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Posted: 9/11/2010 7:52:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 7:55:59 PM EDT by Dieter122]
Bought a stg556 package for 1600 bucks back last december through ratworx....I think it was the 7th. Rifle came in and I couldn't zero the optic. Tried on 3 different range trips. I spoke to msar dave who said they knew a bunch of the optics were crap and broke as they had a lot of returns. He sent out a rail for me after about 2 weeks. Got the rail but nothing to mount on it. So now I've got a gun that's been sitting and getting zero use since I got it aside from trying to zero a busted 250 dollar optic that came with it. I contacted msar again and asked thr status of the new optics being made and all I got was "dave is no longer with us". No mention of new optics. I write back again asking. They reply saying there is no new news about new ones being produced and distributed to people who got boned over with junk that shoots 4ft low and won't zero. Its coming up on a year and I am pretty sure its been ample time to get something arranged if they gave an honest effort. Instead since that last email to them which I simply stated that I've waited a long time and plenty long to get a replacement....they have ignored my most recent message. Now I've got a 1600 dollar gun collecting dust and a busted 250 dollar optic they slapped together. I wanted a stg556 as it was very close to an aug clone. I didn't want a railed gun and have to buy a seperate optic. If I knew this was going to happen I would of passed alltogether. Is MSAR going to make good and make new optics or are we all $hit out of luck? A year is more than enough time. No one has that kind of patience for things to be made right and to be given good CS. Sorry no paragraphs as I wrote this from my cell
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 10:46:04 PM EDT
have you called them or only emailed them?
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:07:49 AM EDT
Damn...who knew one guy was carrying so much weight...
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:24:06 AM EDT
I don't think MSAR-Dave works for the company any more. I recall a thread a while back where he said he was leaving for bigger and better things.

You might want to contact the company or try their forum here.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:40:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scoutfsu99:
have you called them or only emailed them?


Email only. Come Monday ill call msar directly however. Msar has a good rep so I hope it all turns out well. Their good customer support is one reason I bought theirs not a TPD. I will be sure to post my results. And yes its too bad about Dave, he was a good contact to have at MSAR.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:46:38 AM EDT
Call and ask for Keith Adkins, if he is still there. Good luck.

Im sent to op.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 5:40:47 AM EDT
This may be a shocking thought, but I think the idea of them sending you the rail is that it was an interim solution for you to mount an optic until they had some sort of new optic available.

I am sorry that MSAR hasn't come through with a new optic for everyone, but honestly I can't imagine anyone leaving a rifle sitting in a corner for a year because of this situation- they sent you the rail to hold you over until they can offer something better, it is not like they left you completely in the cold.

You can always pick up another factory optic, or go drop $120 on a Primary Arms 1-4x scope or even just a $75 red dot. I know it sucks, but sometimes life isn't perfect and you have to make due.

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 6:30:23 AM EDT
Dawg. I'm sure you are a nice guy but you are making it sound like it is his fault his gun is screwed up. His gun should have been GTG since day one. It wasn't and that is the fault of MSAR. I don't blame him for being upset. A lot of times when someone has something negative to say about MSAR you chime in and come to rescue MSAR. Are you their self appointed spokesperson? The guys gun is screwed up it is MSAR's fault end of story. MSAR better get it together and stop making excuses for their mistakes or they won't be around long. A guy spends his hard earned money on something it better be GTG or people will start voting with their wallets.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 6:35:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
This may be a shocking thought, but I think the idea of them sending you the rail is that it was an interim solution for you to mount an optic until they had some sort of new optic available.

I am sorry that MSAR hasn't come through with a new optic for everyone, but honestly I can't imagine anyone leaving a rifle sitting in a corner for a year because of this situation- they sent you the rail to hold you over until they can offer something better, it is not like they left you completely in the cold.

You can always pick up another factory optic, or go drop $120 on a Primary Arms 1-4x scope or even just a $75 red dot. I know it sucks, but sometimes life isn't perfect and you have to make due.



Dawg, it isnt a shocking thought. Dave said himself it was an interim solution. However many months later one would think they would of found a "solution". Particularly being that they knew these made in China optics they slapped on the rifles were sub par quality to begin with, after they got numerous reports of them being damaged simply being shipped to customers and not holding zero.

If it was a $50 cheapo China optic, being replaced by a $50 piece of metal rail...well ok. But I paid a premium for this specific optics package, approx $1600. The optic alone is $200-250. When a customer is willing to part with $1600 of their money, you would think a company would put out a decent product. When a rifle scope is damaged in the shipping process to the point of not functioning, I am sorry to say, but its sub par. My crappy Tasco, Target Sports, etc even hold up pretty darn well, and they cost a mere fraction of this AUG type optic.

$1600 is the most ive spent on a single rifle, followed only by my Vector Arms V93 which I spent $1200+ on. No matter who you are, $1200 is a lot and things should be "right". No one should have to be stuck with a $200 piece of junk then have to go out and spend more on a separately purchased optic so they can use the rifle that they already have big bucks into.

I really dont want to wait more than a year for them to get their act together in getting a new company to produce an optic. They have no problem developing new generation rifles of the line, and pumping them out in numbers. There isnt any money in producing and replacing optics for previous customers, maybe that is why. I fear waiting any longer will either result in a "sorry, we have discontinued pursuing producing new optics" or the company folds up shop and I am really stuck. Neither are far flung, as well as you may like to think of a company.

If I sold you a optic I knew sucked and probably would of broke enroute to you, then I tell you ...well...just hold on....for a year... while your out $200, you would be pretty pissed and give me a negative feedback, despite my promises. I know life isnt perfect, but things can be done to try and make it better. But again, one has to try.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 6:38:23 AM EDT
I had a similar problem with a different company.

Try and get the name of the company they were using for the optics and then try dealing with that company. Chances are you'll get further since MSAR never made the optic themselves and no longer orders it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 7:51:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 7:51:55 AM EDT by Dawg180]
Matt,

My apologies if I came off as harsh, even I should know better than to post before the first cup of coffee in the morning! You have a defective product and it should be made right.

For the record, I too had a bad optic on my MSAR, so I know what you are going through to a degree. I actually had the *first* optic to go 'tits up' and at the time MSAR was not sending a 'compensation rail' to hold me over while the gun was being worked on, so I guess my perspective on the whole 'I can't use my gun' is a bit colored- I truly could not use my rifle, you at least have the option to mount something on it. I was lucky enough to get a replacement optic, so once again, the situation is a little different.

When I read a thread like this, I know that if it was me, I would call up the company and tell them firmly but politely that I appreciate the offer that they will replace it with a new optic at some unknown date, but that for me that isn't going to cut it and I would like to be compensated in cash for the faulty optic. I might even accept a stack of rifle mags or spare parts or some other trade good of equivalent value. I know I have run into situation in the past where this approach has worked, as ultimately that is what the company is offering- an exchange of goods to make up for the value of the faulty product. If you were looking for advice, that is what I would offer.

If you were just looking to vent out of frustration, that is totally understandable too, I have been there myself!

Sven

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 8:50:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 8:58:41 AM EDT by 0uTkAsT]
I don't like bitching or writing bad reviews. in fact I can't remember the last time I've done it for another company or product, but not only were my 4th-Gen MSAR and my E4 pieces of crap (broken bolt, broken optics, defective barrel, missing parts, stuck mags, etc) but after Dave left their customer service absolutely went to hell.

It took me TWO MONTHS to get MSAR to replace a broken part I sent them, which they LOST and then tried making it seem like I was trying to pull a fast one on them... I literally just got the part yesterday and I sent my old one in in the middle of July. It took repeated IMs to Rick the web guy, phone calls to Paul at the PA facility, Tony Marfione (the CEO!) in NC, and emails to about four other people including the freakin accountant to finally get my hands on it. The person who finally came through for me was Paul, but only because he happened to "find my old bolt" on the 24th of August and supposedly shipped my new one out that day, two and a half weeks ago, so apparently USPS took it through Magellan's route to the new world. I've honestly received better customer service at Wal-Mart.

I had to have my defective barrel worked on by a gunsmith out of my own pocket because "they don't have any to send me". I'm too afraid to send it back to MSAR anyways because they might "lose" it too.

My last MSAR is still for sale if anyone wants it.

Dealing with them over bad optics is one thing, try having to deal with them when you have two bad rifles like me!
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:31:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 9:42:28 AM EDT by SilentType]
Outkast, you should just copy that post above so the next dozen times you post about your negative experience with MSAR you can save yourself time.

Sell your MSAR rifles and move on. I think you and everyone else will be happier for it. No offense, but I don't think a week has gone by in the last few months where I haven't seen one of your negative posts. Your point has been made and now you're beating a dead horse. No need to wage a one man jihad against MSAR. No need to repeat yourself constantly either. I mean you don't see me constantly posting about my postive experiences with MSAR every time there is a post like this. Either offer something constructive to the OP to help or move on.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:41:42 AM EDT
The optic version is $100 more than the railed. What did everyone expect for $100 difference? I took a chance on mine. It was a blurry piece of crap. I moved on.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:02:30 AM EDT
You know. I really, really wanted an MSAR STG-556 up until about a week ago. I just kept reading poor reviews and people having unresolved issues. I don't want to invest over 1k in a firearm that may or may not work out of the box, optics aside. MSAR has lost a customer until they can get their act together.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:19:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 10:20:59 AM EDT by MadDogDan]
JoeCoastie: I guess you will have to do what is right for you and pass on the MSAR. I really wanted an MSAR E4 and after reading ALL of the posts like this one I came to the conclusion that EVERY manufacturer produces lemons from timeto time, and that the recipients of those lemons will take EVERY opportunity to tell people about it.

I decided there are MANY MORE satisfied customers then there are dissatisfied and that I would spend my hard earned money on an E4. It was the best decision I ever made as mine runs 100% with all ammo types and all five of the different brand AR mags that I have (65 mags in total).

Nuff said,
MadDog
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:32:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
JoeCoastie: I guess you will have to do what is right for you and pass on the MSAR. I really wanted an MSAR E4 and after reading ALL of the posts like this one I came to the conclusion that EVERY manufacturer produces lemons from timeto time, and that the recipients of those lemons will take EVERY opportunity to tell people about it.

I decided there are MANY MORE satisfied customers then there are dissatisfied and that I would spend my hard earned money on an E4. It was the best decision I ever made as mine runs 100% with all ammo types and all five of the different brand AR mags that I have (65 mags in total).

Nuff said,
MadDog

I won't argue with you on that. I was in a class for a company I worked for. They said for every good expericen only one or two people hear about it. For ever bad experience at least 7-10 people hear about it. That's just a given fact in sales, it really is. I know that people have had GREAT experiences with their MSAR's. I have seen a lot who haven't as well. I'm just hesitant to pull the trigger on a gun that will cost me over 1k that may or may not work. In the future though, once MSAR gets back on solid ground, I may purchase one from them, funds permitting. For now though my wants have shifted to more stable companies who have a proven track record with CS.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 1:20:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 1:22:44 PM EDT by 0uTkAsT]
Originally Posted By SilentType:
Outkast, you should just copy that post above so the next dozen times you post about your negative experience with MSAR you can save yourself time.

Sell your MSAR rifles and move on. I think you and everyone else will be happier for it. No offense, but I don't think a week has gone by in the last few months where I haven't seen one of your negative posts. Your point has been made and now you're beating a dead horse. No need to wage a one man jihad against MSAR. No need to repeat yourself constantly either. I mean you don't see me constantly posting about my postive experiences with MSAR every time there is a post like this. Either offer something constructive to the OP to help or move on.


The point of me posting this time was because I shared what I had to go through to get my parts replaced, which is exactly what the original post about. I've posted exactly four times with my experiences, every time relevant to the subject at hand. I haven't started any threads bashing the company or its product, I simply add my feedback where it's pertinent. I'm not a hard individual to please, and if it was a good company with a good product I wouldn't be so upset over the ordeal, but it seems to me that it was a good company that has slipped steadily in the CS department that sells an inherently good product with big QC issues. If you don't like what I write, skip over it. And despite your little comment about repeating yourself, you do exactly that. If I posted the same positive / argumentative feedback repeatedly, you wouldn't have a problem with it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 6:46:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 6:48:58 PM EDT by Keeferno]
Originally Posted By SilentType:
. Your point has been made and now you're beating a dead horse. No need to wage a one man jihad against MSAR. No need to repeat yourself constantly either.

This is the first post of his that I've seen and I'm glad I did see it. I got an A3 back when all of the rumors of their instability were swirling and I was very glad at that time that I went with the A3 (about a year ago when the caliber conversions were "just around the corner"). With the price of the MSAR so low I was close to pulling the trigger on one as well. Seeing now that they are not supporting many who call for service I'm glad I got the info before I bought one. Yes, many people have had good experience for a stretch of time but it sounds like they are currently in a low. Bad time to buy in my opinion.

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 7:08:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keeferno:
Originally Posted By SilentType:
. Your point has been made and now you're beating a dead horse. No need to wage a one man jihad against MSAR. No need to repeat yourself constantly either.

This is the first post of his that I've seen and I'm glad I did see it. I got an A3 back when all of the rumors of their instability were swirling and I was very glad at that time that I went with the A3 (about a year ago when the caliber conversions were "just around the corner"). With the price of the MSAR so low I was close to pulling the trigger on one as well. Seeing now that they are not supporting many who call for service I'm glad I got the info before I bought one. Yes, many people have had good experience for a stretch of time but it sounds like they are currently in a low. Bad time to buy in my opinion.



Who isn't MSAR supporting? The optics issue is something that we were told would be "some time" before it was resolved and so a rail was shipped out to hold people over. If you're looking for a manufacturer that meets a certain quality/price point, it may take some time. They didn't have to do that, but they did.

Has MSAR ever told someone, "Get lost, we're not taking care of you?" Or are people just upset because e-mail might not be answered ASAP or IMs on a third party board aren't answered ASAP?

I'd love it if everything were perfect, but that's not how things are right now and if we want things to get better we need to tone down the vitriol and step back before blasting off with accusations, innuendo, and hearsay. For those who have legitimate first hand complaints, I feel your pain. I have $1100 worth of magazines sitting under someone's desk at MSAR because they're not worth the plastic wrappers they were shipped in.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 7:15:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 7:37:24 PM EDT by SilentType]

Originally Posted By Keeferno:
Originally Posted By SilentType:
. Your point has been made and now you're beating a dead horse. No need to wage a one man jihad against MSAR. No need to repeat yourself constantly either.

This is the first post of his that I've seen and I'm glad I did see it. I got an A3 back when all of the rumors of their instability were swirling and I was very glad at that time that I went with the A3 (about a year ago when the caliber conversions were "just around the corner"). With the price of the MSAR so low I was close to pulling the trigger on one as well. Seeing now that they are not supporting many who call for service I'm glad I got the info before I bought one. Yes, many people have had good experience for a stretch of time but it sounds like they are currently in a low. Bad time to buy in my opinion.


How the hell do you know what kind of service MSAR provides?

You don't even own one.

Your opinion on their customer service is worthless. I don't care what you've read or what you think you don't know jack about what you're talking about.

They're in a "Low." Based on what? Some internet posts? Name me another company that has sold as many bullpup rifles in the last five years. Where were you when Steyr dropped out of the US market with no parts or customer service at all for months? Guess what we people that aren't Johnny "come latelys" to Steyr stuck in there and made it through just fine and Steyr came out stronger and better.

MSAR is trying to move a business and yet carry on their business at the same time. They could have just shut down and said "see ya in a few months," but they haven't. They also haven't maintained the full level of production they had in 2008, because that would have been suicide when the assault rifle market dropped like a rock in 2009. MSAR was smart and started making knives again after not making any knives for years, but that reduced what they could crank out for parts and rifles. They've taken steps to make sure they're there for us in the long run and preserve themselves for the long run.
Haven't seen one SINGLE person get screwed by MSAR. Not one. The worst complaints here are a few folks that have had to wait a long time, but in the end everyone has been taken care of one way or another the best possible way MSAR could. Hell, I've waited months and months before for parts to come in through import on rifles. MSAR is doing pretty damn well in my book and I know what I'm talking about, because I a) own one, and b) have been following this company since they were posting photos of their parts and new CNC machines.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 7:43:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 7:51:01 PM EDT by SilentType]
Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread. Dieter is a good guy and he wants his optic. I so get that. Crap thing is that MSAR never made the optics and doesn't order them anymore so unless they've got some in reserve, which they probably don't since the 1.5x optics were not working out, they're stuck dealing with the company. Ask them for parts or mags or something they can control. If you want sell those on the E&E when you get them and buy a primary arms red dot or something.

I honestly don't think you want MSAR ordering optics from the same company that was supplying them defective optics again. I mean MSAR is well rid of them in my opinion.



Link Posted: 9/12/2010 7:48:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 7:51:36 PM EDT by SilentType]

Originally Posted By JoeCoastie:
You know. I really, really wanted an MSAR STG-556 up until about a week ago. I just kept reading poor reviews and people having unresolved issues. I don't want to invest over 1k in a firearm that may or may not work out of the box, optics aside. MSAR has lost a customer until they can get their act together.


Look at all the E4 owners that had to have the magazine fix. MSAR has been taking care of those folks.

Once and awhile you get some folks who have some unique problems and those can take time. MSAR passed the 10K sold mark last year. That's a lot of folks most of whom are pretty happy or this whole forum would be nothing, but MSAR complaints.

Never seen ONE person say MSAR told them they wouldn't honor a warranty or see one person say MSAR didn't work with them to resolve an issue. Not one.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 2:45:16 AM EDT
He may be gone...I was going to trade one of my RFBs to him for an E4 but never heard back from him about it.....

Just stopped getting messages all together.....
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 3:44:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fighter443:
He may be gone...I was going to trade one of my RFBs to him for an E4 but never heard back from him about it.....

Just stopped getting messages all together.....


He IS gone. You haven't been here in awhile, have you?
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 4:20:34 AM EDT
MSAR is trying to move a business and yet carry on their business at the same time. They could have just shut down and said "see ya in a few months," but they haven't. They also haven't maintained the full level of production they had in 2008, because that would have been suicide when the assault rifle market dropped like a rock in 2009. MSAR was smart and started making knives again after not making any knives for years, but that reduced what they could crank out for parts and rifles. They've taken steps to make sure they're there for us in the long run and preserve themselves for the long run.
I have never seen another gun manufacturer that has had to have people make excuses for the companies poor qc as MSAR. People don't want excuses they want a working product.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 4:41:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dieter122:
Bought a stg556 package for 1600 bucks back last december through ratworx....I think it was the 7th. Rifle came in and I couldn't zero the optic. Tried on 3 different range trips. I spoke to msar dave who said they knew a bunch of the optics were crap and broke as they had a lot of returns. He sent out a rail for me after about 2 weeks. Got the rail but nothing to mount on it. So now I've got a gun that's been sitting and getting zero use since I got it aside from trying to zero a busted 250 dollar optic that came with it. I contacted msar again and asked thr status of the new optics being made and all I got was "dave is no longer with us". No mention of new optics. I write back again asking. They reply saying there is no new news about new ones being produced and distributed to people who got boned over with junk that shoots 4ft low and won't zero. Its coming up on a year and I am pretty sure its been ample time to get something arranged if they gave an honest effort. Instead since that last email to them which I simply stated that I've waited a long time and plenty long to get a replacement....they have ignored my most recent message. Now I've got a 1600 dollar gun collecting dust and a busted 250 dollar optic they slapped together. I wanted a stg556 as it was very close to an aug clone. I didn't want a railed gun and have to buy a seperate optic. If I knew this was going to happen I would of passed alltogether. Is MSAR going to make good and make new optics or are we all $hit out of luck? A year is more than enough time. No one has that kind of patience for things to be made right and to be given good CS. Sorry no paragraphs as I wrote this from my cell


Welcome to the club..
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:38:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 6:45:40 AM EDT by Keeferno]
Originally Posted By SilentType:

Originally Posted By Keeferno:
Originally Posted By SilentType:
. Your point has been made and now you're beating a dead horse. No need to wage a one man jihad against MSAR. No need to repeat yourself constantly either.

This is the first post of his that I've seen and I'm glad I did see it. I got an A3 back when all of the rumors of their instability were swirling and I was very glad at that time that I went with the A3 (about a year ago when the caliber conversions were "just around the corner"). With the price of the MSAR so low I was close to pulling the trigger on one as well. Seeing now that they are not supporting many who call for service I'm glad I got the info before I bought one. Yes, many people have had good experience for a stretch of time but it sounds like they are currently in a low. Bad time to buy in my opinion.


How the hell do you know what kind of service MSAR provides?

You don't even own one.

Your opinion on their customer service is worthless. I don't care what you've read or what you think you don't know jack about what you're talking about.

They're in a "Low." Based on what? Some internet posts? Name me another company that has sold as many bullpup rifles in the last five years. Where were you when Steyr dropped out of the US market with no parts or customer service at all for months? Guess what we people that aren't Johnny "come latelys" to Steyr stuck in there and made it through just fine and Steyr came out stronger and better.

MSAR is trying to move a business and yet carry on their business at the same time. They could have just shut down and said "see ya in a few months," but they haven't. They also haven't maintained the full level of production they had in 2008, because that would have been suicide when the assault rifle market dropped like a rock in 2009. MSAR was smart and started making knives again after not making any knives for years, but that reduced what they could crank out for parts and rifles. They've taken steps to make sure they're there for us in the long run and preserve themselves for the long run.
Haven't seen one SINGLE person get screwed by MSAR. Not one. The worst complaints here are a few folks that have had to wait a long time, but in the end everyone has been taken care of one way or another the best possible way MSAR could. Hell, I've waited months and months before for parts to come in through import on rifles. MSAR is doing pretty damn well in my book and I know what I'm talking about, because I a) own one, and b) have been following this company since they were posting photos of their parts and new CNC machines.


Holy crap. I was posting that someone who you felt the need to tell to stop posting was indeed valuable in my purchasing decision. Maybe if you spent more time shooting or working than ripping on others that were not in your fan club your input might be of value. I can't imagine how I would get a bad image of them with you commenting on anyone's negetive or percieved negative comment about them. Hike them up and let everyone have/ their say. Your post has been reported.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:43:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By joedirt1977:
Originally Posted By fighter443:
He may be gone...I was going to trade one of my RFBs to him for an E4 but never heard back from him about it.....

Just stopped getting messages all together.....


He IS gone. You haven't been here in awhile, have you?


Well I stopped getting emails..But didn't even say no thanks or anything....
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:02:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:02:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 7:02:40 AM EDT by HardShell]
See above...
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