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Posted: 4/2/2022 12:51:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Short recoil as in...You think the barrel moves? I must be missing what you mean..Can you elaborate? the barrel does in fact move, yes. it is a hybrid gas + short recoil operating mechanism. you can see it move whenever the gun shoots, and there is even a promotional video of a CGI cutaway gun showing the action cycling. |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 1:04:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the barrel does in fact move, yes. it is a hybrid gas + short recoil operating mechanism. you can see it move whenever the gun shoots, and there is even a promotional video of a CGI cutaway gun showing the action cycling. So short recoil as in like the Barrett. Is it possible that on semi auto ((its closed bolt on this setting) its only gas operated and on Full Auto (its open bolt on this setting) in it incorporates the short recoil operation? |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 1:32:45 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So short recoil as in like the Barrett. Is it possible that on semi auto ((its closed bolt on this setting) its only gas operated and on Full Auto (its open bolt on this setting) in it incorporates the short recoil operation? well yeah there's only one "short recoil" system. changing the operating system sounds incredibly complicated. besides the fact that it wouldn't improve accuracy. the moment you go full auto, the barrel changes POI. going back to semi wouldn't un-shift your zero. the deed is done. |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 10:18:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: well yeah there's only one "short recoil" system. changing the operating system sounds incredibly complicated. besides the fact that it wouldn't improve accuracy. the moment you go full auto, the barrel changes POI. going back to semi wouldn't un-shift your zero. the deed is done. Well I guess we will see what it ends up being when Barretta begins selling some to us Civys.. |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 4:14:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Well I guess we will see what it ends up being when Barretta begins selling some to us Civys.. i haven't heard anything about the operating mechanism changing and i seriously doubt it. in any case, if you want to take advantage of the cartridge, the best thing to do is to get a different gun. i'm sure desert tech will make a barrel, and you better believe tons of others will be making guns for the new service cartridge. so it's just a matter of time. or you could just get the beretta and live with your ~800m mechanical limit. this is about as far as the barretts are ever shot, even thought they're chambered for .50 BMG. they just can't hit reliably past 800-1000. |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 7:47:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i haven't heard anything about the operating mechanism changing and i seriously doubt it. in any case, if you want to take advantage of the cartridge, the best thing to do is to get a different gun. i'm sure desert tech will make a barrel, and you better believe tons of others will be making guns for the new service cartridge. so it's just a matter of time. or you could just get the beretta and live with your ~800m mechanical limit. this is about as far as the barretts are ever shot, even thought they're chambered for .50 BMG. they just can't hit reliably past 800-1000. Eh 800m is plenty for me. |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 7:50:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i haven't heard anything about the operating mechanism changing and i seriously doubt it. in any case, if you want to take advantage of the cartridge, the best thing to do is to get a different gun. i'm sure desert tech will make a barrel, and you better believe tons of others will be making guns for the new service cartridge. so it's just a matter of time. or you could just get the beretta and live with your ~800m mechanical limit. this is about as far as the barretts are ever shot, even thought they're chambered for .50 BMG. they just can't hit reliably past 800-1000. You seem to be exceedingly negative on everything you've posted about; this and the MDRx. I would think that having made the cut to the final evaluation that the accuracy issue you claim exists either doesn't in the real world or isn't enough to make a difference. Given that the overwhelming majority of semi-automatic handguns currently produced are short recoil, and they offer good to excellent accuracy, I think you're trying to build a feature of the system into something you can use to bash it with. |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 9:03:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You seem to be exceedingly negative on everything you've posted about; this and the MDRx. I would think that having made the cut to the final evaluation that the accuracy issue you claim exists either doesn't in the real world or isn't enough to make a difference. Given that the overwhelming majority of semi-automatic handguns currently produced are short recoil, and they offer good to excellent accuracy, I think you're trying to build a feature of the system into something you can use to bash it with. who's shooting glocks past 150? it doesn't matter for handguns, but that goes without saying. why did you even bring them up? the NGSW's effective range requirement is 800m(?), which makes sense given that they are issuing it with a 1-8 optic. i said the short recoil gun would likely be effective from 800-1000m, a far cry from a handgun, and within requirements for the contract. i don't like it because the cartridge is capable of more, as it performs similarly to 270 winchester. what is your hangup? when did i say anything incorrect or unreasonable? |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 9:13:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: who's shooting glocks past 150? it doesn't matter for handguns, but that goes without saying. why did you even bring them up? the NGSW's effective range requirement is 800m(?), which makes sense given that they are issuing it with a 1-8 optic. i said the short recoil gun would likely be effective from 800-1000m, a far cry from a handgun, and within requirements for the contract. i don't like it because the cartridge is capable of more, as it performs similarly to 270 winchester. what is your hangup? when did i say anything incorrect or unreasonable? Have I met you on the Desert Tech Reddits? |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 9:27:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have I met you on the Desert Tech Reddits? i do not use reddit |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 9:42:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: who's shooting glocks past 150? it doesn't matter for handguns, but that goes without saying. why did you even bring them up? the NGSW's effective range requirement is 800m(?), which makes sense given that they are issuing it with a 1-8 optic. i said the short recoil gun would likely be effective from 800-1000m, a far cry from a handgun, and within requirements for the contract. i don't like it because the cartridge is capable of more, as it performs similarly to 270 winchester. what is your hangup? when did i say anything incorrect or unreasonable? If you can't understand or conceive why I made the arguments I made, then discussing this with you is a waste of my time. Pax |
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Posted: 4/2/2022 10:24:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can't understand or conceive why I made the arguments I made, then discussing this with you is a waste of my time. Pax yeah i'm just too stupid to understand your nuanced opinion that i complain too much |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 3:27:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SO..uh..what ballistics are you seeing.. SO far..Everything Ive found says Both the 6.8tvc and 277 fury are the same 6.8x51 135gr projectile traveling at the same velocity.. One does it with a 13in barrel @ 80k psi (Steel/Brass case combo)..the other a 19inch barrel @ 60k psi (Polymer case)..Both at 3000fps. (There is a similar loading in 308 as well..same bullet weight...same velocity. tho they dont list the barrel length..same energy on target) Ive been looking for terminal ballistics on these for a while..so if you got something. Please share. Based on some digging I did on this, & assuming the assertions are true, the TV cartridge is actually capable of handling 80K+ psi. If so, we could potentially see a hybrid cartridge/ammo contract award for both SIG & TV, because while I like the BP, I'm thinking the Army is culturally wed to the AR & will favor the SIG NGSW entry just for that reason; I don't buy the claim that the hybrid brass/steel cased 277 Fury ammo is lighter, or even meets the weight, which is why I believe it's being given a pass just to keep the gun in the running so it can get the nod. By contrast, the TV ammo is a no-brainer from any perspective, but let's see how stupid government can be this time around. |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 3:40:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Based on some digging I did on this, & assuming the assertions are true, the TV cartridge is actually capable of handling 80K+ psi. If so, we could potentially see a hybrid cartridge/ammo contract award for both SIG & TV, because while I like the BP, I'm thinking the Army is culturally wed to the AR & will favor the SIG NGSW entry just for that reason; I don't buy the claim that the hybrid brass/steel cased 277 Fury ammo is lighter, or even meets the weight, which is why I believe it's being given a pass just to keep the gun in the running so it can get the nod. By contrast, the TV ammo is a no-brainer from any perspective, but let's see how stupid government can be this time around. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: SO..uh..what ballistics are you seeing.. SO far..Everything Ive found says Both the 6.8tvc and 277 fury are the same 6.8x51 135gr projectile traveling at the same velocity.. One does it with a 13in barrel @ 80k psi (Steel/Brass case combo)..the other a 19inch barrel @ 60k psi (Polymer case)..Both at 3000fps. (There is a similar loading in 308 as well..same bullet weight...same velocity. tho they dont list the barrel length..same energy on target) Ive been looking for terminal ballistics on these for a while..so if you got something. Please share. Based on some digging I did on this, & assuming the assertions are true, the TV cartridge is actually capable of handling 80K+ psi. If so, we could potentially see a hybrid cartridge/ammo contract award for both SIG & TV, because while I like the BP, I'm thinking the Army is culturally wed to the AR & will favor the SIG NGSW entry just for that reason; I don't buy the claim that the hybrid brass/steel cased 277 Fury ammo is lighter, or even meets the weight, which is why I believe it's being given a pass just to keep the gun in the running so it can get the nod. By contrast, the TV ammo is a no-brainer from any perspective, but let's see how stupid government can be this time around. Maybe, but there are a couple of things to consider. 1. Sig has won a bunch of contracts lately, like every contract they've competed in except CSASS as far as I can remember, and the Army likes a diversified industrial base. For that reason alone I would tend to think TV/Beretta have an advantage. 2. Watching the videos of smaller statured people try to shoot the MCX Spear, it's obviously heavy and/or ungainly. Smaller statured female soldiers which are now in combat arms units may be better off with a more neutrally balanced bullpup. Especially once you add the next gen optic. 3. It's possible Sig is making the brass thinner where it doesn't need to be thick since they have a steel base to handle the pressure, so it might very well be as light as TVCM. If course, it's all just fun speculation for now. It's like talking about who might win the NCAA tournament tonight. Except I'd rather talk about guns than basketball. |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 5:15:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Based on some digging I did on this, & assuming the assertions are true, the TV cartridge is actually capable of handling 80K+ psi. If so, we could potentially see a hybrid cartridge/ammo contract award for both SIG & TV, because while I like the BP, I'm thinking the Army is culturally wed to the AR & will favor the SIG NGSW entry just for that reason; I don't buy the claim that the hybrid brass/steel cased 277 Fury ammo is lighter, or even meets the weight, which is why I believe it's being given a pass just to keep the gun in the running so it can get the nod. By contrast, the TV ammo is a no-brainer from any perspective, but let's see how stupid government can be this time around. that's not how contracts work. they can't award it to both companies for a hypothetical product that may not even work. it would require them to do the trials all over again to progress from prototype to functional example and allow other companies to compete. robinson armament failed the SCAR program because they forgot to add blank firing adapters. these programs are for billions of dollars, you can't award it for something that does not exist. |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 6:03:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Based on some digging I did on this, & assuming the assertions are true, the TV cartridge is actually capable of handling 80K+ psi. If so, we could potentially see a hybrid cartridge/ammo contract award for both SIG & TV, because while I like the BP, I'm thinking the Army is culturally wed to the AR & will favor the SIG NGSW entry just for that reason; I don't buy the claim that the hybrid brass/steel cased 277 Fury ammo is lighter, or even meets the weight, which is why I believe it's being given a pass just to keep the gun in the running so it can get the nod. By contrast, the TV ammo is a no-brainer from any perspective, but let's see how stupid government can be this time around. There will be no splitting of the ammo and firearm. Contract the military thinks is best, becomes the winner (Gun +Ammo. This was covered very early in the NGSW testing). The TV cartridge + Rifle 'might' be able to handle 80k psi..But why do that going with a bullpup with a longer barrel to achieve the same velocity as the Sig contract? |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 8:27:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that's not how contracts work. they can't award it to both companies for a hypothetical product that may not even work. it would require them to do the trials all over again to progress from prototype to functional example and allow other companies to compete. robinson armament failed the SCAR program because they forgot to add blank firing adapters. these programs are for billions of dollars, you can't award it for something that does not exist. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Based on some digging I did on this, & assuming the assertions are true, the TV cartridge is actually capable of handling 80K+ psi. If so, we could potentially see a hybrid cartridge/ammo contract award for both SIG & TV, because while I like the BP, I'm thinking the Army is culturally wed to the AR & will favor the SIG NGSW entry just for that reason; I don't buy the claim that the hybrid brass/steel cased 277 Fury ammo is lighter, or even meets the weight, which is why I believe it's being given a pass just to keep the gun in the running so it can get the nod. By contrast, the TV ammo is a no-brainer from any perspective, but let's see how stupid government can be this time around. that's not how contracts work. they can't award it to both companies for a hypothetical product that may not even work. it would require them to do the trials all over again to progress from prototype to functional example and allow other companies to compete. robinson armament failed the SCAR program because they forgot to add blank firing adapters. these programs are for billions of dollars, you can't award it for something that does not exist. Yeah, I think if they decided they wanted the TVCM round but a different gun, they would have to specify a whole new competition for a weapon system to shoot it. EDIT: Let me offer another alternative. What if the .gov awards the minimum buy allowed by the contract to TVFW/Beretta just to get it into the system? Then they have it and could do OTAs to purchase upgrade kits for their other weapons or even run another competition to select a standard issue rifle for the rest of the military using the now in-system TVCM round. For example, sole source contracts for M110 uppers, SCAR barrels, etc... Then compete the rifle for everybody else, could select the MCX Spear chambered in 6.8 TVCM or anything else for that matter, like a KAC APC or Colt 901. |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 2:42:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Yeah, I think if they decided they wanted the TVCM round but a different gun, they would have to specify a whole new competition for a weapon system to shoot it. EDIT: Let me offer another alternative. What if the .gov awards the minimum buy allowed by the contract to TVFW/Beretta just to get it into the system? Then they have it and could do OTAs to purchase upgrade kits for their other weapons or even run another competition to select a standard issue rifle for the rest of the military using the now in-system TVCM round. For example, sole source contracts for M110 uppers, SCAR barrels, etc... Then compete the rifle for everybody else, could select the MCX Spear chambered in 6.8 TVCM or anything else for that matter, like a KAC APC or Colt 901. i think they will do that, as far as rebarreling is concerned. that's the major advantage of TVCM, they already partnered with a lot of companies that have retail offerings for their 6.8 cartridge. they could, but will not, order the minimum beretta rifles, and then buy sigs anyways. it's adding a lot of logistical headache for something the army doesn't care about. they need it to shoot 800m, the beretta gun does that. the fact that the sig with it's fixed barrel could be capable of more is of no consequence. soldiers are not trained well enough, the sighting system is not powerful enough, and most importantly, it's not in the contract. they're not going to work harder if they don't have to. more important than the minutae of the service rifle's features is the logistical burden. this is why the bullpup will win, it offers a drop-in solution for existing platforms from multiple professional vendors that have a lot of clout and experience with the army. |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 4:06:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I think if they decided they wanted the TVCM round but a different gun, they would have to specify a whole new competition for a weapon system to shoot it. EDIT: Let me offer another alternative. What if the .gov awards the minimum buy allowed by the contract to TVFW/Beretta just to get it into the system? Then they have it and could do OTAs to purchase upgrade kits for their other weapons or even run another competition to select a standard issue rifle for the rest of the military using the now in-system TVCM round. For example, sole source contracts for M110 uppers, SCAR barrels, etc... Then compete the rifle for everybody else, could select the MCX Spear chambered in 6.8 TVCM or anything else for that matter, like a KAC APC or Colt 901. What would suck for the SPEAR using the 6.8 TVC is its 16" barrel wont be producing the same velocities and the RM277...Holy crap is the SPEAR expensive. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 6:37:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What would suck for the SPEAR using the 6.8 TVC is its 16" barrel wont be producing the same velocities and the RM277...Holy crap is the SPEAR expensive. As I posted above, the 6.8 TVC is capable of handling 80K+ psi. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 7:13:56 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What would suck for the SPEAR using the 6.8 TVC is its 16" barrel wont be producing the same velocities and the RM277...Holy crap is the SPEAR expensive. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah, I think if they decided they wanted the TVCM round but a different gun, they would have to specify a whole new competition for a weapon system to shoot it. EDIT: Let me offer another alternative. What if the .gov awards the minimum buy allowed by the contract to TVFW/Beretta just to get it into the system? Then they have it and could do OTAs to purchase upgrade kits for their other weapons or even run another competition to select a standard issue rifle for the rest of the military using the now in-system TVCM round. For example, sole source contracts for M110 uppers, SCAR barrels, etc... Then compete the rifle for everybody else, could select the MCX Spear chambered in 6.8 TVCM or anything else for that matter, like a KAC APC or Colt 901. What would suck for the SPEAR using the 6.8 TVC is its 16" barrel wont be producing the same velocities and the RM277...Holy crap is the SPEAR expensive. The price you've seen for the Spear is only for the special limited edition guns. The regular ones will be normally priced for a high end 762 piston gun. JSJ mentioned slightly more than the Virtus. EDIT: To be clear, I like bullpups and I also like my MCX. I have no preference in this. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 10:05:41 AM EDT
[#22]
They need to manufacture the potato domestically so we can buy that part too.
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Posted: 4/6/2022 10:22:10 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I posted above, the 6.8 TVC is capable of handling 80K+ psi. Yea but a better question. Will All guns capable of shooting 6.8 TVC be able to handle the higher 80k psi? While I'm sure the cartridge's can handle it..I don't see why TVC would offer the higher PSI variant. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 3:11:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yea but a better question. Will All guns capable of shooting 6.8 TVC be able to handle the higher 80k psi? While I'm sure the cartridge's can handle it..I don't see why TVC would offer the higher PSI variant. There is differing information about the TVCM cartridge specs. They initially claimed 150 gr bullet hitting 2.7K fps & max avg 6.5K psi, while SAAMI spec certification holds the round is 135 gr moving at 3K fps. Either way, the psi figure is in the range of current firearms, & even if you have to drop pressure some, that's a heavier round with a velocity in 5.56 territory. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 4:56:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They need to manufacture the potato domestically so we can buy that part too. they do. it's the brevis delta P. |
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Posted: 4/9/2022 11:13:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is differing information about the TVCM cartridge specs. They initially claimed 150 gr bullet hitting 2.7K fps & max avg 6.5K psi, while SAAMI spec certification holds the round is 135 gr moving at 3K fps. Either way, the psi figure is in the range of current firearms, & even if you have to drop pressure some, that's a heavier round with a velocity in 5.56 territory. Might be the difference between the Civvy [SAAMI] version and the Milspec version [supposedly there is supposed to be a difference] |
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Posted: 4/10/2022 3:08:37 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Might be the difference between the Civvy [SAAMI] version and the Milspec version [supposedly there is supposed to be a difference] Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is differing information about the TVCM cartridge specs. They initially claimed 150 gr bullet hitting 2.7K fps & max avg 6.5K psi, while SAAMI spec certification holds the round is 135 gr moving at 3K fps. Either way, the psi figure is in the range of current firearms, & even if you have to drop pressure some, that's a heavier round with a velocity in 5.56 territory. Might be the difference between the Civvy [SAAMI] version and the Milspec version [supposedly there is supposed to be a difference] Possibly. In any case, the TVCM cartridge can meet the performance requirement in the NGSW, & also work in legacy guns. In fact, the Army now wants a 6.8 conversion kit for the M240 B & L, per TFB. Supposed to announce the program winner this month. ETA, edited for syntax. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:23:56 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Possibly. In any case, the TVCM cartridge can meet the performance requirement in the NGSW legacy guns, & also work in legacy guns. In fact, the Army now wants a 6.8 conversion kit for the M240 B & L, per TFB. Supposed to announce the program winner this month. That right there makes me think they are going for the TVC cartridge as I do not believe the M240 could handle long term use of the Sig version due to the 80k PSI chamber pressures used to get the velocity required out of a short barrel. In fact if you compare the NGSW Sig vs TV/Beretta/GD entries, Sig requires all new guns due to the cartridge while the TV ammo stays within legacy pressures across the board. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:04:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That right there makes me think they are going for the TVC cartridge as I do not believe the M240 could handle long term use of the Sig version due to the 80k PSI chamber pressures used to get the velocity required out of a short barrel. In fact if you compare the NGSW Sig vs TV/Beretta/GD entries, Sig requires all new guns due to the cartridge while the TV ammo stays within legacy pressures across the board. Precisely. One of the videos showed TVC converting, on the fly with just a barrel change, a 240 from 7.62x51 to their cartridge. They also did it with a M134 and IIRC, a Remington 700. All it needed was a barrel swap. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 8:14:24 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 4/19/2022 8:18:36 PM EDT
[#31]
well that sucks.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 8:53:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: well that sucks. It does..and it all could be related to these 2 bids GP machineguns |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 9:00:05 PM EDT
[#33]
possibly. I just wonder if they are going to regret this down the road. Sure, might look good on paper, till they are replacing bolt carrier rails, barrels, and other stuff every other firefight...
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Posted: 4/19/2022 9:22:35 PM EDT
[#34]
I mean..Both these guns have been in testing for the last few years.. Gotta be more that "just on paper" stuff.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 9:45:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.army.mil/article/255827/army_awards_next_generation_squad_weapon_contract Rm277 lost I expect the TVC/Beretta team to file a challenge to this. Unless there’s something that no one knows about and the Sig price is dirt cheap, I think they have a case. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 2:02:31 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I expect the TVC/Beretta team to file a challenge to this. Unless there’s something that no one knows about and the Sig price is dirt cheap, I think they have a case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.army.mil/article/255827/army_awards_next_generation_squad_weapon_contract Rm277 lost I expect the TVC/Beretta team to file a challenge to this. Unless there’s something that no one knows about and the Sig price is dirt cheap, I think they have a case. Not too surprised. Like I said earlier, the BP configuration is a "radical" departure, while SIG Spear has built-in familiarity, being based on the AR platform. The 277 FURY is going to be useless outside of the platform, though. I think that's a major flaw in the selection (Except, of course, that this will create "opportunities" for future small arms contracts to replace other, now incompatible legacy arms. There must be some future retired general "director" positions opening at SIG). The TVC 277 represents the cutting edge in ammunition development on both the design & manufacturing fronts, & would be logistically complimentary to legacy inventories. But simplicity & efficiency don't jive with the profit motive. There's also no way that it's a lighter cartridge; the materials in the case design (steel case head + brass body + locking washer) simply don't make that possible. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 2:49:31 AM EDT
[#37]
I'm not surprised, though I hope the polymer case ammo work doesn't get wasted. That was the primary thing I was looking forward to, and the RM277 was secondary to that.
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:41:34 AM EDT
[#38]
A few opinions, as one might expect on the internet, have been posted.
I think, as I read through them, that the big deal here was really the Sig machine gun. The reality is that the Sig machinegun was just a better choice. And for the army, machineguns rule the day. In hindsight, I think the Army should have done this differently. If they had done an ammunition competition first, using a baseline AR-10, selected the ammunition, and then competed the MG and rifle separately, I think the end result could have been that we got the TVCM ammunition and RM277 combined with the Sig machinegun chambered in 6.8TVCM. For that matter, there probably would have been more competing designs. So who knows what would have happened... |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:52:43 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's also no way that it's a lighter cartridge; the materials in the case design (steel case head + brass body + locking washer) simply don't make that possible. IIRC it was only supposed to be 10% lighter than "comparable cartridges"... everyone of course assumed comparing to 5.56 till the specs got out. 10% lighter than 7.62 NATO maybe... The TVC is 20% lighter than "comparable cartridges" which is much more significant IMHO. Add the fact the internal geometry is supposedly more efficient requiring less powder for the same or better performance... |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:03:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A few opinions, as one might expect on the internet, have been posted. I think, as I read through them, that the big deal here was really the Sig machine gun. The reality is that the Sig machinegun was just a better choice. And for the army, machineguns rule the day. In hindsight, I think the Army should have done this differently. If they had done an ammunition competition first, using a baseline AR-10, selected the ammunition, and then competed the MG and rifle separately, I think the end result could have been that we got the TVCM ammunition and RM277 combined with the Sig machinegun chambered in 6.8TVCM. For that matter, there probably would have been more competing designs. So who knows what would have happened... I agree. The GD/TV offering made the mistake of assuming the US military would want to save money by being able to just rebarrel their M240B/Ls and keep using those. If they'd been smart, they might have contracted with Knights Armament and used their LMG as the entry vs the Sig LMG/SAW entrant. What the Army wanted really was a new LMG/SAW [New Generation Squad Weapon], and what GD/TV/Beretta gave them was a "New Generation Individual Weapon/Automatic Rifle" and didn't add a SAW to the equation... and as a result the best cartridge loses while the best new LMG/SAW and worst cartrdige wins. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 11:30:17 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. The GD/TV offering made the mistake of assuming the US military would want to save money by being able to just rebarrel their M240B/Ls and keep using those. If they'd been smart, they might have contracted with Knights Armament and used their LMG as the entry vs the Sig LMG/SAW entrant. What the Army wanted really was a new LMG/SAW [New Generation Squad Weapon], and what GD/TV/Beretta gave them was a "New Generation Individual Weapon/Automatic Rifle" and didn't add a SAW to the equation... and as a result the best cartridge loses while the best new LMG/SAW and worst cartrdige wins. Well put but with one caveat. Sig won a design competition but the proprietary ammunition likely means they won’t sell anything to the military beyond demonstrators. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 11:39:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well put but with one caveat. Sig won a design competition but the proprietary ammunition likely means they won’t sell anything to the military beyond demonstrators. Could you clarify that? part of "winning" is they are supposed to produce them for the military as "winning" included a contract for X number of weapons and Y number of ammo. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 11:47:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could you clarify that? part of "winning" is they are supposed to produce them for the military as "winning" included a contract for X number of weapons and Y number of ammo. $20.4m for the next phase. What usually happens with these Good Ideas is everything gets qualified and ready to go and someone looks at the costs and just doesn’t place an order. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 12:15:08 PM EDT
[#44]
perhaps, but they still got the contract, which is another win for them after getting the M17/18 contract to replace the M9
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Posted: 4/20/2022 12:44:17 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: perhaps, but they still got the contract, which is another win for them after getting the M17/18 contract to replace the M9 Sig shouldn't count their money just yet. I'm sure TVC is going to file a protest on the contract. Personally, I'd love to see the rating criteria that scored the Sig bid as better...I would think that there is some really gold medal Olympic class gymnastics going on with it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 1:32:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. The GD/TV offering made the mistake of assuming the US military would want to save money by being able to just rebarrel their M240B/Ls and keep using those. If they'd been smart, they might have contracted with Knights Armament and used their LMG as the entry vs the Sig LMG/SAW entrant. What the Army wanted really was a new LMG/SAW [New Generation Squad Weapon], and what GD/TV/Beretta gave them was a "New Generation Individual Weapon/Automatic Rifle" and didn't add a SAW to the equation... and as a result the best cartridge loses while the best new LMG/SAW and worst cartrdige wins. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A few opinions, as one might expect on the internet, have been posted. I think, as I read through them, that the big deal here was really the Sig machine gun. The reality is that the Sig machinegun was just a better choice. And for the army, machineguns rule the day. In hindsight, I think the Army should have done this differently. If they had done an ammunition competition first, using a baseline AR-10, selected the ammunition, and then competed the MG and rifle separately, I think the end result could have been that we got the TVCM ammunition and RM277 combined with the Sig machinegun chambered in 6.8TVCM. For that matter, there probably would have been more competing designs. So who knows what would have happened... I agree. The GD/TV offering made the mistake of assuming the US military would want to save money by being able to just rebarrel their M240B/Ls and keep using those. If they'd been smart, they might have contracted with Knights Armament and used their LMG as the entry vs the Sig LMG/SAW entrant. What the Army wanted really was a new LMG/SAW [New Generation Squad Weapon], and what GD/TV/Beretta gave them was a "New Generation Individual Weapon/Automatic Rifle" and didn't add a SAW to the equation... and as a result the best cartridge loses while the best new LMG/SAW and worst cartrdige wins. I think you both covered it. Be interesting to see if this latest small arms program actually achieves the intended, but elusive goal of replacing the primary issue service rifle. Color me doubtful. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:27:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: they do. it's the brevis delta P. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They need to manufacture the potato domestically so we can buy that part too. they do. it's the brevis delta P. Just watched a video on it, interesting... |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:38:06 PM EDT
[#48]
I think the True Velocity teams strategic mistake was not offering a belt fed and instead bidding an "automatic rifle". The Marines are bought into the concept but it was always going to be a long putt for big army to give up on belt feds.
Hope the civilian version is still coming in any event. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 3:34:07 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 4/22/2022 9:46:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the True Velocity teams strategic mistake was not offering a belt fed and instead bidding an "automatic rifle". The Marines are bought into the concept but it was always going to be a long putt for big army to give up on belt feds. Hope the civilian version is still coming in any event. Same page. But really, I'm also wondering if the program & the round will survive. NATO isn't going to embrace it, so there's that. But exclusivity of its application to just 2 arms in the entire inventory adds to the impracticality factor. I'm also just not a fan of the 277 Fury 80k psi & "hybrid case" concept, but the commercial variant will be performance neutered, so it will be wanting in comparison to 7.62x51 anyway. Unfortunately, TVCM 6.8 won't have the financial push behind it to support volume supply & economic scaling to propel widespread market adoption. That is, of course, unless Big Army decides that legacy arms in 6.8 really should be a thing & revisits the TV round, which would be a more practical & forward-thinking option. |
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