I will try to keep the story brief. Just want to make sure I am not overthinking things.

Last week
Dad on phone: Hey I am working out of state. I work here 9 months out of the year. I want to order an AR lower receiver and my wife is going to come down and pick it up and bring it to me the next time she comes out here to visit.
Store: I am sorry, you can't do that. You should get an ID in the state you are living in and have it shipped to an FFL out there. Or I can hold it for you until you get back in town from work. Besides, if you send it here I can only transfer it to the person who is the actual buyer (the person who ordered it.)
Dad oh phone: I don't want to do that. Why can't my son just come and pick it up? We have the same name, so if I order it, it would have his name on the order.
Store: Sorry, sir, we can't do that.

This week
Son #1 on phone: Hey, I'm going to buy my dad a lower and give it to him as a gift. Can you order it for me?
Store: Your dad called and asked about it last week and we told him he couldn't order something and have someone else pick it up.
Son #1 on phone: Yeah but I am going to pay for it and put it in my name. Why can't I do that? (getting tense)
Store: Knowing what I know and having talked to your dad the other day...hang on a second I have another call...I will be right back with you.
Son #1 on phone: hangs up

Son #2 on phone: Hey, my brother wants to buy my dad a lower for his birthday, and y'all told him he can't do that. I don't understand why.
Store: Well, you dad called and said he wanted to buy the lower himself and send his wife to pick it up and bring it to him in another state where he is working. We told him we could not do that. Today your brother called and wants to give him a lower as a gift. We feel like this is a straw purchase.
Son #2 on phone: It's not a straw purchase (yelling now)
Store: Does your dad reside in the state he is working?
Son #2 on phone: No, he lives here, he just works out of town 9 months out of the year.
Store: Sorry man, but your dad wanted to buy the lower and send someone else to get it, now the story has changed to it is a birthday gift.
Son #2 on phone: Man you know me, I have spent a lot of money down there.
Store: Yeah, but I am not going to break the law, sorry, I just can't do it.
Son #2 on phone: hangs up

I am sure the guy is mad, based on the yelling and hanging up on me. I want to make sure I am in 100% compliance with the law. I felt like it was a straw purchase. If you were in my situation would you have felt like it was a straw purchase?

You have a right and are legally required to refuse a transfer if you suspect a straw purchase taking place.

Don't sweat, it may be your first but certainly won't be your last.

Don't blame you!!

Yep


BATFE is an asinine agency that is hyper-vigilant on enforcement of its (unconstitutional) laws.  

Nevertheless as a FFL holder, you have to play their game, and they are quite clear as to the rules for straw purchases (basically any time a firearm is purchased for one who cannot legally buy it).   I have also had representatives of the agency inform me that they actively sting dealers in a manner such as you describe....   Of course, both sons, mother and father could also all be clueless, but it sure sounds like a setup to me.....     I think you dun good.

Better safe than sorry in your FFL role. Knowing what you know, you're doing the right thing.

You did the right thing.

I'm not entirely sure that meets the spirit of a straw purchase.   But my opinions often are contrary to the ATF.   You are a dealer?   Consult your local ATF office for guidance on this one, not arfcom.

I was under the impression that immediate family does not fall under the straw purchase part unless the other family member is a felon.  

I have been wrong before.

OP, you are acting correctly.

Sorry to hear that your customers don't get the regulatory requirements with which you must comply.

Oh, how wrong you are.  Eligibility has NO BEARING on whether a purchase is straw.  The only thing that matters:  is the person the actual purchaser?

You can be perfectly legit, not prohibited, born of the Virgin Mary, but if you';re not the actual purchaser it's straw.

OP is doing his job as required under the law.

+1

This. I would not transfer given the same information.

you did your job by the book

I said the wrong thing once, just like OP posted.
I was building an AR for a friend, to give as a gift for work he had done for me.
Both of us, perfectly eligible to own firearms.

In casual conversation, I told the shop owner "I was buying it for a friend."
I knew at that moment he had issue with what I said.

I explained I was the buyer, and builder of the lower, and it was a gift.
After clearing this up, he sold it to me.

If he hadn't, I knew my error, and would not have been pissed.

For the purposes of buying a firearm, "Dad" is a resident of the state where he is currently living. It matters not one bit where he owns property, votes or pays taxes.
He doesn't need ID from that state, but can use his current valid photo ID and provide supplemental government issued documentation showing his current residence address in that state.
See  ATF Ruling 2010-6 State of Residence

 
Definitely a straw purchase. Neither Son#1 or Son#2 is the actual buyer/transferee.

While legitimate gifts are legal......this obviously isn't a gift and compounded by the fact that the sons intend to "gift" the firearm to a resident of another state. (and that's another violation of Federal law)

You misunderstand what a "straw purchase" actually is...........it's ANYTIME you acquire a firearm from a licensed dealer on behalf of another person. It matters not one bit whether the other person is prohibited.




Yeah, sure.

Not only does it meet the spirit, it damn near is a textbook example of an attempted straw purchase.

And you are wrong again.
There are no exemptions or exceptions to Federal firearms law for family members......never has been.

A straw purchase occurs when a person acquires a firearm from a licensed dealer on behalf of a the actual buyer. The actual buyer does not have to be a felon.

The crime is falsely signing the Form 4473 (where you certify that you are the actual buyer).

You did the right thing Jon.

This one is easy, Dad is the actual buyer, wife, sons were straw purchasers, based on info provided. They would by lying on Q11.a if they said they were actual buyer.

You are absolutely correct. They are telling you exactly how they want to break the law and expecting you to be OK with it. I'm surprised after a couple phone calls they didn't just try and find another FFL?

Better take a look at the back of the new 4473s. It covers this pretty clearly.

I think in your case you were actually giving a bona fide gift. It sounds like he did a good job and you wanted to give him a gift. It does not sound like he said, "Hey, I will paint your basement if you buy me a lower."

Excellent advice.  A gift is not a gift if it is in exchange for something.  If you are compensated, with money or services, for the gift, then it isn't a gift.  Of course, you can also build an AR for yourself, and then give it away for free or sell it if you later decide that you no longer want it.  It's all about your initial intent.

It sure looks that way, but I could see it either way.  Plenty of people would buy a stripped lower and gift it to a family member or friend if asked.   They would be the actual purchaser, and it would be a gift.  Now it's dangerously close to buying for someone as a straw purchase and I can't blame them for refusing it.  It all comes down to intent and who's really paying for it in the background.

Correct.
He did some patio work for me, that I couldn't have done myself, out of kindness of being my friend.
Wasn't paid in any way, other than smoked meat and beer, which others enjoyed, who did nothing at all, other than watch him and I sweat.

Do you have an FFL? Cause you will not have it long if you make it a habit of selling to son#1/#2 or even wife under these circumstances. As DogtownTom wrote, this is "damn near a textbook example of an attempted straw purchase."

Yeah, I thought that was exactly what a straw purchase was/is.

I don't have one, but I worked for one for 10 years.  I wouldn't make the sale either w/ what they were doing.    I was mostly commenting on the gift part.   It COULD be legit, but too much fukery there to deal w/ the consequences.

Darn, I wasted a perfectly good opportunity to pull some General Discussion shenanigans and say something about "your Mom's basement."

The intent is very important when it comes to firearms law.

Has it been done before under the same circumstances with no ill effects? Absolutely.  

Is it legal to the letter of the law? Nope.  

Even if I felt like bending the rules one time for good customers I knew... they blew it by calling multiple times acting like dicks.  


You did the right thing OP.  

Would not lose any sleep over it.

Once the yelling started I would have told him since they don't get it, that I'll relay their information to the local field office and let them explain a straw purchase to each of them.  Then hang up and go back to watching Gunsmoke.

Is it ever legal to knowingly purchase a gun with the intent to give it as a gift?  Buying the wife a purse gun, son his first deer rifle, etc.

Customers are so stupid sometimes. If the son has the same name as the father they could have just sent the son in for the transfer. Nobody would be the wiser. For that matter, any one of the kids could have ordered the damn receiver.

I'm not suggesting that people should deceive their friendly, neighborhood FFL but, really folks, most FFLs just want the form filled out correctly, the ID to match the form (or alternative documentation provided) and no questions or red flags raised. Don't give the FFL a reason to balk and he'll be happy to provide his service and/or sell a gun.

If you want to break the law, that's your business. Don't expect to make the FFL a willing co-conspirator.

Yes, that's always legal so long as the person you're gifting it to isn't prohibited or across state lines.

Where I used to live there was an old guy long time FFL.  

Guy comes in buys gun fails Nics or admitted felon status.  Sale stopped.  A few days later he comes back and points out gun on rack.  Girlfriend buys gun either that day or another.   Dealer was extremely stupid and during 4473 the girl questioned the actual buyer question.   Hint alarm bells should have been ringing off the wall.  Dealer literally says to the chick "I don't give a shit what you do once you walk out the door".    She was an agent of BATFE of course.  

Dealer there was excessively stupid.  Not only sunk by his actions but also his verbalized indifference.  He's obviously no longer a dealer.

My point is they do these checks on dealers.  I would be diligent in adhering to the rule book to stay in business.  The OP's scenario isn't as obvious but the results would or could turn out the same.  

If I was buying my brother or child a gift I would simply check off the box that I am the actual purchaser and not cloud the FFL with the details.  I know I can gift a firearm to a non prohibited person.   No discussion about that.  FFL isn't put on the spot playing mind reader.

You've read the instructions, right? I know you've read the instructions because when you sign the 4473 you attest to the fact that you've read the instructions. Just a reminder . . .

OP did good but this just highlights how stupid our laws are. We really need to get them changed.

In my mind anyone in the family should be able to come pick it up. A straw purchase should only exist for prohibited persons trying to circumvent the law. If I have a friend that lives in the middle of nowhere it's silly I can't pick a gun up for him.

But then again almost all of our gun laws don't make sense.

FYI, here's a discussion on the latest Supreme Court ruling

Straw purchase...you did the correct thing(by law)...

Amazing how people make things up, even when the information is right there in front of them.

Is this where it's legit to say "GD gonna GD"?

What a load of bullshit.

+1

I'm trying to imagine my local ATF guy wasting time with a sting operation like that. I'm sure it's possible but doesn't seem likely. The inspectors are not cops so it wouldn't be them doing something like that even if they had time. THey barely get around to do inspections, though. The ATF cop has bigger fish to fry. He came in a few months to ask about an unsuccessful straw purchase attempt and I expressed surprise that he was doing that. His explanation was that he and the local cops were trying to clamp down on a rash of shootings in the hood and that looking at the straw buyers was a way to work leads. He was definitely not investigating the FFLs in town. He wanted the gang bangers.

Sounds like you need a few more "Don't lie for the other guy" posters and pens.

The ATF would set up the sting operation if the shop happened to supply a high percentage of the guns that were being recovered.

And it would be a two year long investigation in which they'd have several charges not just one straw purchase.

"You guys are unstable as far as I can tell.  The $20 transfer is not worth the phone calls and harassment.  Find another dealer" click.  

Fire them as customers.  

Even if it was legal (and it's not) it's not worth the hassle.

I would have refused the sale as would any legitimate dealer, no matter the conversation, if you get any hint of something, you are suppose to refuse the sale, if a person just makes you feel wrong you can refuse the sale.

I would rather loose a customer than loose my license.

The ATF did just that to a shop years ago over near the Atlanta airport. They were providing a lot of crime guns . I witnessed a first hand 12 gun straw purchase in person. I said something to the clerk and he said if he did not sell the guns another dealer would.  The woman bought 12 Jennings in 1 sitting .