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Posted: 1/8/2009 5:02:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheGrayMan]
First, I want to make it clear that I am not an expert, do not work in the gun safe/safe industry, am not a locksmith, and am not being paid by any company. That said, when I was shopping for my gun safe, I spent almost a year doing so. I called manufactures, did a lot of internet research, talked to locksmiths, and went to 3 of the local gun safe manufacturers factories to talk to the people there and to see the safes in various stages of construction. If I don't mention a company, it doesn't mean they aren't good safes; like I said, I'm no expert. On the other side of the spectrum, if I point out problems with certain safe brands don't take it as a personal insult if you own that particular brand/model. All opinions are just that, opinions. Additionally, I can't cover everything with this topic, if I miss something, I'm sorry. Because of this, I have included links at the bottom that I would recommend you read. With that disclaimer out of the way, lets get started.

"Which gun safe should I buy?". This is one of the most frequently asked questions and is hard to answer because safe needs vary from person to person. Budget, gun collection size, residence issues (apartment dweller, people who move often etc), getting the wife on board, and the features that you may require are often different from person to person. Personally, I have a small gun collection, live in an apartment, and plan to move fairly often for the next several years. Also, being a poor college student made it hard to get the wife on board for a 61 ft^3 8,000 lb $24,000 commercial safe for our small 2 bed apartment.

First, determine your need. What is the value of the items you want your safe to protect? Do you need fire protection? What level of security do you need? Graffunder Safe and Vault company have these recommendations for the value of items vs the protection needed.

Value of Contents       Recommended Graffunder/ISO Rating
Up to $10,000              B-Rate
$10,000 to $50,000      C-Rate
$50,000 to $200,000      E-Rate
$200,000 to $500,000      F-Rate
$500,000 and up      Please contact us for more informaiton

I realize that for most of us (myself including), getting TL listed safes is beyond our budget, but, for those who need to protect large, expensive collections, it makes sense to spend a decent amount of money on a good safe.

Here are some some tips from the Gun Safe Buyers Guide:
DO purchase a safe that is bigger than you think you need.
DO spend more for a safe that offers fire-resistance.
DO look at many different brands of safes before you buy.
DO investigate the safe's specifications.
DO ask about the safe's safeguards against tampering.

As you look at many of the common manufactures, keep in mind that since most are RSC's (Residential Security Locker), they are often similar in construction. Don't be suckered into paying a large amount for one without looking at the REAL security it offers, the fire protection, and comparing it to other brands of RSC's, as well as commercial grade safes once you push past a few thousand dollars. The top of the line Ft. Knox and Liberty cost as much as a E rated Brown commercial safe at ~$14,000. It'd be dumb to spend that much on a RSC when you can get a real safe for that much $$.

Electric or Mechanical lock? I, like many others, prefer mechanical locks. Many of the "help, my gun safe won't open" threads I've seen on here have had electric, but a few have had mechanical. The Gun safe buyers guide says this:
   "For gun safes, we prefer rotary-combination dial locks, although commercial-grade electronic locks are now very good. While less convenient, and slower to open than electronic locks, combination locks are still more durable and trouble-free than the digital locks found on many low- to medium-cost gun safes. Among the combination locks, the Sargent & Greenleaf model 6730 (UL Group II) remains an industry standard. The director of Sturdy Safes noted: "An S&G 6730 will be working fine when your grandchildren have grandchildren.""

If you must have an electric, make sure it's a good one. S&G and LaGard are both good ones. Mark Zanotti of Zanotti Armor tells us "10% of the safes I sell have digital locks, but they represent 90% of the problems down the road. Anything electronic is prone to failure at some point." When I spoke to Ft. Knox, Champion, and Liberty, all of the employees preferred mechanical locks due to the higher number of service calls for digital over the mechanical. Also, you'll probably notice while shopping around that safes with digital locks will often only have a 3-5 year warranty on the lock, where your S&G mechanical locks have a lifetime warranty. Really if you have a quality lock, it's a matter of preference.

What's the deal with steel thickness? The thicker the better, obviously. Most RSL's are 12 gauge, with some 11, 10, and other slightly thicker models.  Sturdy Safe uses 7 and 8 gauge. The problem with the thinner steel is that it is much easier to cut/hack into, and pulling the bolts through a 12 gauge door frame isn't really THAT hard.

Many safe companies will say "one inch door!", but not tell you that it's laminated. My safe door is 12 gauge, drywall, 12 gauge, locking mechanism and bolt work, then another carpeted drywall board. They claim a 4 1/4" thick composite door. Really though, security wise, I have two 12 gauge sheets . There's nothing wrong with that depending on your security needs, but make sure you really understand what you're getting.

Why does bolt coverage matter? In a commercial/TL listed safe, it really doesn't.  Four or five solid bolts on one side behind a 1 1/2 inch solid steel plate door with a 1" plate body will hold up very very well. The problem for most of us is that those types of safes come at a cost too high. For your general RSC with a 12-10 gauge door frame, it's not enough. If you haven't already, watch "Security on Sale". The movie shows a Liberty Centurion being broken into. That particular model has a 12 gauge shell, with bolts on one side. The movie brings up more points than just bolt coverage, but we'll focus on that right now. With "cheaper" gun safes, the more bolt coverage, the better, but really only to a point. This is because with the thin steel, you want to make it as hard as possible to pull those bolts through the door frame. Here's where I'm going to pick on a manufacture, Ft. Knox.

They make great stuff, but their bolt coverage is a little overkill IMHO. The corner bolt system looks cool, but it's really unnecessary. However, both Ft. Knox and Champion recommend getting a safe with bolt coverage on all four sides, minimum of three if you know for sure you will be bolting it down. Also, make sure that your door frame is reinforced somehow.

I feel I need to add just a little bit more concerning bolt coverage. While it is recommended that a thin walled RSC has bolt coverage on all 4 sides, this isn't set in stone. It all depends on the construction. AMSEC's BF line is a RSC, but only uses bolts on two sides. In my less than expert opinion, this is more than adequate for it's design. The BF safe as a 1/2" plating on the door which will make it extremely rigid. Also, the body is constructed by 10 gauge steel, 2" of concrete amalgamate, and then 16 gauge steel. This type of construction is similar to that seen in a TL listed safe. This makes it so that prying the door out would be far too much effort, and an attack on the walls would be more productive.

Why Commercial safe can get away without bolt coverage on 4 sides:


What do these stupid fire ratings mean? Really, not much. Most safe manufactures use drywall. It works, but in the event of a fire, it's likely your guns will be ruined unless you can get them out of the safe quickly. Most safes don't have the boards between two layers of steel, so how it works is when the gypsum board is heated, it increases the vapor inside the safe, dropping the flash point and lowering the temperature until it's all evaporated, at which point the temperature in the safe climbs quickly, and everything is gone. If the fire is put out before that point, the safe is cooled with water, causing the dew point in the safe to drop, and the moisture will condense on your guns. IF the safe is still operational (it's likely it won't be), you can get them out quickly, dry, and oil them. However, in many fires, the pot metal used for the S&G lock can melt, setting off the auto lockers. Or the dial/electric lock melts off. This is a good thing against torch attacks, but bad in a fire. Once the locksmith comes out and opens your safe, you'll have a lot of rust. Most of it will be surface rust (depending on how fast the locksmith gets out), but you could have very damaged guns.

Gun safe manufactures are also not held to any standardized testing of fire protection. That's why you'll see Omega ratings, Phoenix ratings, and a bunch of other impressive sounding stuff. Really, it's a crapshoot. Of safes that have drywall, liberty seems to use the most, and I was most impressed with them. Sturdy safe uses a ceramic blanket, and most commercial TL listed safes will use a concrete amalgamate.

My advice, shoot for an hour, make sure there's a expanding seal around the door, and insure everything in the safe anyway.

Relockers, anti-drill plates, ball bearing plates, internal vs external hinges? Get a safe that has at least ONE relocker. Most do, so that shouldn't be an issue. Also, you'll want a safe that has some sort of extra protection around the lock. Some examples are Ft. Knox and Liberty (high end only) Drill stop hard plate with recessed multi-bearings, Liberty's Triple case hardened steel plates, granulated carbide plates, diamond Armor-Plate ets. Some safes will also use a glass re-locker behind the plate as an additional level of security. As far as hinges go, it's a preference thing. I like the look of internal hinges, but now that I have my safe, I wish I had external. You don't think that having the door only open 90 degrees is a big deal, until you start using it. My next safe will have external hinges so I can actually use the other side of my safe.

I got my safe! Now what? Congrats! First, if there's a serial number on the safe (often on the back), take it off if it's a sticker. This is so if you lose the combo, you can call the manufacture and get it. Put it on an electrical device that would be unlikely to get stolen in a burglary, like the bottom of your alarm.

Next, bolt it down. In the video you watched earlier, you'll notice the first thing they did was knock it on it's back. That wasn't done for any theatrical purpose, its to gain leverage on the door, which makes it a lot easier to break open. Preferably, bolt it down in a corner with the hinge side away from the wall. No leverage, no breaking in through the door, and they'll have to make a lot of noise cutting through a safe wall.

Depending on where you live, you'll want some sort of dehumidifier in the safe. The Golden rod is a heater, not a dehumidifier, but works well in most cases. I've heard of people from the south that say they need a Golden rod, plus silica packs because the humidity is so high. I live in the desert, and don't use anything.

Lights. Many upper end safes come with lights. Having lights in a safe is very handy. There are TONS of different ways to accomplish this, from Christmas lights, to professional kits. I use touch activated LED lights, and they work OK, for now.

Last, fill it up, and buy another one, or a bigger one.

I hope this has been somewhat helpful. If I missed anything, let me know. If you disagree with something, let me know.

References:
Gun Safe Buyers Guide

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq/faq.htm

Graffunder Safe

The Gun safe Maze

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XIIIB1b.html

So you have a Safe (scroll down the page for the section)

Choosing a Gun safe

Recommendations:
Buy the biggest, best safe you can afford. I won't recommend a particular brand, but there are safe manufactures listed at the bottom of the first link, Gun Safe Buyers Guide.

ETA: Added a little more in the bolt coverage section.
ETA: Brown safe added some new stuff, old links were bad. I added the link for their safe buyers guide, and feel that their new guide is even better than their old one.

Link Posted: 1/8/2009 5:37:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Great post!  Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/8/2009 7:18:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Cant we get this tacked???
Link Posted: 1/8/2009 10:42:04 PM EDT
[#3]
when i was asking about gunsafes, i learned that gunsafes that have remington, or browning on the front, are usually made by a well known safe company, but without the 'extra' features like re-lockers or a hardened plate for example.
this is why they cost less and seem like a good deal.
Link Posted: 1/9/2009 3:10:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Great post.

Only two points to add:

Some safes will also use a glass re-locker behind the plate as an additional level of security.


As far as I know, Champion is the only RSC manufacturer to offer a glass relocker. It is standard on the Crown series and an option on the Triumph series.

Preferably, bolt it down in a corner with the hinge side away from the wall. No leverage, no breaking in through the door, and they'll have to make a lot of noise cutting through a safe wall.


Good point. But a 12 gauge RSC can be fire-axed with the blade and a 10 gauge RSC can be pierced with the flip side pick. Not enough noise to alert the neighbors. Best solution is to enclose all sides (in a closest, build walls around it, ???) and make the thief attack the door.

Here are the Sturdy pics in case someone hasn't seen them: Sturdy 12-10-8-7 Gauge Page
Link Posted: 1/9/2009 3:44:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AR15Texan] [#5]
My contribution:

According to UL testing a safe that can withstand an attack by two people with common hand tools, i.e. hammers, crowbars, pry devices, for 5 minutes gets a rating of Residential Security Container, RSC.  Virtually all consumer safes on the market that actually have a UL rating, are rated RSC.  The ratings go up depending on how long the safe can survive the attack.

What constitutes a successfully attack?  Making a specific size opening in the safe (6"x 6"square can't remember the exact size but it might be 10" x 10").  UL also rates real safes by how long they can withstand an attack by two people using cutting torches, drills, and other power tools.  These ratings are typically A, B, and C.  Look at AMSEC's "Brute" series of safes, they also cost thousands of dollars.

With that knowledge you should understand that no safe will protect the contents from attack beyond an hour.  The purpose of the safe against an attack is to buy time for a countering response or deter criminals without the proper tools or knowledge of the safe's weakness.

A quality safe should have:
- a plate steel door, not laminate, 1/4" or more.  Once the thickness is beyond 1/2", most are laminated to gain more thickness.  My question is how strong is the bonding of these laminates?  Note that almost every safe manufacturer is going to advertise their safe as having a 3", 5", etc. thick door.  Don't be fooled, these doors usually have a 10 or 12 gauge steel skin with 3" or 5" of fire resistant sheetrock sandwiched inside.  How much defense do you think sheetrock is against a drill?  Above all else know exactly what the construction and layers of the door are.

- a body with steel skins on the outside as well as the inside no less than 10 gauge, 1/8" is better.  Fire resistant material in between the layers.

- continuous welding on all seams of the body, door, and door frame

- same thickness steel on the top, bottom, and back as the sides.  Many safe manufacturers put the better steel on the sides and cut costs by skimping on the back and top.

- fire resistant protection of 1800 degrees F or more for at least 90 minutes.  This is another area where safe advertisements mislead.  First UL does not have a fire rating procedure, so many "independent" labs are used to "certify" a safe's fire protection.  Second, many safe manufacturers put the thermocouple (probe used to measure high heat) at the bottom of the safe where it can be hundreds of degrees cooler.  Third, the stopwatch usually starts when then furnace is turned on not when the heat of the furnace reaches the advertised rating.

For example, Safe A may be rated a 1,200F for 1 hour and the testing went like this.  Thermocouple in the bottom of the safe, start the furnace, measure the furnace temperature after one hour.  If the thermocouple within the interior of the safe does not exceed the charring point of paper, 350F (this is the industry standard) for 1-hour then it gets a 1-hour rating at the maximum temperature of the furnace, in this case 1,200F.  This does not mean the entire safe was immersed in a 1,200F flame for one hour.  Only that some thermocouple in the furnace, perhaps in the flame jet, reached a temperature of 1,200F before the interior of the safe exceeded 350F.

- a heat expandable seal on the door frame.  Note many times the contents of a safe are not damaged destroyed by fire but by water from the high pressure hoses used to put out the fire.

- high quality dial combination, e.g Sargent and Greenleaf Group II or better.  Note some safe manufacturers put the S&G dial lock bezel on the safe but use a cheap Chimcom lock.  You think you have a genuine S&G lock but all you really have is the dress up piece.

- ample size for current and future protection needs

- holes in the bottom plate for bolting to the floor

- high quality boltworks, machined gears not cast or plastic.  This goes for the dial lock too.

- 1" or better diameter hardened bolts

- numerous bolts per side, on all four sides.  Many safes don't have any bolts on the bottom.  So what happens if the criminals tip the safe over?

- all bolts should be active (meaning they should retract with the turning of the safe handle).  Many safe manufacturers leave the hinge side bolts "dead".  Meaning they do not retract into the door, they are fixed.  The problem with this is some clearance must be allowed for the "dead" bolts to not interfere with the closing of the door.  This clearance becomes an easy place to pry.

- the placement of the hinge does not matter, it should only carry the weight of the door.  Any safe that requires the hinge to secure the door is a bad safe, this is the job of the bolts.

- relocker systems, such as glass plate relocker, vibration relocker

- drill deflectors, usually a hardened plate impregnated with diamonds or a steel plate with an array of hardened ball bearings.

- random placement of the relocker and bolt work systems, so a criminal can't get the drawings and know exactly where to drill

- a 100% guarantee replacement plan if the safe is subjected to attack or fire.  It is also nice to have a plan that covers a safe driller to open your old safe.  In most attacks on consumer safes the criminal knocks off the combination lock and tries to attack through the hole.  If the criminal is unsuccessful you now have a safe that can't be opened.  You then need to call a safe driller to come open your safe at $120+ per hour.  How long will it take to drill your safe open?  Some replacement plans cover this cost as well as the disposal of the old safe and the shipping and installation of the new safe.  This can add up to many hundreds of dollars without this sort of replacement plan.

In order to meet the requirements from the list above one would need to spend $4,000 or more.  A safe like this would weigh well over a ton and require experienced safe movers and a reinforce floor.  A standard slab foundation will not carry the weight.  A rated floor similar to a garage floor would be required.  At this point it might be feasible to get a high security vault door and design a vault around it.  Any lesser safe is a compromise, but it is better than no safe.

Some other alternatives are floor safes for small items, i.e. cash, jewelry, and precious metals.  The steel body is thin with a high security face door.  The protection is gained through mounting the safe in a concrete rebar reinforced floor.

Some safe companies are:  Graffunder, AMSEC, Champion, Ft. Knox, Cannon, Liberty, Sturdy Gun, Patriot, and Brown.  Many of the gun manufacturer's safes, i.e. Winchester, Cabelas, Remington, etc. are merely rebadged offerings from Cannon and Liberty.
Link Posted: 1/9/2009 6:26:37 PM EDT
[#6]
This is an awesome thread.
Link Posted: 1/14/2009 12:30:50 AM EDT
[#7]
You might try these guys. If you live around them you can even pick it up and save shipping. No middleman either. Factory direct.  http://www.smithsecuritysafes.com/
Link Posted: 1/15/2009 10:36:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 1/15/2009 11:33:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Bolted. (tacked)

Thanks NorCal!
Link Posted: 2/3/2009 8:27:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Good explanation of safe ratings:  

http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/content.php?c=burg_ratings

BURGLARY  & GUN SAFES:

California Department of Justice Burglary Rating   (CDOJ)

Regulatory Gun Safe StandardsDOJ regulatory standards require a gun safe to meet either:
All of the following requirements:

Shall be able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage.
Shall have a locking system consisting of at minimum a mechanical or electronic combination lock.  The mechanical or electronic combination lock utilized by the safe shall have at least 10,000 possible combinations consisting of a minimum three numbers, letters, or symbols.  The lock shall be protected by a case-hardened (Rc 60+) drill-resistant steel plate, or drill-resistant material of equivalent strength.
Boltwork shall consist of a minimum of three steel locking bolts of at least ½ inch thickness that intrude from the door of the safe into the body of the safe or from the body of the safe into the door of the safe, which are operated by a separate handle and secured by the lock.
Shall be capable of repeated use.  The exterior walls shall be constructed of a minimum 12-gauge thick steel for a single-walled safe, or the sum of the steel walls shall add up to at least .100 inches for safes with two walls.  Doors shall be constructed of a minimum of two layers of 12-gauge steel, or one layer of 7-gauge steel compound construction.
Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door.  Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler’s lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.
or All of the following requirements:
Is listed as an Underwriters Laboratories Residential Security Container;
Is able to fully contain firearms;
Provides for the secure storage of firearms.
BURGLAR SAFES:

Burglar safes are usually made of solid steel plate or a combination of solid steel and composite fill material such as concrete. These safes are divided into categories based on the level of protection delivered and the testing endured. Here we will discuss only seven classes:  B-Rate, U.L. RSC Rating,  B/C Rate, C-Rate, U.L. TL-15, U.L. TL-30 and TL-30 X6.







B-RATE SAFES (ALSO U.L. RSC, RESIDENTIAL SECURITY CONTAINERS):

B-Rate is a catchall rating for essentially any box with a lock on it. The safe industry had an unwritten standard of ¼ inch body, ½ inch door. As steel prices (and shipping costs) increased manufacturers tried many things to reduce their costs. No tests are given to provide this rating. When buying a B-rate safe, look at things such as lock work, hard plates, and relocks.  

U.L. Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools. See U.L. TL-15 and TL-30 descriptions below for "net working time" description.

B/C-Rate Safes
This is a catchall rating for safes with at least a 1/4" steel body, 1/2 inch door PLUS additional 10 or 12 guage metal layers where composite fire resistant material is also deployed. No tests are given to provide this rating. Look at the lock work, relocks and other features when making your decision.

C-Rate Safes
This is defined as a ½ inch thick steel box with a 1-inch thick door and a lock. As before, NO tests are given to provide this rating. Look at the lock work, relocks and other features when making your decision.



––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––


Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL) Ratings
http://www.ul.com

TL-15
Safes given a U.L. TL-15 rating have all passed standardized tests defined in UL Standard 687 using the same tools and usually the same group of testing engineers.Construction Requirements
U.L. listed Group II, 1 or 1R combination lock.
750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used.
Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1" open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous 1/4" penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile
strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
One hole 1/4" or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.
The label means that the safe successfully resisted entry (i.e. opening the door or making a 6" square opening entirely through the door or front face) for a NET working time of 15 minutes using "…common hand tools, drills, punches hammers, and pressure applying devices." Net working time means simply "when the tool comes off the safe the clock stops". There are over fifty different types of attacks that can be used to gain entrance into the safe. Usually they will try only 2 or 3 based on what they know about the product, and they know a lot.
TL-30
Construction requirements are identical to the TL-15 above. Tests are essentially the same as the TL-15 tests except for the net working time. Testors are allowed 30 minutes and a few more tools (abrasive cutting wheels and power saws) to help them gain entrance. The label signifies the testors were unable to open the door or make a 6" square opening entirely through the door or front face within 30 minutes. Keep in mind these engineers have the manufacturing blue prints and can disassemble the safe being tested before the test begins to see how it works. They know their stuff. TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
Other Considerations
When you begin the search for a safe it is a good idea to speak to your insurance agent and see if a particular type of safe will reduce your insurance costs. Many times you can justify the additional expense of a higher security safe because of the premium reduction. Remember no safe is burglar proof, you are buying time. The longer it takes to break in the greater the chance to be caught, and thieves don’t like to get caught.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
10 Things You Didn't Know About UL's Safe Testing
The best safecrackers in the business never steal a penny. They work for UL.


UL has been testing and certifying safes for more than 80 years. The first safe tested for burglary resistance was in 1923 and the first bank vault in 1925.


Chisels, wenches, screwdrivers, power saws, cutting torches, crowbars, abrasive cutting wheels, jackhammers, even specified amounts of nitroglycerin are just a few of the "tools" UL technicians use during a safe attack. The idea is to test safes to worst-case scenarios. They use tools that could be found at any construction site or hardware store. They also analyze blueprints as if the burglar might have blueprints of the design and attack its weakest points to evaluate the safe for certification.


UL's safe attack tests are conducted by a two-person crew. The object is to create an opening large enough to withdraw "valuables" (anywhere from 2- to 6-square-inches on a safe and up to 96-square-inches on a vault), activate the locking mechanism so the door opens or to cut as many bolts from the door as necessary to pry it open before the time specified in the rating requirement expires.


Safes are rated for their resistance to attack against specific tools for a set period of time. There are a dozen different ratings, everything from ATM machines, to gun safes to bank vaults. For example, a safe that bears a Class TRTL-15X6 rating, which might be found in a jewelry store, should resist a hand tool and torch attack for a minimum of 15 minutes. A TRTL-30X6-rated safe, which would protect important documents or store money, should withstand an attack for 30 minutes. The ultimate safe rating-a TXTL60-should withstand an hour's worth of attack that includes the use of 8 ounces of nitroglycerin.


Because of the size and weight of certain safes and vault doors, it is not always practical to have the product shipped to UL's laboratory locations. UL's burglary protection staff has traveled to destinations such as Japan, France, Israel, England, Finland, Taiwan and India.


In addition to burglary protection ratings, UL also rates safes for their fire resistance protection. Class 350 safes protect paper documents, Class 150 safes protect magnetic tape and photographic film, while Class 125 safes protect floppy disks. In addition to the Class Rating, safes obtain an hourly rating for fire resistance-anywhere from 30 minutes to four hours.


Another cool test UL runs on safes is an impact test. This test simulates a safe falling though multiple stories of a building-resulting from a fire that has weakened the structure. After the safe is heated to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit in a furnace, it's raised three stories and dropped onto a pile of bricks. In order to meet the requirement, the safe can't pop open. Temperatures inside can't rise to above 300 degrees Fahrenheit and sample papers left inside have to be readable.


The specialized suits you sometimes find technicians wearing are not just for show. Their entire ensemble, including protective coat, helmet and gloves, protects the crew against the adverse effects of sparking. After all, safety can't be taken for granted, even within the walls of UL.


Safes are just one of the 19,000 product categories that UL tests and certifies. While UL's burglary protection team cracks combinations, shatters glass and fires .44-caliber bullets at body armor, other UL engineers and technicians keep busy testing everything from TVs, coffee makers and holiday light strings to fire extinguishers, medical CAT scan equipment and building materials.

Link Posted: 8/23/2009 10:37:28 AM EDT
[#11]
One thing to remember about pricing a safe is including the cost to get it where you want it.
It cost me $300 to get the safe moved from my porch into the house.
That's with no scratches to the safe, my walls, or my hardwood floors.

I believe no safe is impenetrable and in the end it comes down to what your willing to
pay.  In my case the safe is in my dining room so looks did play a part in the decision.

The Sturdy safe may have thicker steel but I'm leery of any company using chicks
to sell their product- same as EAA guns.

I have a Browning Gold Series.
Link Posted: 3/1/2010 4:03:16 PM EDT
[#12]
[span style='font-weight: bold;']
Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door.  Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler’s lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.


I was going to ask about internal vs. external hinges.  Am I wrong for eliminating safes with external hinges from my list of possibilities?
Link Posted: 3/1/2010 6:57:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
[span style='font-weight: bold;']
Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door.  Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler’s lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.


I was going to ask about internal vs. external hinges.  Am I wrong for eliminating safes with external hinges from my list of possibilities?


Yes, you are wrong.  Any decent RSC/Safe will be protected by the bolts on the door on the hinge side also.  You should be able to cut the external hinges off and the safe still be as secure as with the hinges intact.  The advantage to having external hinges is that the door is often removable for transporting (lighter weight when seperate), and also allows the door to swing open further than a door with internal hinges.
Link Posted: 3/3/2010 9:54:45 AM EDT
[#14]
Yes, I would certainly look at safes with external hinges as well. In fact, all three of the safe's I'm looking at for my next safe have external hinges. They're all TL rated safes as well...

My current safe has interior hinges. I hate them. It sure would be nice to be able to use the other 1/2 of my safe.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 5:26:06 AM EDT
[#15]
so is there a list of companies that make RSC vs making gun vaults/safes?
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 9:07:39 AM EDT
[#16]
Pretty much 98% of the gun safes out there are RSC's  

Graffunder, Top Dollar and you can get them in higher ratings than RSC.   Sturdy Safe Co.  They make safes that exceed the RSC standard without breaking the bank
AMSEC USA. These guys make a TL-30 which is a real "safe" but they are heavy and expensive.  Im sure there are some more out there, but these are the most popular.   The Sturdy will probably give you the most bang for the buck.
Link Posted: 3/22/2010 8:33:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 13f] [#17]
The Sturdy safe may have thicker steel but I'm leery of any company using chicks
to sell their product- same as EAA guns.


I thought the exact same thing!

However, it makes some sense considering the "chick" in the advertisment for Sturdy is the owners daughter.  I would think the owner of Sturdy is nothing more than a proud father.

However it were me, I'd cover her up and sit in my underware drinking a beer on the porch with a shotgun on my lap waiting for the guys to come by instead of putting her up on the internet!

Somewhat nice to know that they work together in todays big business.

Link Posted: 4/5/2010 9:58:54 PM EDT
[#18]




Originally Posted By 13f:



The Sturdy safe may have thicker steel but I'm leery of any company using chicks

to sell their product- same as EAA guns.




I thought the exact same thing!



However, it makes some sense considering the "chick" in the advertisment for Sturdy is the owners daughter. I would think the owner of Sturdy is nothing more than a proud father.



However it were me, I'd cover her up and sit in my underware drinking a beer on the porch with a shotgun on my lap waiting for the guys to come by instead of putting her up on the internet!




Somewhat nice to know that they work together in todays big business.







I think another reason he puts her in front of every safe, is for size comparison. Visually, it is nice to see how big X safe is compared to Y safe - and having someone standing there helps with this.
Link Posted: 4/6/2010 1:22:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By LIINTLICKR:

Originally Posted By 13f:
The Sturdy safe may have thicker steel but I'm leery of any company using chicks
to sell their product- same as EAA guns.


I thought the exact same thing!

However, it makes some sense considering the "chick" in the advertisment for Sturdy is the owners daughter. I would think the owner of Sturdy is nothing more than a proud father.

However it were me, I'd cover her up and sit in my underware drinking a beer on the porch with a shotgun on my lap waiting for the guys to come by instead of putting her up on the internet!

Somewhat nice to know that they work together in todays big business.



I think another reason he puts her in front of every safe, is for size comparison. Visually, it is nice to see how big X safe is compared to Y safe - and having someone standing there helps with this.


You are correct. It really does help get an idea of how big they are and I'd rather look at her than some dude.

I have talked to them both on the phone several times. Great people.

BTW, she put herself in those pictures. She is the one that created the website. My favorite picture is the one where she has her foot up trying to pry the door open.

Link Posted: 5/17/2011 11:09:11 PM EDT
[#20]
I bought a Sturdy safe 4/29/92 right from the factory in Fresno while I was living there. It has been a very reliable safe and I'm thinking about buying another.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 10:58:08 PM EDT
[#21]
What does 8m10 mean?
Link Posted: 6/24/2011 9:43:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By HH1010:
What does 8m10 mean?


In what context? I'm not seeing 8m10 anywhere.
Link Posted: 6/25/2011 1:49:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By RckClimber:
Originally Posted By HH1010:
What does 8m10 mean?


In what context? I'm not seeing 8m10 anywhere.


It is on several liberty safes and I dont think it is anything with the model.  on a printed label inside the door and their website
Link Posted: 4/20/2012 4:55:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Originally Posted By HH1010:
Originally Posted By RckClimber:
Originally Posted By HH1010:
What does 8m10 mean?


In what context? I'm not seeing 8m10 anywhere.


It is on several liberty safes and I dont think it is anything with the model.  on a printed label inside the door and their website


It's the UL listing for their RSC rating approval.
Link Posted: 5/19/2012 11:51:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Thanks for the information.  Still undecided on my safe purchase, but at least I feel educated.
Link Posted: 9/3/2012 4:56:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Sweet post im saving up for a sturdy safe right now.
Link Posted: 7/12/2015 3:11:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Sweet post im saving up for a sturdy safe right now.
View Quote


I too am looking at getting a Sturdy safe, mainly because they don't have any problem customizing it any way I want.

I'm taking the basic safe and mounting it in a walk-in bedroom closet such that the back and right sides (and bottom, of course) are inaccessible to an attacker. Then I'm loading the front, left sides and top to the max with steel and stainless steel which will give it significant torch protection.

If you can't have TRTLX6 equivalent protection then maybe having it everywhere they would typically attach will be enough.

What I don't know is how to anchor it as securely as possible to the floor so that an attacker can't (easily) assault it with pry bars to knock it over. It's standard oak flooring over an OSB "silent floor" / Nascor joists and I don't know what kind of anchoring bolts would be the most effective.

Maybe order the safe with 2X as many bolt holes?

Ideas appreciated.
Link Posted: 7/12/2015 7:01:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NYresq1] [#28]
Do you really think someone is going to torch open your safe inside a bedroom closet? Using a cutting torch would generate tremendous heat in any enclosed area and probably burn the house to the ground before any sizeable hole was made in even a mild steel box.

The realistic attach will be with prybars or with cutting tools like a sawzall, which will cut through a sturdy safe with little problem with a pack of metal blades. Do yourself a favor and read the big thread about safes. Its worth the time to educate yourself before spending money on what you think matters vs what is easily defeated.

You arent going to get TRTLx6 protection or even any mild protection adding a few pieces of stainless steel inside a closet. Torch attack on a residential gun safe is just not a realistic threat you are going to face.
Link Posted: 7/12/2015 7:06:35 PM EDT
[#29]
This is the thread here I am referring to.
Filled with lots of information from people who design real safes, some who are professional safe crackers as well as ones who work on real security. From info about the UL testing to fire protection to some of the blatant lies told by some "safe" manufacturers about their products.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_46/401046_Questions_for_AMSEC_TheSafeGuy.html

Link Posted: 6/27/2016 1:13:50 AM EDT
[#30]
+1
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 8:49:06 AM EDT
[#31]
No reference on installation?
What tools to drill into your slab? What bolts to use, and tricks of the trade?
Link Posted: 2/19/2019 12:38:43 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
No reference on installation?
What tools to drill into your slab? What bolts to use, and tricks of the trade?
View Quote
I used 1/2” wedge anchor bolts and a 12” concrete bit with a 20v dewalt hammer drill on low speed applying consistent moderate pressure. I drilled 4 holes entirely through the slab and pounded the wedge anchor bolts in with the washers and nuts threaded on the last threads. I then torqued them down. I made sure to get a length of bolt to sink deep into the slab and still have enough left for the floor washers and nuts. And drilling the hole all the way through was so when I have to move it I just remove the nuts and pound the bolt through the slab with a hammer.l, lesson learned from the last time I had to pick my 1100lb safe with 3” floor off of 4” of bolts sticking out of the floor.

Hope that helps someone.
Link Posted: 2/21/2019 12:12:06 AM EDT
[#33]
I think the most dangerous tool that can be used most of the time these days is a hand-held grinder, corded or even cordless. Anything thinner than 10 gauge is going to be defeated somewhat quickly with one of those and a handful of discs. It's possible using one to open a hole in a "gun safe" could start a fire in your house, too, depending on where it is.
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