So im getting all my ducks in a row before i apply for my FFL.  
Im set on doing an an LLC first, then get my business license with the state, then ffl.
Im going to run this business on my property, in a separate from my house, detacted brick building.  I also have another 60x40ft workshop to paint/refinish/machine in.

Here the question:  would the LLC protect any lawsuits or claims against my property?  
I was going to have a DBA to run the FFL, and have a lease agreement drawn up between the LLC and the FFL.

Is this need?  Or will the llc protect my personal assets?  We also have an Ag exemption and raise livestock for sale, etc.  We are considered a small farm by the USDA

This is a great question! I like the idea of leasing the space so that the LLC only has rights to whatever it is leasing and not the whole property. However, the LLC would need to lease it from you as the FFL is not an entity - it is just a license that the entity (LLC) has.

Ok my understanding of LLC is its own thing, and the FFL w/Business license would be an seperate entity, but under the umbrella of the LLC.  Is that not correct?

In theory, an LLC provides a wall between the business and the business' owner. In reality, that wall is only as tall and strong as the skills of the lawyers coming after you. You can basically assume that if the LLC were to get sued, your ass is going to be on the line with it. You might successfully defend your wall but, then again, you might not.

ETA: My FFL is in my LLC's name. That has not stopped anybody extending me credit from requiring (and getting) a personal guarantee. It sure seems like LLC walls are pretty weak.

It is not correct. Someone or some entity must hold the FFL. If that someone is not you, then it is some other entity, like an LLC or partnership or professional corporation. Usually in going the LLC route, you'd form the LLC, have the LLC get the business license, and apply for the FFL in the LLC's name.

You could form a blanket LLC to handle your rentals, then another LLC to hold the FFL and get the business license, I guess, if you're into redundancy and want to clearly separate the real estate stuff from the FFL stuff, though that's adding still more paperwork to keep up with.

If you have this little understanding of the FFL business and how LLCs, FFLs and business licenses work, you probably need to do quite a bit more research and/or talk to a business coach or the like to get your business plan in order. A real estate or family planning attorney to guide you in setting up your real estate holdings would be in order, too.

As it was explained to me by some smart lawyer guys, an LLC can isolate/protect you pretty well if you are not personally performing any of the work of the business.
I like the tall wall analogy.

If you are doing the work yourself (maybe gunsmithing) and you provided all the assets to the business (whether that is an LLC or whatever) at the end of the day, it can easily be shown that you have personal interest in the business, so if you screwed up by doing something wrong (when you performed the work yourself), you can then be held personally liable if the assets of the business are not enough to cover whatever damages you caused.

Now if your employee screwed up, and he is just an employee (who does not control the business) then the liability will be limited to the business/LLC itself.

Basically if you come up with all the business assets, and personally involve yourself in the work of the business, then an LLC really doesn't offer the protection most people think it does. It's an illusion. An illusion costing lots of your (or someone's) time in paperwork.

With that in mind, I'm setting my gunsmithing business up as a sole proprietorship. Way less paperwork and I just keep the pre-86 dealer samples when I retire and close up shop.

There is really very little protection when forming and LLC, in fact for my wife's business, we dissolved the LLC because it offered little protection and was just a whole bunch more paperwork, she is now set up as a sole proprietorship and it has worked out a lot better, we secured a liability insurance policy for way less than they charged us for the LLC and we don't have to file annual reports with the state on the LLC.

The amount of liability is determined by your states laws, here our licenses are under the authority of the Secretary of State, may be different in your state.

Sounds like you need to sit down and talk with attorney that is well versed in your state laws as well as local laws, I know I had to fight tooth and nail with our local zoning commission because I hold a FFL 7 and even living remotely the county went bonkers because they thought I was going to be turning out guns left and right, which I don't and that was not the purpose of securing my FFL.

You should be able to secure the services of an attorney in your area that is well versed in your particular location concerning FFL licenses, most places have at least a couple of them that are.

I think it took us about 10 minutes to set up our LLC. It was just one simple form, IIRC.


ETA: if the OP goes the LLC route, the LLC will be the FFL, not the OP. So, when the OP wants to buy a gun from his own business he'll have to do a 4473 and run a NICS check on himself. Not a big deal, but . . .

google "piercing the corporate veil" (yes, I know an LLC is not a corporation).

You should be ok as long as you practice sound business practices. Don't write checks for personal items/services from your business account. Don't deposit checks/cash intended for the business in your personal account (even if you later move the money from your personal to business account). Keep everything separate. Pay yourself.

You can see other examples on google. One interesting one was an attorney trying to pierce the veil because the owner didn't sign a document with his official title (eg singed it "John Smith" instead of "John Smith, CEO") I don't think that was successful, but they will pick on the tiniest things if you are in their crosshairs.

I wasn't referring simply to the act of creating it. There are annual reports and fees to the state as well.

Not in my state.

The LLC when done right can seperate the owners personal property when the good faith efforts of the LLC and it's employees result in bad things. However, it does not absolve the employee (yourself) from personal legal responsibility when those bad things happen. You should write up an operating agreement.

Thank you for all the info first of all.

What im looking to do, first and foremost is get my FFL, to do gunsmithing/cerakote/gunkote/machining, run it on my property (which is a 10 acre ranch) from a separate building then my house.  I just dont want the customers/ATF to come into my house.  I want that part of my life seperate from my FFL part.  I was hoping to avoid a $500 visit to a lawyer, BUT i also know that if it saves my assest, a$$, makes my life simple and saves me $10 in the end, it was worth every penny.  I make not claim to understand all legal terms in business, but i know FFL/ATF firearm regs in relation to ffl operations.  I have few years in Gunshop Management.

I will come up with an Operation Plan/SOP.  I was looking at the LLC due to the fact that im retired, and the income from the LLC is a pass through in tax as income.  I will futher explore the Sole Proprietorship, but understood LLC offer more of a "wall".

Now the next question:
On the inspection check list part of the FFL (which i have never been apart of before), here is what my brick building has:  
2 rolling steel doors with locks built into the doors, and also has dead bolt locks on the roller tracks.
2 Metal Doors (with deadbolt and doorknob locks).  1st door is the entrance to the building, the 2nd door is the entrance to a separate room where i will conduct all business.  This room has 2 fire proof safes, 1 window with AC unit.

I was curious if metal bars would be needed to installed on the window to pass?
I also have read several post in this sub forum about alarms, and the ATF FAQ makes a point about alarm systems, but doesnt say its required.  
Im not opposed to any of these possible improvements in any way, just trying to understand the level at which ATF is going to say "that meets our requirements" so im not throwing money at stuff that is pointless.

This will shock you, but there is no requirement to have secure storage.

During my pre-license inspection the ATF guy told me the ATF didn't care if I kept my guns in the middle of a pasture so long as everything was logged in and out correctly and all the guns on the log were accounted for. The ATF can't require any particular type of security as there are no security requirements in the law. They can offer suggestions and describe "best practices" but if it's not specifically in the law they really can't say shit.

Many confuse the ATF secure storage requirement to mean a dealer must have alarms, safes, guard dogs, bars on the windows, etc.....wrong.

I knew about the child safety lock laws, was just curious how the check list inspection goes.

Ive always done paper 4473, with both an old paper and electronic log book with a POS system.  Is the new 4473 electronic forms better/faster/cooler?  Does anyone use them or use the old school paper?

Now a NFA/Class 3 dealer question-  if i get a 07 ffl, then a II SOT, what happens to any samples i make or aquire if i disolve the FFL?  Im getting some conflicting info, if its LLC, or just me, etc.

If its easier for all members, i can just go to rocketffl or ffl123.  I feel i maybe wasting some peoples time, which was not my intent to spam or jabber on with pointless topics.  Just over researching all this before i file for anything.  I just read a few topic here that said ask away to save money, and help fellow members.

Don't give those "we get you prepared for an FFL" guys a dime.

Search Google. Plenty of FFL walk throughs there. Getting an FFL is quite simple. Get a letter from your local municipality stating you can run a gun business on your property. Once you have that, move forward.

As stated, secure storage is not a part of the inspection.

You are bringing up different things when you start talking electronic. You can be digital or paper on 4473 forms, actually submitting the background check (and receiving the subsequent NICS response), POS/inventory, and bound books. Those are all (or can all be) separate things. There are some computer programs which can integrate them. Most FFLs still use paper 4473s because they're free. Even if you go digital, they must be printed physically.

You do not "dissolve" FFLs. You just cease operations and "fail to renew" a FFL (and/or SOT). That's when you don't want that FFL to be in the gun business anymore. A FFL may fail to renew their SOT and remain in the gun business. Prior to that occurring, the FFL must dispose of any post-86 dealer sample MGs registered to it. This must occur before the SOT lapses. Any other Title II firearms may be retained by the FFL.

The business holds the FFL. That business may be a LLC. Before dissolving a LLC, the assets have to be disposed of. In the case of firearms, this requires a transfer. So if you want the business (LLC) to give up its FFL/SOT status, but keep the guns, then the LLC must continue to exist. It may continue to own all the guns (except post-86 MGs, as noted above). The LLC cannot conduct firearms business without having a FFL (same as anyone else). Owning/using the guns is fine (same as anyone else).

If your business is a sole proprietorship (not a LLC) and you cease operations and terminate your FFL, then you personally own all the inventory (just as you did while you were in business). This is the only way to end up owning pre-86 dealer samples personally without a transfer.

There cannot be a transfer of a pre-86 dealer sample to anyone except a current FFL/SOT (or LE). You personally cannot be a current FFL/SOT unless you are a sole proprietor with the FFL/SOT in your name.

Thank you KitBuilder, that clears a lot of half offered info out there.  I understand now.  
Basically post 86 samples still have to be transferred out,  cant be carried over when SOT laps or isnt renewed.