you are in Colby or Hays, Frank is your local dealer as he is in St Louis as I recall.

I hate to throw more on the fire, Pun intended


Advertising like this really chaps me now that we have heard both sides of the story:









Best I can tell they are mixing truth and BS, acting as if they tested it all, and spreading it as the gospel. The reality is that for most people fire is as big or bigger threat as attack.They WOULD be better served by a sheetrock lined liberty than a steel hotbox.

At this point, they can't really change their design, otherwise the apostles will revolt.

I'm not sure I follow your post, but I have noticed sturdy's graphic on their page.  I find it interesting that even they say it's a better value to buy their safes without fire protection.





 

Wow, you guys have quite the little pissing contest going on here...

Curiosity question for TheSafeGuy, as the VP of engineering at Amsec, perhaps you could influence your VP of marketing to become a sponsor here. Then you'll have your own section to shill your product in.  In one of your initial posts, you indicated you had just purchased an "assault rifle" and stumbled upon this site and were happy to answer questions, but weren't going to promote your company's products.  However,  it seems, by reading this thread, that you are heavily promoting your product.  Just sayin' maybe a sponsorship and an industry page would be better for you and your company.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I do have one of the "other guy's" safes on order... I don't feel I'll regret my decision...  I feel you both make great safes just two different perspectives.

Please don't take offense,you've provided a lot of great information, but feel if you're going to shill you product, you aught to at least support the forum...  just a casual observation

Well, you know I just went thru this thread again to register the degree of "selling" I have been doing. I do take offense. Seems answering a barrage of questions, mostly specific and product related, was the primary theme here. If you see that as selling, then fine. I gain nothing by participating here.If you think that directing a few guys on a small forum toward a better value by telling them facts and explaining technology, you are mistaken. That would be a colossal waste of my time to sell a couple safes. I came here, saw a ton of mis-information and thought it might be nice to clear these matters up. I felt that was a value added contribution, after all, the forums are for finding information. Sorry that doing that required highlighting the strengths or advantages of some of our products. I'm not here to advertise, but I suppose I need to close this dialog and let the myths and rumors persist.

Sorry buddy. We greatly value the debate going on in this forum from all sides. I like the input we are getting from the safe guy, a1abdj, AND the opposing views from Rockola etc. For someone investing in a safe this information is very valuable.  A year ago I was dead set on getting a sturdy and it took real debate like this to point out some glaring design issues with their fire protection.

I posted sturdy's fire claims above because now that I am armed with more information its clear that they are basing their claims on unsupported theories that just don't line up with physics.

The safe guy would and has credited several manufacturers with doing it correctly(albeit differing designs) and only called out one as questionable. Same with a1abdj.

It seems to me that he's just answering questions others have posted on his companies products.  I don't see him shilling for his company and he was very up front when he started posting here where he worked and what he did for the company.  I have enjoyed the information presented and would like him to continue posting.  

Well said. I have learned more from The Safe Guy than any other source I have found, and I hope one person's opinion is not so offensive to him that we all suffer for it.

I looked into buying a TL-15/TL-30 and TL-30x6 in a reduced size for my ARs and valuables, but never saw that safe he designed until I entered the model number as a descriptor. I may NEVER buy any AMSEC product, but I owe this gentleman and his company a deal of thanks for the information provided. So...
THANK YOU!

My apologies, no offense was intended, but apparently taken, and for that I'm sorry... Just my perception

As I said in my post and others have stated, great info,  but in my opinion, seems heavily slanted toward your product and doesn't seem completely unbiased.

I don't want to impede upon the service you are offering  so, please just ignore me... I guess pitching your product here is your right as a member  and not really my place to suggest you become a sponsor of the forum that is likely helping you sell your product... My bad

Ps, I'd hardly consider a forum with 356k registered members and 265k active members a "small" forum...

Ever since a1abj came aboard a couple years ago now there have been 2 members (I won't state their names as it is rather evident who they are) that have done nothing but hassle him and now that TheSafeGuy is here the same is occurring.  I have not seen where either a1abj or TheSafeGuy are "shilling" a specific product but rather stating facts about what they designed/sell.  That isn't "shilling" that is merely stating facts about what they know.  

I sincerely hope that a1abj and TheSafeGuy keep sharing their knowledge as they have much to share while the others just like to be argumentative.  I have no brand loyalty for the most part and buy the best product that meets my demands at a price I can afford.  I did buy an AMSEC BF6030 for my first "safe" and it is very nice, however, that doesn't mean I won't buy a different brand if it meets my requirements, is cheaper, and is local to me as the AMSEC was at the time.

I have been very distrustful of Sturdy's claims about their insulation being better than that of every other safe manufacturers as why would everyone else (many of which have been in business for a long time and have big $$ to throw into R&D) use one method and yet the small company be able to "best" them all.  I also don't care for their advertising techniques but I won't deny that I do like their non fire-lined safes and may get one in the future.

I am definitely thankful for the effort put into the forum by both a1abj and TheSafeGuy.

We are lucky to have members with decades of industry specific experience (+academic credentials) who are willing to educate others.

I have not seen any shilling by either and have seen both complement others products

Maybe you missed something... He stated in his very first post who he works for and what he does. He has answered direct questions about his products and used his first hand knowledge of AMSEC designs to demonstrate and explain those answers. Of course he is going to be biased. He is using his position working for AMSEC to answer questions posed on this forum. It would be a little difficult and foolish to demonstrate using another brand's safe which he doesn't know as much about.

I would expect someone who tells me upfront he works for AMSEC to show me how AMSEC safes are built and what materials they use. I would expect him to demonstrate to me his products are the best and explain to me why.

Unlike many people on this forum who are suspected of working for some companies and deny it, or people who do nothing but show "undeniable and unwavering customer support and loyalty" despite being shown scientific proof and printed material refuting their claims; The Safe Guy tells us what he knows and doesn't make any bones about working for AMSEC.

At no point has he ever stated only his company makes a good safe and everyone else's sucks, nor has he stated that any other company's safes are outright bad. He has shown proof that some testing claims by other companies are diceptive, and shown some are stating "facts" that are simply not true or are not based on scientific evidence. But with each point he has also provided proof to back up his statements that can be verified. And also unlike others who keep blasting out their claims without a shred of proof, he has been willing to explain why their theory's are not plausible without simply saying "nope, you're wrong".

Safe Guy, please ignore the comments. I would expect you to be biased in your answers about AMSEC products, as would anyone with a lick of common sense. Your willingness to share your knowledge and the facts and evidence you have shown, educates people here on the forum (that are willing to learn). Please continue to do so. I know I have learned a few things in the past couple of pages and have become significantly enlightened about some claims made by some companies, and noticed some deceptive advertising by others that I had missed before.

Well said ,

What's with this love-fest? No one can disagree with a1abdj or Safe Guy here?

Look Safe Guy said he believes that a passively lined safe will hit 350F in 20 minutes in a house fire and I don't agree. I haven't disagreed with anything he has said before this but on that I don't agree. There is plenty of "science" that would show it is very capable of working for a typical house fire but despite whether the calculations show that it will work or won't work ... it HAS worked in an 80 minute complete burn down where the contents of the safe suffered NO damage at all.

People have to do their own risk assessment and make their choice of what they want to use for fire protection. For myself, collectible firearms that are damaged are far more expensive than firearms that are destroyed (I can't collect insurance for steam damaged firearms.) When I purchased my gun safe, it without fire lining because at the time that seemed like the right choice. Had to do again, I'd get Sturdy's dry and passive fire lining in their sealed air tight environment then supplement the fire protection by wrapping the outside with a couple sheets of x rated drywall as I have done in the past.

I for one really appreciate the information provided by thesafeguy, I know a fair amount and have learned a lot more in the past month. Long time AR15 Safe Forum readers remember "Snop" who is still a member here (as far as I know) and still works in the safe industry, he finally said phuck it and quit posting because of all the BS. I don't remember his exact last post but it was basically, "I am out of this forum".

I bet you work for sturdy .
      Concrete stronger , why all height end safe use concrete ? Can you show me any tl30x6 safe use fire board like sturdy ? Please look at the photos of unbox sturdy to see how they upgrade and build inside  the safe

     I agree with you " the safe has work in an 80 minute " but the amsec bf has worked in 8 hours complete burn downs where I the contents no damage at all

I was comparison shopping...

Model...............Inside Dimension.....Outside Dimension....Cu. In........Weight.... Best $....UL Rating
CSC4520.........45 x 20 x 21.2........50.5 x 25.5 x 28.9 ........19,080.......768.........$1,549    None
CE3524...........35 x 24 x 20 ...........42 x 31 x 29½ .............  9.7  (ft.).....1,674.......$2,600   TL15
CF3524...........35 x 24 x 20............42 x 31 x 29½ ..............9.7  (ft.)......1,908........$2,900    TL30
CFX352020.....35 x 20 x 20........... 41 x 26 x 29¼...............8.1  (ft.).......1,946.......$3,900   TL30x6

I think there might be two reasons why the CSC4520 has not sold better. 1. It's not well publicized. 2. Its depth is too much for a closet. This is the size safe that I would put in a bedroom closet, but its too deep. Hiding a safe this size is difficult. The smaller safes in the BF or SF series would fit better. (even though they are taller)


BF6032...59.25" x 30" x 21"external size.... 4.75"door thickness...2"wall thickness ....885 weight

SF6032  59" x 30" x 21"....4.25"door  12ga. body  648lbs  and unspecified fireproofing.

I think I am going with the CE3524. I think.

I appreciate the encouragement guys. I'm not a quitter, but I don't appreciate getting flamed because someone happens to disagree. I am here of my own free will, not as an ambassador for my company, but for myself. Believe me, I have deleted many comments when I read them before posting because they would be confrontational in the heat of the moment. I re-read every post I put up here, and I guess I don't see what his definition of shilling is at all. I have not been actively selling, providing references to dealers, comparing prices or slamming competitors. I'm not interested in that. I know you have a significant member base here, but the hit counts on these threads are very small, so it's clear there is a limited group of interested followers. I participate on other forums where a single topic can log ten times as many views with a a fraction of the active members. I know my participation here will have virtually no influence on the market. I think I saw one post where a guy said he was going to buy AMSEC because he was on the fence and learned enough to make a decision.

I have been in this industry a long time. I know many of the owners of these other companies. They all make fine products. Some do it better than others, but I'm not going to dig into construction details of other safes and point out the weakness I see. I have made a strong case for the value of dry fiber insulation as an inferior protection scheme. I admitted that we have never tested that particular approach, even though we made safes that same way in the very early days of fire-resistant safes. So, again I say, those safes are not worthless, they are simply less effective.

The conditions of the thermal event has everything to do with the success or failure of a product. When we started this debate about dry-fiber insulation, I had never heard of this company, and that's the honest truth. This debate came in the form of a comparative "which is better" line of questioning. It was later that I noticed the name brand being mentioned and looked at their website. I have been going to the SHOT every year since 1988, and I have never seen this company at that show. All the players attend. One thing I always do is visit all the other safe companies, share information about new products, exchange pleasantries and gather information. I am not in sales, so I have never been confronted with this brand before. I apologize if someone has taken offense to my technical fact offering, and somehow felt I was attacking the competitor. I had no intention of crushing a small company that is working hard to make a niche in the market and put food on the table at home. From what I can now see on the website and videos, they make an impressive well-built heavy duty unit.

Just because the outcome of a home burn-down shows a great result does not a fire-rating prove. If you don't know the conditions of the event, you can't make any confident claims of value. The only way to show actual performance is under commonly accepted controlled conditions. I think if they had done some real lab testing, their advertising would be less critical of the common protection methods that have been proven. I don't see claims of success in typical testing conditions.  I'm not saying anyone is being deliberately deceptive, but what do you know about a few photos on a website? Under certain conditions, a non-fire lined safe could perform with that level of success. I don't need to explain what that means. Simply put, if the conditions are unknown, then so is the credibility of the result. The oven insulation model is not representative of a safe in a fire, and we have proven that scientifically and logically, so it can't be the basis for a performance example.

As for the estimate of failure I offered as my opinion... that is my opinion, and I said that. Based on my experience, and the science, that is a very generous estimate of performance.

I have also enjoyed reading your posts Safe Guy. You have knowledge in the industry that few people have which I enjoy hearing (I never would have known beeswax melts at 124F or that it is being used in data safes.)

I've got no skin in the game so no big deal to me, I kind of enjoy the debate and always learn something in the process. I'm traveling for the week but I will try to build a case for passive insulators when I get back and be as objective as possible, not that AMSEC will change what they do but it could help someone make a decision one way or another.

The case will be built around a more typical heat exposure of a house fire vs the E119 curve, the transient time of materials coming to temperature then the transfer of heat to the typical contents of a gun safe at steady state. In my view, for a passively lined safe to be successful, it has to slow the rate of heat transfer to the interior of a gun safe to a level where a reasonable delta difference in temperature (100F?) between the heated surface of the interior wall and air can be absorbed by the materials within the safe. The absorptivity (the ability to absorb radiate heat) are very high of all the materials so radiant heat will easily be absorbed as well as emitted (emissivity) to neighboring materials as they heat up. In addition, most all of the materials have high thermal conductivity so with the large amount of surface area of the contents available to absorb heat, I think it should be able to keep up with heat input for quite some time. Anyway, that would be my case for passive insulators.

First of all it helps if your posts are written in English...

Second of all this was covered previously in this thread and others. The case could easily be argued that high-end safes and TL30X6 safes use concrete because it serves a dual purpose in the fact that it is strong enough to resist an attack and it offers desirable thermal properties, not to mention it's very cheap... it does come at a disadvantage though, it's heavy...

And I'm rather certain rockola doesn't work for Sturdy, do you have evidence to prove your side of the bet? How much were you wanting to bet?

I too appreciate your wealth of information and willingness to post here in a rather objective manner. No offense taken at any of your comments.


Yet you present the information you've given us as fact without a whole lot of supporting evidence?



Some of your offerrings may well be facts, but a lot of it is merely scientific theory that hasn't been truly tested. You've even admitted that yourself. The point that we've been trying to make is that not all factors have been taken into consideration when doing the calculations on this scientific theory. And a "true test" would be considered a UL test by many but the fact is that a passively insulated safe isn't going to perform as well when it is empty so the UL testing will show much worse than a real scenario would.

Either way, I think this thread has come full revolution now and we're to the point where neither side will convince the other.


So a company has to attend SHOT show to be considered a real player?

That's the same statement I was going to make.  Seems like he is the one that hasn't done any researching.  If you get all your information from SHOT show, you are missing out on a lot.

Yeah.  I consider myself a player, and I have never been to SHOT.  

I'm probably responsible for more AMSEC BF safe sales than anybody else on the planet, and I have never even received an invite to SHOT, even as AMSEC's guest.  What's up with that?




Somebody hasn't read the whole thread.  

Oh believe me, I have.  It's been a fun one.

I have, along with others, provided scientific proof based on thermodynamic laws with appropriate calculations. NOBODY has provided any such contradictory computations. You think maybe there is a reason for that?



My technical offerings are facts, not assumptions or opinions. I do this for a living. If I was wrong, you would not see the wealth of genuine ratings that we have achieved.

We are not debating the merits of a UL test. Where did that come from? I said that unless you have tested to some industry accepted standards... Those are nowhere near the UL testing regiment and ASTM E119 fire curve. In that environment. ALL of these gunsafes would be toast in 10-15 minutes, I assure you.... ask me how I know! You have no idea how much more severe the UL: test is in comparison to the "industry standard" 1200 degree testing.

Again, people that clearly know nothing talk like they are an authority. Where does this assumed academic or practical experience come from if you have never been there?



When I used the term "player", I am referring to the Gunsafe Manufacturers (not dealers) that own probably more than 95% of the market by unit volume. Those companies attend the SHOT Show and several other trades shows because most of their customers, big and small, attend every year to see what's new and keep eyes on the industry, while looking for a better widget. I didn't mean to insult anyone with that comment, but it's like saying that a guy that builds a dozen cars a year is a "player" when the market represents millions of units with several major international companies. I also recognize that many dealers don't see the value in attending major trade shows, but it is where most companies develop market share and growth. Exposure is very important, particularly when you have a unique product to offer.

Calculations are not "fact" in the sense that you are proclaiming them to be. Scientific calculations are a tool used to arrive at a conclusion that should mirror real-world if used propery. I can try to use a screw-driver to change the wheel on my car and then proclaim that the wheel on my car isn't user-serviceable, but that doesn't mean a thing. Using the wrong calculations, assumptions, conditions, or using the right calculations in the wrong way will give you the wrong answer. You can scream at the top of your lungs that you're right all day long but the fact remains that I believe you've used the tools you have improperly and your conclusion is wrong. Without real-world testing or empirical data to back up your calculations it is no more "right" or "wrong" than the calculations provided by me or rockola; its merely theory at that point.


You're implying that there is no possible way you're wrong, even I admit that I can make mistakes and could be wrong on occasion... once upon a time the world was flat too... and people were killed for proclaiming anything contrary to that... but low-and-behold one day it was discovered that it is, in fact, round. Many people had "evidence" and "facts" to back up their stance that it was flat... until better evidence and facts were discovered to prove it was round... your "evidence" and "facts" may very-well be the same as the evidence and facts that proved the world was flat... it makes sense to you, and from everything you know your evidence is true, but it's still very possible that you're wrong as well....

Your ratings on AMSEC safes have nothing to do with being right or wrong in this scenario, to imply so is using poor logic. There is more than one way to skin a cat and "the way we've been doing it for X decades" isn't necessarily always the best way out there. I'm not saying AMSEC is failing their customers, I'm saying there may be a better way to skin the cat. Your claim that your "ratings" show you're right is worth nothing more than an opinion.

How do you know we haven't "been there" in an offering well outside the safe world that proves precisely the point we're making? The safe experts in here have implied their stance of, "If you don't have experience in making safes then you don't have experience". IMHO, it is negligent and arrogant to completely exclude other industries where experience, developments, etc would prove valuable in your own. The reason technology is improving so fast in this world today is because various industries cross-communicate. One idea can be adapted from X industry and be used to revolutionize Y industry... Are you saying that the safe industry is it's own little world and experience outside of the safe industry is unwelcome and useless to you?

Again, more rhetoric that is focused on impeaching the academics and science, and wildly empty suggestive arguments without any real proof, or theory, to the contrary.

Sure, we learn from other industries all the time. The model of a safe in a fire is actually closely similar to the thermodynamics used in spacecraft design. All the same computations are done, in exactly the same way, using the same principles, constants and assumptions. They were done this way since long before X15 and Mercury first lifted a man into space. They designed all of those systems based on the exact same math we are demonstrating here. If that were irrational "theory", there would have been a lot of dead astronauts. We could never test systems at absolute zero on earth, but our "theory" provided effective engineering design that kept our guys alive and comfortable.

If you had "been there" you would not be arguing. That's how I come to the conclusion you have not been there. Pretty simple. If you do the testing, and understand the simple concepts of the laws of thermodynamics, you would be on the other side of the debate. It's simple. These are not vague ideas that have opinion variables in the equation. They are facts, translated into math, and taught to every college level engineering student in the world. You question that base of knowledge, you are clearly biased in a BIG way.

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I hope this thread can get back on track before the wheels fall off.  I see it like this: if the doctor offers you advice or diagnosis about your health for free but you do not agree or like what you are hearing, don't argue, get a second opinion instead.
Just nod and smile, and do your own research and if possible, testing as well.
From my reading in this forum, many are worried about theft, what would you rather have between your property and the bad guys? steel and "wool", or steel and concrete?
Let us keep it civil, and thank you all for your contributions as I am learning a lot here.

Also, there is a thread shilling safes in the forum, but this isn't it in my opinion.

Question for Thesafeguy, do you mind mentioning what other forums you post on? If you have answered other questions I would like to read the information you have posted. If you do not want to post the forums by name maybe you can I.M. me, thank you.

PM Sent.

My other hobby is flying giant-scale radio control aircraft. My current toy is a 40% scale Russian YAK 54, 121 inch wingspan, 157cc 2-cyl 2 cycle gas engine, 32" propeller, 17 servos, 43 lbs dry. It's a beast!

Cool!  Sounds like a beast