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Posted: 5/2/2017 7:31:33 PM EDT
Is it standard practice to save the fax or email confirmation after receiving it from the ATF of CLEO? I just had an inspection and the IOI stated I should save the confirmations and staple them with the 4473 and the MDF.
Link Posted: 5/2/2017 7:39:08 PM EDT
[#1]
IOI is being pedantic - but it is your only proof you complied with the regulations.

Kind of like keeping NFA stamp copies with your NFA firearms - not required, but a pretty good idea.
Link Posted: 5/2/2017 7:53:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Never had a CLEO confirm a single submission of anything, ever.
Link Posted: 5/2/2017 8:34:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Never heard of a CLEO confirmation either. However, it is a good idea to print the ATF confirmation - just don't keep it with the 4473. It is not a required record - therefore it's none of the ATF's business unless you need to prove that you sent a particular form that they say they never received. Then, you can go see if you have the confirmation. By keeping the records separate, and therefore off limits to the ATF, it doesn't look like you failed to send one in if you forgot to print the confirmation for one form.
Link Posted: 5/4/2017 8:57:15 AM EDT
[#4]
I just keep the sent emails and the confirmations in a separate folder, I don't print them out.
Link Posted: 5/4/2017 12:23:02 PM EDT
[#5]
I've never received a confirmation from anyone.
Link Posted: 5/4/2017 5:34:17 PM EDT
[#6]
We get email confirmations from the ATF & save in Outlook PST file but never get anything from the CLEO.
Link Posted: 5/4/2017 8:14:25 PM EDT
[#7]
In nearly nine years of being an FFL, at least five multiple sale forms every week, NEVER have I received a confirmation back from ATF.

And I doubt any of you have either. What you got was a confirmation from your fax machine that the transmission went through....it's a setting on your fax machine.
Link Posted: 5/4/2017 9:13:10 PM EDT
[#8]
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In nearly nine years of being an FFL, at least five multiple sale forms every week, NEVER have I received a confirmation back from ATF.
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Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
Link Posted: 5/4/2017 9:53:44 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
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Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 10:36:05 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:

Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
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You're right.  However, it's a CYA.  During an inspection, the ATF sometimes claims that a multiple sales form was never sent in.  It's your word against theirs unless you have some proof.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 11:16:26 AM EDT
[#11]
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Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
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In nearly nine years of being an FFL, at least five multiple sale forms every week, NEVER have I received a confirmation back from ATF.
Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
^This...we email to both the ATF and CLEO in our area.  CLEO could give a shit less.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 11:17:34 AM EDT
[#12]
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Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
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Quoted:

Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
[email protected]
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 12:46:20 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
You're right.  However, it's a CYA.  During an inspection, the ATF sometimes claims that a multiple sales form was never sent in.  It's your word against theirs unless you have some proof.
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Quoted:

Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
You're right.  However, it's a CYA.  During an inspection, the ATF sometimes claims that a multiple sales form was never sent in.  It's your word against theirs unless you have some proof.
CYA?

At each of my compliance inspections the IOI's had a printout of my multiple sale forms and matched them with the appropriate 4473. When they found a 4473 and its multiple sale report that was not on the printout guess what happened?.........NOT A DAMN THING. They just asked if I could make another copy for them to take with them. Big deal.

It's not even a requirement to fax or email the report. Snail mail is perfectly acceptable......and they don't mail back a confirmation for that either.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 12:48:40 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
[email protected]
Which doesn't address the fact that a confirmation is not required, not needed or in any way "helpful" to the licensees recordkeeping requirements.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 1:04:14 PM EDT
[#15]
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Which doesn't address the fact that a confirmation is not required, not needed or in any way "helpful" to the licensees recordkeeping requirements.
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Pretty sure confirmation back is NOT required.  It's just something they (ATF) do I guess.  

If the ATF ever questioned whether a report was sent I have the ability to search when it was sent and the receipt back.  Do whatever works for you.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 4:23:50 PM EDT
[#16]
What confirmation from what CLEO?
My boss shreds 'em when someone brings us one, same as multiple gun sales and FFL and C&R license applications and renewals.   If we have the record here, it becomes an "open record".   The boss shreds em as soon as he sees em.  We can't provide records we don't have
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 4:59:36 PM EDT
[#17]
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What confirmation from what CLEO?
My boss shreds 'em when someone brings us one, same as multiple gun sales and FFL and C&R license applications and renewals.   If we have the record here, it becomes an "open record".   The boss shreds em as soon as he sees em.  We can't provide records we don't have
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I've heard through the grapevine that my CLEO also round files them.  I still send them over though.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 7:11:40 PM EDT
[#18]
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CYA?

At each of my compliance inspections the IOI's had a printout of my multiple sale forms and matched them with the appropriate 4473. When they found a 4473 and its multiple sale report that was not on the printout guess what happened?.........NOT A DAMN THING. They just asked if I could make another copy for them to take with them. Big deal.

It's not even a requirement to fax or email the report. Snail mail is perfectly acceptable......and they don't mail back a confirmation for that either.
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I'm glad to hear that you've had such good inspections. However, as you've shared, the ATF's report is not always accurate.  I have seen a few instances were this caused a problem for other FFLs.  The CYA is a recommendation - clearly it's not a requirement.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 7:14:44 PM EDT
[#19]
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Which doesn't address the fact that a confirmation is not required, not needed or in any way "helpful" to the licensees recordkeeping requirements.
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Try emailing it sometime.  You get a confirmation back from a real person.
Why do I want or need a confirmation?

No regulation requires one.
[email protected]
Which doesn't address the fact that a confirmation is not required, not needed or in any way "helpful" to the licensees recordkeeping requirements.
Correct - not required.

However, I have personally seen saved confirmations be helpful to avoid violations in inspections.
Link Posted: 5/6/2017 12:21:16 AM EDT
[#20]
I did a couple multiple sale forms last month. The only reply I got back (I sent it by email) was a happy cheery reply back from some girl saying "thank you"

That's it.

That being said that was the copy sent to the Atf. The Cleo I haven't received back jack ever. From FFL licensing, change of address, or multiple sale form.

Nothing
Link Posted: 5/6/2017 9:17:08 PM EDT
[#21]
The only reason I asked was that they were missing two multiple disposition forms when the IOI conducted my compliance inspection. I had the copies attached to the 4473s, but the IOI didn't see them on her report. IOI asked me to fax them to the ATF tracing center again and print out a copy of the fax confirmation. Turns out that was a violation even though I had a copy of the 4473, but I had no proof of sending it in.

Turns out this was an inspection from hell. She checked out my 4473's for the past year which came out about 150 and she stayed at my house for two complete 8 hr days.
Link Posted: 5/7/2017 11:03:48 AM EDT
[#22]
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The only reason I asked was that they were missing two multiple disposition forms when the IOI conducted my compliance inspection. I had the copies attached to the 4473s, but the IOI didn't see them on her report. IOI asked me to fax them to the ATF tracing center again and print out a copy of the fax confirmation. Turns out that was a violation even though I had a copy of the 4473, but I had no proof of sending it in.

Turns out this was an inspection from hell. She checked out my 4473's for the past year which came out about 150 and she stayed at my house for two complete 8 hr days.
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That sucks.  Sorry that happened.

Glad you shared though so that others see how important of a CYA this can be.
Link Posted: 5/7/2017 8:19:00 PM EDT
[#23]
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The only reason I asked was that they were missing two multiple disposition forms when the IOI conducted my compliance inspection. I had the copies attached to the 4473s, but the IOI didn't see them on her report. IOI asked me to fax them to the ATF tracing center again and print out a copy of the fax confirmation. Turns out that was a violation even though I had a copy of the 4473, but I had no proof of sending it in.

Turns out this was an inspection from hell. She checked out my 4473's for the past year which came out about 150 and she stayed at my house for two complete 8 hr days.
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No ATF regulation requires a licensee to have "confirmation" that you faxed, emailed or snail mailed the multiple sale form. Any IOI that says this is bullshitting you.
Link Posted: 5/7/2017 8:19:40 PM EDT
[#24]
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That sucks.  Sorry that happened.

Glad you shared though so that others see how important of a CYA this can be.
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It's not "CYA"......it's paranoia.
Link Posted: 5/7/2017 10:47:18 PM EDT
[#25]
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No ATF regulation requires a licensee to have "confirmation" that you faxed, emailed or snail mailed the multiple sale form. Any IOI that says this is bullshitting you.
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Bullshitting me or not, I still got the violation. They had no record of the forms I sent in and I couldn't prove that I sent it to them beyond the dated copies I had stapled to my 4473. I'm not telling people they need to start saving this stuff, only reporting my experience with one IOI. 
Link Posted: 5/8/2017 4:38:28 AM EDT
[#26]
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No ATF regulation requires a licensee to have "confirmation" that you faxed, emailed or snail mailed the multiple sale form. Any IOI that says this is bullshitting you.
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The only reason I asked was that they were missing two multiple disposition forms when the IOI conducted my compliance inspection. I had the copies attached to the 4473s, but the IOI didn't see them on her report. IOI asked me to fax them to the ATF tracing center again and print out a copy of the fax confirmation. Turns out that was a violation even though I had a copy of the 4473, but I had no proof of sending it in.

Turns out this was an inspection from hell. She checked out my 4473's for the past year which came out about 150 and she stayed at my house for two complete 8 hr days.
No ATF regulation requires a licensee to have "confirmation" that you faxed, emailed or snail mailed the multiple sale form. Any IOI that says this is bullshitting you.
Again, you're right.  I don't see anybody disagreeing with you that you can snail mail it in and that confirmation is not required.

However, if the ATF says that you failed to send it in (which is a regulation), then having proof that you sent it in would be nice to have. As I mentioned, I've seen multiple citations for "failure to send a form in" (just like what happened above). Every IOI is not as easy going as yours. Clearly this is an issue for some FFLs.

Not sure why you're so against some folks keeping confirmation of something when it has repeatedly helped some of those that do it and has hurt some of those that don't.  

Your experience has been different - we get it. It isn't required - we get it. The fact remains, if the OP had confirmations, he wouldn't have received violations because he could prove he sent it in.

Because this situation is similar to many others I've seen, I'm going to recommend that FFLs get confirmations because I'm looking out for their best interests and I want to keep them out of trouble. Not sure what your motivation is trying to fight that.
Link Posted: 5/8/2017 4:41:17 AM EDT
[#27]
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It's not "CYA"......it's paranoia.
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That sucks.  Sorry that happened.

Glad you shared though so that others see how important of a CYA this can be.
It's not "CYA"......it's paranoia.
Ok.

I've officially spent too much time arguing about my free advice to help FFLs.  I've stated what has helped other FFLs and the failure of which has hurt some FFLs (including the OP) - time to move along.
Link Posted: 5/8/2017 6:16:17 PM EDT
[#28]
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Again, you're right.  I don't see anybody disagreeing with you that you can snail mail it in and that confirmation is not required.

However, if the ATF says that you failed to send it in (which is a regulation), then having proof that you sent it in would be nice to have. As I mentioned, I've seen multiple citations for "failure to send a form in" (just like what happened above). Every IOI is not as easy going as yours. Clearly this is an issue for some FFLs.

Not sure why you're so against some folks keeping confirmation of something when it has repeatedly helped some of those that do it and has hurt some of those that don't.  

Your experience has been different - we get it. It isn't required - we get it. The fact remains, if the OP had confirmations, he wouldn't have received violations because he could prove he sent it in.

Because this situation is similar to many others I've seen, I'm going to recommend that FFLs get confirmations because I'm looking out for their best interests and I want to keep them out of trouble. Not sure what your motivation is trying to fight that.
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The only reason I asked was that they were missing two multiple disposition forms when the IOI conducted my compliance inspection. I had the copies attached to the 4473s, but the IOI didn't see them on her report. IOI asked me to fax them to the ATF tracing center again and print out a copy of the fax confirmation. Turns out that was a violation even though I had a copy of the 4473, but I had no proof of sending it in.

Turns out this was an inspection from hell. She checked out my 4473's for the past year which came out about 150 and she stayed at my house for two complete 8 hr days.
No ATF regulation requires a licensee to have "confirmation" that you faxed, emailed or snail mailed the multiple sale form. Any IOI that says this is bullshitting you.
Again, you're right.  I don't see anybody disagreeing with you that you can snail mail it in and that confirmation is not required.

However, if the ATF says that you failed to send it in (which is a regulation), then having proof that you sent it in would be nice to have. As I mentioned, I've seen multiple citations for "failure to send a form in" (just like what happened above). Every IOI is not as easy going as yours. Clearly this is an issue for some FFLs.

Not sure why you're so against some folks keeping confirmation of something when it has repeatedly helped some of those that do it and has hurt some of those that don't.  

Your experience has been different - we get it. It isn't required - we get it. The fact remains, if the OP had confirmations, he wouldn't have received violations because he could prove he sent it in.

Because this situation is similar to many others I've seen, I'm going to recommend that FFLs get confirmations because I'm looking out for their best interests and I want to keep them out of trouble. Not sure what your motivation is trying to fight that.
It's the same paranoid bullshit when some dealers will make a copy of the buyers drivers license.......you know, to PROVE that the information is correct.

If your IOI threatens you with failing to comply.....why not yank out a copy of your phone bill. Mine shows every fax call to ATF and I can pull the same call history from my fax machine.

I'm not fighting anything other than paranoia.
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