Do 07 FFL's need to pay the ITAR fees? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do 07 FFL's need to pay the ITAR fees? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 1/29/2012 6:03:08 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Do you happen to know what draws the line with post-samples? Is it all up to interpretation and how hard the ATF wants to make your life, or is there some cut and dry answers? Regs state the above, but that doesn't necessarily always mean the end-all be-all according to the ATF lol.

No, but there are a lot of folks who started out as small shops and are successful name brands now. So there is nothing wrong with trying. I think the biggest thing is documented effort. Make a 5 MGs, try to sell them, can't - no problem. Make 25 with no effort to sell and open up a range renting them to public - big problem.

Posted: 1/29/2012 6:19:42 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do you happen to know what draws the line with post-samples? Is it all up to interpretation and how hard the ATF wants to make your life, or is there some cut and dry answers? Regs state the above, but that doesn't necessarily always mean the end-all be-all according to the ATF lol.

No, but there are a lot of folks who started out as small shops and are successful name brands now. So there is nothing wrong with trying. I think the biggest thing is documented effort. Make a 5 MGs, try to sell them, can't - no problem. Make 25 with no effort to sell and open up a range renting them to public - big problem.

That's certainly the plan, make some stuff and try to sell what you can... As you said I'd only make a few and then try to sell them, not try to . I'd send letters to the local police asking if they would like a demo, and see how it goes. I'd certainly put forward the effort to stay in compliance with the ATF. I guess if you did sell a MG to a local police dept, that would be a good time to register for ITAR lol.

Regarding the rental of post samples, I believe many people do do that. I don't have a range, so it doesn't interest me in any way, but I'd imagine you could make some decent money. Not sure how a manufacturer could quantify making post sample WWII era MG's for 'sales samples' that would be antiquated by todays standards lol.

What are the rules regarding testing and transportation of the post sample? Does everything have to be for an 'official' purpose, or is it 'OK' to shoot the post sample MG leisurely as well? I don't believe it's spelled out anywhere, so I figured I'd ask to see if anyone knew of a best practice.

Posted: 1/29/2012 7:42:09 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

For example, I'll list two things that apply to my business.

1. I'd like to make post sample full auto AR-15 style machine guns to test various upper receivers and weapons systems. I would then sell the uppers (which are not firearms, and so long as I'm not manufacturing the compents which are on the USML, then ITAR is not there). This would be 'R&D' work, however I want to make sure I am exempt from ITAR. DoS still says I must pay. I need proof otherwise.

The only lawful purpose to make a machine gun is for sale to LE/MIL or export. Making it to test uppers is not legal.

From the Instructions on the Form 2:

2. Machineguns a. 18 U.S.C. § 922(o) provides that machineguns may be made only for government use or export.

An 07/sot can make a full auto weapon for R&D and keep it in his inventory.

I can make 500 of them and leave them in the vault with no orders pending.

To say I cannot make one for any other reason is not accurate.

Machine guns can only be sold to law enforcement & Military but they can be made as demo weapons for 01/sot's too.

Posted: 1/29/2012 7:44:04 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In speaking to other SOT 02's the consensus was that you could make as many post-sample MG's as you felt like, and the ATF wouldn't bat an eye. Is that incorrect?

Theoretically yes, but if you made 10,000 and had zero sales I think someone at BATFE would bat an eye.

What you cannot do is "make post sample full auto AR-15 style machine guns to test various upper receivers and weapons systems". The purpose of making them must be for sale to LE/MIL or export. You cannot make them to test other parts that will not be sold with the firearm.

This is incorrect, you can only make them to sell to LEO & Military but there are legal uses an 07 can do with them once they are made.

As stated an 07 can rent them to his customers as long as he avoids an illegal transfer.

Do you know how many 07/sot's there are in LA building guns to be used in the movies?

Yes I make full auto guns to sell to law enforcement but what I can do with them after they are made is a lot more than you think can be done.

Posted: 1/29/2012 7:46:40 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In speaking to other SOT 02's the consensus was that you could make as many post-sample MG's as you felt like, and the ATF wouldn't bat an eye. Is that incorrect?

Theoretically yes, but if you made 10,000 and had zero sales I think someone at BATFE would bat an eye.

What you cannot do is "make post sample full auto AR-15 style machine guns to test various upper receivers and weapons systems". The purpose of making them must be for sale to LE/MIL or export. You cannot make them to test other parts that will not be sold with the firearm.

If you made 10,000 full auto AR 15's and had no sales exactly what can the ATF do about it?

I know a shop that got stuck with over 750 weapons which they thought were going to be sold, no buyer and they still have them.

So where is the statute that limits the number of full auto weapons you can make?

Posted: 1/29/2012 7:51:16 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do you happen to know what draws the line with post-samples? Is it all up to interpretation and how hard the ATF wants to make your life, or is there some cut and dry answers? Regs state the above, but that doesn't necessarily always mean the end-all be-all according to the ATF lol.

No, but there are a lot of folks who started out as small shops and are successful name brands now. So there is nothing wrong with trying. I think the biggest thing is documented effort. Make a 5 MGs, try to sell them, can't - no problem. Make 25 with no effort to sell and open up a range renting them to public - big problem.

Wow, where do you get this stuff?

I have a letter on the way soon documenting I can rent some of my full auto inventory out to the general public with guidelines on making sure we do not inadvertently do an illegal transfer.

We have to make sure that one of our employees is close enough and line of sight so that an illegal transfer does not take place.

There are a lot of 07/sot's who rent machine guns under these rules.

I also supply NFA weapons to prop houses in LA who rent/supply them to movie productions with an armorer present.

Posted: 1/29/2012 7:57:01 PM EDT

[#7]

This one one might make RenegadeX implode LOL

We have three 07 FFL's with SOT's

I also have an 01 FFL I keep

2 of the 07's are in the company name, one here in Pa and one in Kansas at our other location.

One of the 07's I have is in my name solely

I could build a select fire Glock 17, suppress it, pop in a 33 rd mag and carry it concealed on my person under my Pa CCW.

It would be legal.

I would never do that because if I ever had to use it , we might be set back in our gun rights battle.

Posted: 1/30/2012 6:18:18 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Wow, where do you get this stuff?

Everything I have written is supported by the law.
The fact some folks are bending or violating the law but have not been called on it does not change that.
It is not legal to make post-sample for R&D or rental purposes, post-samples can only be made to sell to LE/Mil or export. This is indisputable ( unless you have variance). Even the NFA Handbook acknowledges that.

"7.6.2 Manufacture of machineguns solely for purposes of testing. The manufacture of machineguns

solely for testing or research purposes is not recognized as a legitimate exception to the ban on

possession or transfer of firearms under 18 U.S.C. 922(o). As previously stated, manufacturers may

only manufacture machineguns on or after May 19, 1986 and stockpile the same if they are

manufactured and held for sale to Federal or State agencies, for distribution as "sales samples,” or for

exportation."

Posted: 1/30/2012 6:21:37 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

This one one might make RenegadeX implode LOL

We have three 07 FFL's with SOT's

I also have an 01 FFL I keep

2 of the 07's are in the company name, one here in Pa and one in Kansas at our other location.

One of the 07's I have is in my name solely

I could build a select fire Glock 17, suppress it, pop in a 33 rd mag and carry it concealed on my person under my Pa CCW.

It would be legal.

I would never do that because if I ever had to use it , we might be set back in our gun rights battle.

So what? I have a real Glock 18C and I can do that (and have done it) in Texas.

Posted: 1/30/2012 6:26:58 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

An 07/sot can make a full auto weapon for R&D

One more time since you missed it the last few times it was posted. From NFA Handbook:

"7.6.2 Manufacture of machineguns solely for purposes of testing. The manufacture of machineguns

solely for testing or research purposes is not recognized as a legitimate exception to the ban on

possession or transfer of firearms under 18 U.S.C. 922(o). As previously stated, manufacturers may

only manufacture machineguns on or after May 19, 1986 and stockpile the same if they are

manufactured and held for sale to Federal or State agencies, for distribution as "sales samples,” or for

exportation."

Posted: 1/30/2012 6:29:03 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In speaking to other SOT 02's the consensus was that you could make as many post-sample MG's as you felt like, and the ATF wouldn't bat an eye. Is that incorrect?

Theoretically yes, but if you made 10,000 and had zero sales I think someone at BATFE would bat an eye.

What you cannot do is "make post sample full auto AR-15 style machine guns to test various upper receivers and weapons systems". The purpose of making them must be for sale to LE/MIL or export. You cannot make them to test other parts that will not be sold with the firearm.

This is incorrect, you can only make them to sell to LEO & Military but there are legal uses an 07 can do with them once they are made.

No it is correct, you are just having a reading comprehension issue as you seem to not understand what "to" means.

I never said or addressed legal uses AFTER the gun was made FOR sale to LE/MIL or export.

Posted: 1/30/2012 6:40:21 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
What are the rules regarding testing and transportation of the post sample? Does everything have to be for an 'official' purpose, or is it 'OK' to shoot the post sample MG leisurely as well? I don't believe it's spelled out anywhere, so I figured I'd ask to see if anyone knew of a best practice.

Only why it is to be made/xferred is spelled out, after it is made and sitting in inventory awaiting to be sold is not really addressed. If you follow cases though you will see BATFE is going after FFLS who are using these guns for non SALES reasons. The Blackwater case is a good example. If they do not like how guns are being stored or used, they will back track to see how they were made or bought, and make a case for illegal xfer like they did to BW.

Posted: 1/30/2012 8:29:14 AM EDT

[#13]

RenegadeX, are you claiming once a full AR is made for sale to law enforcement it cannot be used as a rental in our range?

You seem to imply we would be breaking the law ?

We haven't built the range yet but we did cover our bases and have a letter with this exact question put to legal & Tech at the NFA/ATF

We were told in writing it is legal for us to rent these as long as a transfer does not take place.

You also seen to contradict your self in saying you have a glock18 and have carried it.

And no I am not posting our tech branch letters, doing so already caused me some aggravation on two occasions.

I'd like to see a real Glock 18 because as far as I knew Glock won't sell them to anyone.

But maybe your special

Posted: 1/30/2012 8:30:27 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What are the rules regarding testing and transportation of the post sample? Does everything have to be for an 'official' purpose, or is it 'OK' to shoot the post sample MG leisurely as well? I don't believe it's spelled out anywhere, so I figured I'd ask to see if anyone knew of a best practice.

Only why it is to be made/xferred is spelled out, after it is made and sitting in inventory awaiting to be sold is not really addressed. If you follow cases though you will see BATFE is going after FFLS who are using these guns for non SALES reasons. The Blackwater case is a good example. If they do not like how guns are being stored or used, they will back track to see how they were made or bought, and make a case for illegal xfer like they did to BW.

Blackwater aside you said "cases"

Can you show us any other cases where an 07 was charged or his lic taken ?

Posted: 1/30/2012 8:36:33 AM EDT

[#15]

Am I going nuts are you directly contradicting what you claim in this other thread where you said.

"1) Nowhere in the law does it mention anything about the purpose of MFGing a MG."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_50/346765_Machine_Gun_manufacture_without_a_letter.html

Quoted:

Quoted:

No demo letter needed to MFG for 07/02.
That passage, while correct in spirit, has no legal meaning since it is not the law or cfr.

Errr...how so? I mean, plain text reading of 922(o) [below] would seem to indicate that it's a correct interpretation:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.

(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to—

(A) a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was
lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.
I'm definitely no expert on this, but unless there is another law superceeding this, I can't see much wiggle room.

RenegadeX:

1) Nowhere in the law does it mention anything about the purpose of MFGing a MG.
2) What is in BLUE, is what allows BATFE to make the rules as they wish. That is enough wiggle room to do anything they want.

Posted: 1/30/2012 9:59:53 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

RenegadeX, are you claiming once a full AR is made for sale to law enforcement it cannot be used as a rental in our range?

No, I never claimed that.

Quoted:

I'd like to see a real Glock 18 because as far as I knew Glock won't sell them to anyone.

No problem. Here is mine:

Here it is in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jrzM2ezZ9U&list=UUPjf3h5pSq1wUcVPB0Ql4Fw&feature=player_detailpage

Posted: 1/30/2012 10:35:06 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

RenegadeX, are you claiming once a full AR is made for sale to law enforcement it cannot be used as a rental in our range?

No, I never claimed that.

Quoted:

I'd like to see a real Glock 18 because as far as I knew Glock won't sell them to anyone.

No problem. Here is mine:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/Guns/Glock-18C.jpg

Here it is in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jrzM2ezZ9U&list=UUPjf3h5pSq1wUcVPB0Ql4Fw&feature=player_detailpage

nice

Posted: 2/1/2012 9:59:53 AM EDT

[#18]

I'm glad we got some more comments here guys!

Still not a clear cut distinction on the legallities of what you can make regarding post-samples, how many, for what purposes, what useage, etc. More info is appreciated!

I know what the handbook says, and the law can easily be looked up. What's the real life examples though?

People make post-sample WWII weapons that would in no way be sold to LEO for modern day usage. They rent them on their range and shoot them with their buddies for fun. That's one example, what gives lol?

Posted: 2/3/2012 12:04:52 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
When we are building something new and not sure if it's ready we take it apart, change things , test fire it , it's not done until we say it is.
The ATF does not make you file a form 2 the second you drill the sear pin hole.,
When you make a weapon and file the form 2 it goes into the reg.

It's not a weapon under the guide lines for a form 2 until you as the MFGer are finished with it and it's ready to sell or otherwise.

I have witnessed first hand directly contrary opinions of ATF Tech Branch, Enforcement, and the US Attorney's office. It took several hundred thousand dollars and 6 months for the charges to be dismissed.

I would kindly recommend you do do the form 2 the same day you drill the sear hole or cut down the barrel or whatever.

Posted: 2/3/2012 12:32:29 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:

When we are building something new and not sure if it's ready we take it apart, change things , test fire it , it's not done until we say it is.

The ATF does not make you file a form 2 the second you drill the sear pin hole.,

When you make a weapon and file the form 2 it goes into the reg.

It's not a weapon under the guide lines for a form 2 until you as the MFGer are finished with it and it's ready to sell or otherwise.

I have witnessed first hand directly contrary opinions of ATF Tech Branch, Enforcement, and the US Attorney's office. It took several hundred thousand dollars and 6 months for the charges to be dismissed.

I would kindly recommend you do do the form 2 the same day you drill the sear hole or cut down the barrel or whatever.

+1

There are several cases on Bardwell's site documenting FFLs (07/02) who were convicted of unlawful possession for not registering incomplete firearms.

Posted: 2/3/2012 12:43:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

When we are building something new and not sure if it's ready we take it apart, change things , test fire it , it's not done until we say it is.

The ATF does not make you file a form 2 the second you drill the sear pin hole.,

When you make a weapon and file the form 2 it goes into the reg.

It's not a weapon under the guide lines for a form 2 until you as the MFGer are finished with it and it's ready to sell or otherwise.

I have witnessed first hand directly contrary opinions of ATF Tech Branch, Enforcement, and the US Attorney's office. It took several hundred thousand dollars and 6 months for the charges to be dismissed.

I would kindly recommend you do do the form 2 the same day you drill the sear hole or cut down the barrel or whatever.

I see your point but we stock 100's of short barrels, why would I do that?

Also you are not supposed to file a form 2 until the weapon is complete.

If they showed up at your shop and you had form 2ed a MG but never assembled it you might get in trouble that way too?

You could always say you disassembled it but why would you need to lie.

I deal with some bigger MFGers and they do not form 2 it until it's fully assembled and tested.

Posted: 2/3/2012 12:43:49 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

When we are building something new and not sure if it's ready we take it apart, change things , test fire it , it's not done until we say it is.

The ATF does not make you file a form 2 the second you drill the sear pin hole.,

When you make a weapon and file the form 2 it goes into the reg.

It's not a weapon under the guide lines for a form 2 until you as the MFGer are finished with it and it's ready to sell or otherwise.

I have witnessed first hand directly contrary opinions of ATF Tech Branch, Enforcement, and the US Attorney's office. It took several hundred thousand dollars and 6 months for the charges to be dismissed.

I would kindly recommend you do do the form 2 the same day you drill the sear hole or cut down the barrel or whatever.

+1

There are several cases on Bardwell's site documenting FFLs (07/02) who were convicted of unlawful possession for not registering incomplete firearms.

link?

Scenarios?

Posted: 2/3/2012 1:18:57 PM EDT

[#23]

I see your point but we stock 100's of short barrels, why would I do that?
Also you are not supposed to file a form 2 until the weapon is complete.
If they showed up at your shop and you had form 2ed a MG but never assembled it you might get in trouble that way too?
You could always say you disassembled it but why would you need to lie.
I deal with some bigger MFGers and they do not form 2 it until it's fully assembled and tested.

If you just have short barrels sitting around that aren't installed on anything, then no you shouldn't need to SBR it. The barrel is the defining feature of an SBR, and a receiver is just a receiver (not a rifle) without a barrel on it. You can always remanufacture your own receivers or rifles into other things by simply logging them out "moved to rifle manufacturing log" "moved to NFA manufacturing log" and recording them in the appropriate sections of your bound book(s). For most manufacturers they should record the receiver when first manufactured as that, then relog when it is later made into whatever its final configuration is; NFA or not you can't have unrecorded receivers lying around that may end up as just receivers, complete rifles, or NFA weapons. Just having short barrels and receivers around shouldn't be constructive intent for a manufacturer. Once the barrel is mounted though you should file the Form 2, even if you haven't test fired it/made it operational.

In the case of machine guns if its at the point it can accept machine gun parts you should form 2 it regardless if completely assembled or not. Doesn't really matter if its reliable or functioning as far as the MFG is concerned, if it fires more than 1 round per trigger pull BATF will see it as a machine gun. If it has MG parts installed they will likely view it as an MG too.

Posted: 2/3/2012 2:24:07 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

I see your point but we stock 100's of short barrels, why would I do that?

Also you are not supposed to file a form 2 until the weapon is complete.

If they showed up at your shop and you had form 2ed a MG but never assembled it you might get in trouble that way too?

You could always say you disassembled it but why would you need to lie.

I deal with some bigger MFGers and they do not form 2 it until it's fully assembled and tested.

If you just have short barrels sitting around that aren't installed on anything, then no you shouldn't need to SBR it. The barrel is the defining feature of an SBR, and a receiver is just a receiver (not a rifle) without a barrel on it. You can always remanufacture your own receivers or rifles into other things by simply logging them out "moved to rifle manufacturing log" "moved to NFA manufacturing log" and recording them in the appropriate sections of your bound book(s). For most manufacturers they should record the receiver when first manufactured as that, then relog when it is later made into whatever its final configuration is; NFA or not you can't have unrecorded receivers lying around that may end up as just receivers, complete rifles, or NFA weapons. Just having short barrels and receivers around shouldn't be constructive intent for a manufacturer. Once the barrel is mounted though you should file the Form 2, even if you haven't test fired it/made it operational.

In the case of machine guns if its at the point it can accept machine gun parts you should form 2 it regardless if completely assembled or not. Doesn't really matter if its reliable or functioning as far as the MFG is concerned, if it fires more than 1 round per trigger pull BATF will see it as a machine gun. If it has MG parts installed they will likely view it as an MG too.

This is not correct as per letters we have on MG's and SBR's

A machine gun receiver can be returned to a semi auto state now.

there is ample letters on this too.

I understand a receiver is a machine gun once it's milled and drilled.

I also understand that is is not a complete weapon needing to be formed 2ed as yet.

It must be form 2ed once it is MFGered

There are conflicting opinions on when it needs to be form 2ed

The differing opinions on when are from FFL/sots.

The NFA has said in writing and on the phone when it's completed.

They can't cite me for violating the time frame on when to file a form 2 when I have their letter stating otherwise.

It's a moot point anyway, if the ATF walked in and you had 5 receivers sitting on a bench waiting for parts kits and the ATF agent said when did you mill & drill those?

"why this morning sir"

J/K

Posted: 2/3/2012 2:26:56 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

I see your point but we stock 100's of short barrels, why would I do that?

Also you are not supposed to file a form 2 until the weapon is complete.

If they showed up at your shop and you had form 2ed a MG but never assembled it you might get in trouble that way too?

You could always say you disassembled it but why would you need to lie.

I deal with some bigger MFGers and they do not form 2 it until it's fully assembled and tested.

If you just have short barrels sitting around that aren't installed on anything, then no you shouldn't need to SBR it. The barrel is the defining feature of an SBR, and a receiver is just a receiver (not a rifle) without a barrel on it. You can always remanufacture your own receivers or rifles into other things by simply logging them out "moved to rifle manufacturing log" "moved to NFA manufacturing log" and recording them in the appropriate sections of your bound book(s). For most manufacturers they should record the receiver when first manufactured as that, then relog when it is later made into whatever its final configuration is; NFA or not you can't have unrecorded receivers lying around that may end up as just receivers, complete rifles, or NFA weapons. Just having short barrels and receivers around shouldn't be constructive intent for a manufacturer. Once the barrel is mounted though you should file the Form 2, even if you haven't test fired it/made it operational.
In the case of machine guns if its at the point it can accept machine gun parts you should form 2 it regardless if completely assembled or not. Doesn't really matter if its reliable or functioning as far as the MFG is concerned, if it fires more than 1 round per trigger pull BATF will see it as a machine gun. If it has MG parts installed they will likely view it as an MG too.

We build AR pistols with some of the same uppers as we use on the SBR's, why would I ever file a form 2 on an SBR until it's complete?

One more point:

If you mill the receiver and punch the SEAR pin hole out but don't punch the hole all the way through it is still semi auto, so no need to file anything yet.

Posted: 2/3/2012 2:57:06 PM EDT

[#26]

This is not correct as per letters we have on MG's and SBR's
A machine gun receiver can be returned to a semi auto state now.
there is ample letters on this too.

I understand a receiver is a machine gun once it's milled and drilled.
I also understand that is is not a complete weapon needing to be formed 2ed as yet.
It must be form 2ed once it is MFGered
There are conflicting opinions on when it needs to be form 2ed
The differing opinions on when are from FFL/sots.

The NFA has said in writing and on the phone when it's completed.

They can't cite me for violating the time frame on when to file a form 2 when I have their letter stating otherwise.

It's a moot point anyway, if the ATF walked in and you had 5 receivers sitting on a bench waiting for parts kits and the ATF agent said when did you mill & drill those?

"why this morning sir"

J/K

Well all I can say is from a regulatory stand point that may be correct, and the fact you have letters is good and means it's good for you (may not be good for someone else).
From a criminal prosecution standpoint, I can tell you that they don't care and you'll spend a lot of time and money trying to prove them wrong, and registering too soon is safer from a criminal standpoint than registering too late.

Posted: 2/16/2012 6:26:18 AM EDT

[#27]

Thanks for all of the advice guys.

I am going to take the leap and submit my FFL 07 app. Then when it's time to renew the SOT closer to July I'll file for the SOT 02.

I'll still have my FFL 01 for another couple years, so I can see how the first couple years as an 07 go. If I'm making enough money I'll register and pay for ITAR, but in the meantime I will only be doing R&D and not selling anything I manufacture. I'll make a couple F2 items and see how it goes. Maybe I'll apply for a CJ or two and see what happens. I'm hoping my 'NRA Endorsed Home-Based FFL insurance' liability coverage will cover me for this endeavour as well. Anyone know?

Any additional advice anyone can give me?

Posted: 2/16/2012 8:08:11 AM EDT

[#28]

Wrong thread

Posted: 2/23/2012 10:36:27 AM EDT

[#29]

so.....if you have a 07 you have to pay ITAR no matter what? There seems to be people saying both yes and no.....I have a 07 and don't manufacture anything. I refinish firearms and then send them back to people...all here in the US....

Posted: 2/23/2012 3:46:34 PM EDT

[#30]

LOL. Not laughing at you...Ask the alphabet agency you pay ITAR fees to and of course they are going to say yes simply because you have the license to do so...and they want your $2250.

Read the law and the answer becomes muddier. Apparently plenty have an 07 and don't pay ITAR. In your situation I don't think I'd worry about it, but it won't be my ass in the sling and I'm not a lawyer. I'd definitely have a discussion with my field agent and confront him withe the facts of what his agency has ruled in writing. Then I'd go 01 or whatever fit my need and not worry about the ITAR fees at all.

Posted: 2/23/2012 4:32:04 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

so.....if you have a 07 you have to pay ITAR no matter what? There seems to be people saying both yes and no.....I have a 07 and don't manufacture anything. I refinish firearms and then send them back to people...all here in the US....

If you do not MFGer anything on the munitions list (which you don't) you do not have to reg with ITAR.

Posted: 2/23/2012 5:34:56 PM EDT

[#32]

it looked pretty cut and dry to me....if you have a 07 you pay the tax period. That is the way I read it. Am I wrong? My filed office supervisor said that the ITAR thing is not there baby and all they can do is tell me what the law is....that was that if you have a 07 you are responsible for the fee. Again its the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.....

I would love for someone to show me exactly where it says that a person that has a 07 does not have to pay the tax...............someone smarter than me please, please, please help.

Posted: 2/23/2012 6:05:39 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

it looked pretty cut and dry to me....if you have a 07 you pay the tax period. That is the way I read it. Am I wrong?

On what Gov document did you read that?

Posted: 2/23/2012 6:16:45 PM EDT

[#34]

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_122.pdf

Fees must be paid by persons required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) in accordance with Section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) (22 U.S.C. 2778). ITAR registration fees are set forth in Section 22 of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (22 CFR 120-130). Persons required to register include manufacturers, exporters and brokers of defense articles and defense services. Registrants may not establish new entities for the purpose of reducing registration fees.

Posted: 2/23/2012 6:21:41 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_122.pdf

Fees must be paid by persons required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) in accordance with Section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) (22 U.S.C. 2778). ITAR registration fees are set forth in Section 22 of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (22 CFR 120-130). Persons required to register include manufacturers, exporters and brokers of defense articles and defense services. Registrants may not establish new entities for the purpose of reducing registration fees.

Please highlight the part where it says Type 07 FFLs must register regardless of whether they make defense articles or not.

Posted: 2/23/2012 6:27:41 PM EDT

[#36]

Just going on the word "manufacturer"....like I said I don't want to pay this fee nor do I want to go through the hassle of changing my ffl over but i don't want a phone call or letter in the mail in a year or two saying that I owe a butt ton of back taxes.

I know if I call them they are going to tell me that I just need to pay the ITAR because why would they not want my money.......

Posted: 2/23/2012 6:30:59 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Just going on the word "manufacturer"....like I said I don't want to pay this fee nor do I want to go through the hassle of changing my ffl over but i don't want a phone call or letter in the mail in a year or two saying that I owe a butt ton of back taxes.

Not to be an ass, but did you even read the FlowChart I posted on the first page?

This ITAR stuff is so easy I do not know why so many people have trouble with.

Posted: 2/23/2012 6:33:54 PM EDT

[#38]

I did and you are being a ass....I just am getting wrapped around the axles for nothing I think.

can you break it down Barney style for me please.....

Posted: 2/23/2012 7:33:26 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
I did and you are being a ass....I just am getting wrapped around the axles for nothing I think.

can you break it down Barney style for me please.....

Read the quote again.

You are only required to register if you are "manufacturers, exporters and brokers of defense articles and defense services"

If you manufacture other things than defense articles and do not manufacture defense articles, you are good.

Posted: 2/23/2012 7:35:06 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Just going on the word "manufacturer"....like I said I don't want to pay this fee nor do I want to go through the hassle of changing my ffl over but i don't want a phone call or letter in the mail in a year or two saying that I owe a butt ton of back taxes.

Not to be an ass, but did you even read the FlowChart I posted on the first page?

This ITAR stuff is so easy I do not know why so many people have trouble with.

Since I am pretty sure we hung up the axes can you find any examples of CJ letter for exemption on AR 15's (Pistols & Rifles)?

I know some have received them but everyone needs to file their own.

Posted: 2/24/2012 6:28:54 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Just going on the word "manufacturer"....like I said I don't want to pay this fee nor do I want to go through the hassle of changing my ffl over but i don't want a phone call or letter in the mail in a year or two saying that I owe a butt ton of back taxes.

Not to be an ass, but did you even read the FlowChart I posted on the first page?

This ITAR stuff is so easy I do not know why so many people have trouble with.

Since I am pretty sure we hung up the axes can you find any examples of CJ letter for exemption on AR 15's (Pistols & Rifles)?
I know some have received them but everyone needs to file their own.

+1 on this. A guide or at least and example would be invaluable, even if redacted from specific company info.

Posted: 2/24/2012 6:51:06 AM EDT

[#42]

I'm really glad this discussion flared up again!

For you guys that are FFL's please join the www.fflonly.com forums. Sorry public, it's a private forum for FFL's only who prove it. We discuss this stuff on there more. I've started several threads and it went a good ways, but it's still hard to get this information, even out of other dealers. More dealers added to the mix would be great! If you join there, my username is the same there, so search it for some threads I've started on the topics and chime in. Maybe you FFL's with CJ letters would feel safe sharing your letters and info on a private forums for other manufacturers?

Here's an exerpt from the DoS doc on ITAR. It's clear as mud. It says you must register (and pay) even if you don't manufacture anything. I know plenty of 07's who manufacture nothing and who don't register for ITAR.

Me, I'll be doing R&D for awhile, which as you can see is clearly exempt. I sent my 07 app in last week, and I'll buy the SOT 02 before July. I'll likely keep my 01 though just in case.

http://i.imgur.com/iQY2r.jpg

Posted: 2/24/2012 6:59:55 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

It says you must register (and pay) even if you don't manufacture anything.

No it does not say that. Read it again.

Posted: 2/24/2012 7:20:47 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It says you must register (and pay) even if you don't manufacture anything.

No it does not say that. Read it again.

"Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

A FFL 07 is a 'manufacturing license', so you are a 'manufacturer'. There is no way to 'register' without 'paying'.

Where do you see it doesn't say it? It is not what the DoS says in writing.

Posted: 2/24/2012 7:57:45 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It says you must register (and pay) even if you don't manufacture anything.

No it does not say that. Read it again.

"Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

A FFL 07 is a 'manufacturing license', so you are a 'manufacturer'. There is no way to 'register' without 'paying'.

Where do you see it doesn't say it? It is not what the DoS says in writing.

You have to be "in the business of MFG/EXP Defense Articles" and not meet one of the exemptions. Having a license to MFG means nothing. Not having a license meets nothing. You need to read the entire thing, not cherry pick certain parts.

By your logic someone who MFGs light bulbs would have to register since they are manufacturers.

This is why Colt has to register but Johnny Doe making a SBR on Form 1 does not. Both make a single instance of a defense article, but Johnny is NOT "in the business", while Colt is.

Posted: 2/24/2012 8:03:57 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It says you must register (and pay) even if you don't manufacture anything.

No it does not say that. Read it again.

"Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

A FFL 07 is a 'manufacturing license', so you are a 'manufacturer'. There is no way to 'register' without 'paying'.

Where do you see it doesn't say it? It is not what the DoS says in writing.

Is it really that hard to read? I find it hard to believe people cannot read this. You have to be "in the business of MFG/EXP Defense Articles" and not meet one of the exemptions. Having a license to MFG means nothing. Not having a license meets nothing. You need to read the entire thing, not cherry pick certain parts.

By your logic someone who MFGs light bulbs would have to register since they are manufacturers.

This is why Colt has to register but Johnny Doe making a SBR on Form 1 does not. Both make a single instance of a defense article, but Johnny is NOT "in the business", while Colt is.

Feeling a bit pompous today perhaps?

I agree with your statments, however, you're not a prosecuting attorney for the DoS, so while I can read, and while I can clearly see what you are saying, it does not literally say what we are discussing. Johnny Doe isn't a 'manufacturer' as he is not licensed, and he is making 1 item for his personal use, which is not manufacturing either.

OK so you don't register if you're an 07, but don't make anything.
what happens when you are an 07 and you do make something?

Posted: 2/24/2012 8:32:34 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

I agree with your statments, however, you're not a prosecuting attorney for the DoS, so while I can read, and while I can clearly see what you are saying, it does not literally say what we are discussing. Johnny Doe isn't a 'manufacturer' as he is not licensed, and he is making 1 item for his personal use, which is not manufacturing either.

Nowhere in the law does it mention anything about BATFE licensing. Licensing has nothing to do with it. If you are a convicted felon who cannot get an FFL and instead make G3 night vision scopes (without reticles even), you have to register.

OK so you don't register if you're an 07, but don't make anything.

what happens when you are an 07 and you do make something?

The FlowChart will answer this.

.....

Posted: 2/24/2012 10:43:29 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It says you must register (and pay) even if you don't manufacture anything.

No it does not say that. Read it again.

Correct , it says MFGering defense articles, I'm pretty sure it means items on the munitions list as stated before.

Posted: 3/8/2012 6:25:47 AM EDT

[#49]

As usual I keep digging. My FFL 07 was approved and the SOT 02 will be paid for July 1st. I believe we're all in agreeance here that ITAR is not needed unless you will be actually manufacturing and selling Munitions List items. That is fine. I will look into CJ's for some of the items I intend to make. Might get lucky there.

Here's a question: What happens when you make a post sample MG? A post sample can't be for 'R&D' or testing purposes only, it has to be a 'sales sample', 'stockpiled for future sale', 'exported', and/or 'offered for sale to qualified agencies'.

Does this implicitly mean that one must register and pay ITAR if they Form 2 a post sample? A post sample in a legal sense has to be made to be sold. If you are manufacturing for R&D that is one thing, and it isn't being sold, and hence it is an R&D exemption to ITAR. A post sample however with the ability for sales upon the creation of it leads me to believe that the DoS could get nasty if they found out there was no ITAR registration.

R&D: SBR, SBS, AOW, pistol, rifle, etc. No ITAR, exempt, unless you intend to sell items.

'Sales Sample': Post sample MG. 'Needs' to be 'offered for sale'. Can't be 'R&D'. Seems that ITAR would be necessary if you made a post sample.

What's the thoughts from the industry pro's? Have any of you created a post sample and sold and/or kept it knowing you weren't registered with ITAR due to exemptions, etc?

Posted: 3/12/2012 3:42:30 PM EDT

[#50]

Okay, I'm sorry if this has already been answered. But after reading this info I still am confused. So if you have a 01 and want to install lpk in a stripped lower for a customer or you have a couple of stripped lowers that you want to install a lpk in and then sell can I do it with the 01 or do I have to have an 07?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do 07 FFL's need to pay the ITAR fees? (Page 2 of 3)

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