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Posted: 9/2/2010 9:36:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2010 9:39:45 AM EDT by CCCCanuck]
Anyone else angry about this?

I called when the sale was still listed on Ratworx' site in the spring, and they refused to honor the sale price that was still listed on their website for backorders. So, I wait 2 months, finally get my rifle at full price, along with a lot of other people, and now they drop the price again via a "rebate". So what I get out of it is that they only need to sell these for $1300 to make a profit, and kind of jacked all the people during the shortage. I know, its capitalism, but I'm still not happy about it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 9:50:42 AM EDT
While I agree that they should honor the site if it says "Sale", they can kinda have a sale whenever they want. Things go on sale from time to time, if you miss out, you miss out.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 9:54:42 AM EDT
I am in the same boat.. Give me the t-shirt at least..
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 9:59:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2010 10:04:55 AM EDT by CCCCanuck]
Yeah, a t-shirt would probably make it a little better at least. I guess I just feel that if they can put these rifles on sale for 2/3 of the year for $200 off, I think they should be selling them for that price all the time.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:01:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2010 10:05:18 AM EDT by Onslaught]
Spring? Wasn't the last Ratworx sale over in like February? Regardless of when it was, it did exactly what it was designed to do... increase sales. Get more product out there for people to see, talk about on the internet, etc. and then all those guys who didn't buy during the sale still spend the cash at full price because they're sorry the missed the sale. Besides, wasn't the Ratworx "Sale Price" around $1499? If so, that's not much less than current prices BEFORE the rebate.

Speaking of rebates - those typically come from the factory. More likely this time that MSAR is helping Ratworx move inventory by giving back a portion of THEIR profit during what I understand to be a typically slow time of the year for gun sales.

I was kinda toying with the idea of selling one of my two E4's because of how much $$$ I have invested in both of them and I don't really NEED 2, but now I'd have to knock $200 off my selling price. Am I angry? Nope.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:49:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2010 10:58:37 AM EDT by Dawg180]
You can be unhappy about it, but really, what is there to be angry about? Prices of guns go up and down all the time due to market forces and Ratworx is a business. To say that they should sell the rifles at a certain price all the time is, well, kind of foolish- they have liquidity, assets, and all sorts of numbers that they need to work to stay in business and setting the pricing so they can do that is their right.

If you really want to get the rifles cheaper you could simply become an MSAR approved dealer by putting cash on the barrel head to purchase the minimum order of rifles to do so.

I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 11:20:48 AM EDT
Did you get the STG or the E4???
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 11:23:39 AM EDT
Its a dangerous game havng sales on and off. Just like the automotive industry, we get trained to wait patiently for the next sale which will degrade product sales when there is no discount being offered. If they set one fair price, the product would have less ebb and flow. But that's not my call to make. It can also cause hard feelings with those who missed out. A $900 gun is worth just that. If they can sell it for less then it's not worth $900 and people feel burned. It dawned on me that when Buds was able to clearance guns at $1050 or even $950, why would I pony up and pay $1,500 today. It's not like I need in for a special event. I can wait.

Besides, Two STG rifles are enough....for some people.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 11:42:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.



We are with you on this brother! We bought 3 STG's at that price! Yea, it gets me from time to time but I don't regret it one bit. No pity parties here either.

Link Posted: 9/2/2010 11:56:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Greg3:
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.



We are with you on this brother! We bought 3 STG's at that price! Yea, it gets me from time to time but I don't regret it one bit. No pity parties here either.



I paid that for My Gen III when they were released.

Cry me a river. Nobody told me that MSAR would release 3 new generational changes within 2 years...kiling the rifle's resale value. Shot great, trigger sucked. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten ~$1100 for it a year ago. Last heard that dealer cost on the GenIIIs was just over $500.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 12:51:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By Greg3:
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.



We are with you on this brother! We bought 3 STG's at that price! Yea, it gets me from time to time but I don't regret it one bit. No pity parties here either.



I paid that for My Gen III when they were released.

Cry me a river. Nobody told me that MSAR would release 3 new generational changes within 2 years...kiling the rifle's resale value. Shot great, trigger sucked. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten ~$1100 for it a year ago. Last heard that dealer cost on the GenIIIs was just over $500.



Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By Greg3:
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.



We are with you on this brother! We bought 3 STG's at that price! Yea, it gets me from time to time but I don't regret it one bit. No pity parties here either.



I paid that for My Gen III when they were released.

Cry me a river. Nobody told me that MSAR would release 3 new generational changes within 2 years...kiling the rifle's resale value. Shot great, trigger sucked. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten ~$1100 for it a year ago. Last heard that dealer cost on the GenIIIs was just over $500.



Dawg and I are not crying at all that's for sure. I'm not sure what Gen Dawg's is. Ours were (2) Gen1 and (1) Gen2 @$1,600 per unit. Hell, we had no idea at the time there was a different Gen in the 3 we got until I got home and really looked at them hard.

Yea, at times I think I could have *almost* got 2 for the price of one now. But, I am still VERY happy to have them and the cost is really no big deal now. No tears here.

As for the dealer cost. My dealer (a friend) did have the MSAR line in his store a few years ago(I guess as a try and buy) and ended up selling all of the STG's he had. Then he called MSAR to become a dealer for them and MSAR told him that to do so they had to buy $20,000 worth of Microtech knives to get the rifles! Now, I though that was a bit over kill but I have no reason to think my friend lied to me about that. So I can see the dealer cost of the rifles being low as for having to carry a large stock of their knifes. Yes their knives rock! But Daumn

My friend did not agree to that and started to carry the Steyr AUG A3's. Can't say I don't blame him.


Link Posted: 9/2/2010 1:05:22 PM EDT
Brother you're complaining in the WRONG place.

I paid $1,750.00 to get my STG556 home two years ago. Do I complain? No. That's life.

People who bought flat screen tvs at some point see others buy those same flat screen tvs for a lower price.


Link Posted: 9/2/2010 1:39:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SilentType:
Brother you're complaining in the WRONG place.

I paid $1,750.00 to get my STG556 home two years ago. Do I complain? No. That's life.

People who bought flat screen tvs at some point see others buy those same flat screen tvs for a lower price.




I knew the point would come up about the $1800 STG's, and remembering that doesn't make me feel so bad!
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 2:26:51 PM EDT
I wish I could find a Gen 3 locally for a decent price.............I would get one

Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By Greg3:
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.



We are with you on this brother! We bought 3 STG's at that price! Yea, it gets me from time to time but I don't regret it one bit. No pity parties here either.



I paid that for My Gen III when they were released.

Cry me a river. Nobody told me that MSAR would release 3 new generational changes within 2 years...kiling the rifle's resale value. Shot great, trigger sucked. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten ~$1100 for it a year ago. Last heard that dealer cost on the GenIIIs was just over $500.


Link Posted: 9/2/2010 2:58:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyclone:
I wish I could find a Gen 3 locally for a decent price.............I would get one

Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By Greg3:
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I paid $1670 for my STG three years ago, so you might say that 'pity' is in short supply in this instance.



We are with you on this brother! We bought 3 STG's at that price! Yea, it gets me from time to time but I don't regret it one bit. No pity parties here either.



I paid that for My Gen III when they were released.

Cry me a river. Nobody told me that MSAR would release 3 new generational changes within 2 years...kiling the rifle's resale value. Shot great, trigger sucked. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten ~$1100 for it a year ago. Last heard that dealer cost on the GenIIIs was just over $500.




They're fine rifles. You're just not going to get much for them on the used market.

I bet if you looked around you could find one for $800-$900.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 11:02:33 PM EDT
Its like buying a ACR on day 1 for 5k and then complaining that they are now 1800
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 12:04:24 AM EDT
I think this is more MSAR than Ratworx. It was not just customers who got bit. I know distributers were hit hard with this deal as well. Some had bought bunches of the rifles and then got stuck with them as new generations were brought out. I know one for certain who was bit so hard that they dropped MSAR.


Link Posted: 9/3/2010 3:56:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By snaggletooth1925:
Its like buying a ACR on day 1 for 5k and then complaining that they are now 1800


Not exactly.

I't like buying an ACR within the 1st year and then having Bushmaster release ACR 2, ACR 3, and ACR 4 within the next year and a half; each successive ACR including fairly substantial improvements.

Although your ACR 1 shoots fine, the value fell to half of it's purchase price within the 1st year of ownership.

Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:05:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By snaggletooth1925:
Its like buying a ACR on day 1 for 5k and then complaining that they are now 1800


Not exactly.

I't like buying an ACR within the 1st year and then having Bushmaster release ACR 2, ACR 3, and ACR 4 within the next year and a half; each successive ACR including fairly substantial improvements.

Although your ACR 1 shoots fine, the value fell to half of it's purchase price within the 1st year of ownership.



And? Believe it or not, there are actually alot of folks who buy guns and KEEP them. Not everyone buys guns looking down the line at what they can sell it for later. I know some do, and that's fine. But it's silly to get upset about a company doing "product improvement" that will affect your resale value.

Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:16:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2010 4:19:04 AM EDT by drcoffee]
In fairness to MSAR. They worked quickly to make positive changes to their new product. I would think that that was no small cost to them to keep changing thier molds and machines. As a buyer you bought the gun to use it and YOU determined that the price was right at the time you bought it. We all weigh the risk benefit analysis in our heads when we spend money. I paid $2100 for an unknown product that came with a case I'll never use and a knife that almost removed my finger while resheathing it. LOL I wouldn't give up my LTD Ed for anything. It's not fair to complain that you paid too much after the fact. At the time you must have thought it was fairly priced or you would not have paid it. Knowing what you know now, just wait for the next liquidation sale

As a side note, customer service aint what it used to be. I emailed Paul Thomas on Tuesday and still no response. We miss you Dave

Link Posted: 9/3/2010 5:26:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drcoffee:
In fairness to MSAR. They worked quickly to make positive changes to their new product. I would think that that was no small cost to them to keep changing thier molds and machines. As a buyer you bought the gun to use it and YOU determined that the price was right at the time you bought it. We all weigh the risk benefit analysis in our heads when we spend money. I paid $2100 for an unknown product that came with a case I'll never use and a knife that almost removed my finger while resheathing it. LOL I wouldn't give up my LTD Ed for anything. It's not fair to complain that you paid too much after the fact. At the time you must have thought it was fairly priced or you would not have paid it. Knowing what you know now, just wait for the next liquidation sale

As a side note, customer service aint what it used to be. I emailed Paul Thomas on Tuesday and still no response. We miss you Dave



I've found the only sure way is to call. I've sent the new "web/CS" guy a couple e-mails and never heard back, left a voice mail with their accounting person and never heard back...I want to believe in MSAR, but they really need to get things together.

Since it's been a month, I wonder where the new CS bodies are...
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 6:32:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By joedirt1977:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By snaggletooth1925:
Its like buying a ACR on day 1 for 5k and then complaining that they are now 1800


Not exactly.

I't like buying an ACR within the 1st year and then having Bushmaster release ACR 2, ACR 3, and ACR 4 within the next year and a half; each successive ACR including fairly substantial improvements.

Although your ACR 1 shoots fine, the value fell to half of it's purchase price within the 1st year of ownership.



And? Believe it or not, there are actually alot of folks who buy guns and KEEP them. Not everyone buys guns looking down the line at what they can sell it for later. I know some do, and that's fine. But it's silly to get upset about a company doing "product improvement" that will affect your resale value.




I'm not really upset. Just a little suspicious. I genuinely liked my Gen III. As I've stated numerous times, it was more accurate than it should have been, but I had problems with light primer strikes on mil-primers and the trigger sucked hard (which is not a bash on MSAR, but a known design issue with bullpups).

The "product improvements" occurred over what? 14-18 months? We had GenIV, and then almost immediately E4 to be followed by STG.

I think it's very slick marketing. Hook 'em with the current gen and keep 'em coming with each successive "improved" generation. Why not incorporate all improvements over ~16 months into one rifle?


I didn't buy the rifle for resale. I don't buy firearms for resale, but I would prefer for them to not lose 40% of their market value in a year.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 6:36:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drcoffee:
In fairness to MSAR. They worked quickly to make positive changes to their new product. I would think that that was no small cost to them to keep changing thier molds and machines. As a buyer you bought the gun to use it and YOU determined that the price was right at the time you bought it. We all weigh the risk benefit analysis in our heads when we spend money. I paid $2100 for an unknown product that came with a case I'll never use and a knife that almost removed my finger while resheathing it. LOL I wouldn't give up my LTD Ed for anything. It's not fair to complain that you paid too much after the fact. At the time you must have thought it was fairly priced or you would not have paid it. Knowing what you know now, just wait for the next liquidation sale

As a side note, customer service aint what it used to be. I emailed Paul Thomas on Tuesday and still no response. We miss you Dave



I absolutely agree. Product improvements are very welcome at the rob78 household. But why not incorporate all of the small improvements made in a short period into one rifle? Instead of releasing each small improvement as a new Generation rifle?


Ah, that's why


Again, I have no problems with a company making money. Especially a company like MSAR making a good product.

I just don't like being played for a sucker.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 7:29:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2010 9:06:59 AM EDT by farmdog]
In May of 09' I paid $1725.00 for my Gen 3 STG and the same for my SIG 556 classic. I bought them both at the same time from the same dealer. When I bought them I was satisfied with paying that amount and felt lucky to find both firearms. Now seeing what both are selling for does not bother me. At the time I made my purchases with the knowledge I had and I believe I made a good decision. I am still just as happy to own both today.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 7:38:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2010 10:45:25 AM EDT by MadDogDan]
farmdog: You made an excellent decision because you got over a year of use out of your MSAR and SIG up to this point. If people want to bitch about a distributor or even a manufacturer offering "blow-out" prices to move inventory to make room for new or improved models coming out or even just to boost sales in a down market.......................then they shouldn't buy a damn thing as there will always be a better deal months down the road. Need a new Computer? Don't buy it now because next year today's model will be drastically reduced. Need a new Flat Screen TV? Don't buy it now because next year you will be able to get more for much less. Buy a new car and if the auto maker offers a $5,000 rebate a month after you purchased your new auto, try and get that rebate out of them and see what they say. They will tell you to pound sand. That is the nature of business. And don't think the distributor or dealer or even manufacturer is marking that gun way up. Businesses sell at cost all the time to clear out inventory. All of the gun shops that I have known (and that is quite a few) only make about $75 to $200 profit per gun sale. They make most of their money on ammo and all the crap people buy to put on their purchase. Ratworx is probably not much different.

Just my .02
MadDog
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 8:41:20 AM EDT
I agree, I could be unhappy I paid $1670 for my rifle, but at that time the economy and gun sales were booming, that was a steal of a price, and I got two years use out of it before the prices dropped to the levels we see now. I would rather have paid that and gotten two yeasrs use out of it than sit around hoping the price would drop- all part of being a consumer in a fluid economy!

Link Posted: 9/3/2010 6:48:31 PM EDT
<snip>
Not exactly.

I't like buying an ACR within the 1st year and then having Bushmaster release ACR 2, ACR 3, and ACR 4 within the next year and a half; each successive ACR including fairly substantial improvements.

Although your ACR 1 shoots fine, the value fell to half of it's purchase price within the 1st year of ownership.



SIG has been known to do that with their 55x rifles as well.

Link Posted: 9/4/2010 6:38:09 AM EDT
ya it sucks to half of your investment the first year. I did on my STG, but I didn't buy it to resell.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 4:57:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2010 4:59:34 PM EDT by TURRICAN]
Originally Posted By kfeltenberger:
Originally Posted By drcoffee:
In fairness to MSAR. They worked quickly to make positive changes to their new product. I would think that that was no small cost to them to keep changing thier molds and machines. As a buyer you bought the gun to use it and YOU determined that the price was right at the time you bought it. We all weigh the risk benefit analysis in our heads when we spend money. I paid $2100 for an unknown product that came with a case I'll never use and a knife that almost removed my finger while resheathing it. LOL I wouldn't give up my LTD Ed for anything. It's not fair to complain that you paid too much after the fact. At the time you must have thought it was fairly priced or you would not have paid it. Knowing what you know now, just wait for the next liquidation sale

As a side note, customer service aint what it used to be. I emailed Paul Thomas on Tuesday and still no response. We miss you Dave



I've found the only sure way is to call. I've sent the new "web/CS" guy a couple e-mails and never heard back, left a voice mail with their accounting person and never heard back...I want to believe in MSAR, but they really need to get things together.

Since it's been a month, I wonder where the new CS bodies are...


Hey just call them or send an email it isnt rocket science. Isnt that what you told me in another thread?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:53:50 AM EDT
If you all paid too much, you can always sell what you have and replace it with a lower cost version.

When you pay top dollar for something, I call it a pleasure tax. I did it with my RFB and I have no regrets. I've been shooting mine since I got it while everyone else is speculating when the price will come down to where they'll buy one. Screw that...I'll pay the pleasure tax and enjoy it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:15:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Surly:
If you all paid too much, you can always sell what you have and replace it with a lower cost version.

When you pay top dollar for something, I call it a pleasure tax. I did it with my RFB and I have no regrets. I've been shooting mine since I got it while everyone else is speculating when the price will come down to where they'll buy one. Screw that...I'll pay the pleasure tax and enjoy it.



Pleasure Tax...well put, i'll have to remember that. That is probably the best way I have heard it put.

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:28:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 7:28:43 AM EDT by Dawg180]
Originally Posted By Surly:
If you all paid too much, you can always sell what you have and replace it with a lower cost version.

When you pay top dollar for something, I call it a pleasure tax. I did it with my RFB and I have no regrets. I've been shooting mine since I got it while everyone else is speculating when the price will come down to where they'll buy one. Screw that...I'll pay the pleasure tax and enjoy it.


Pleasure Tax, isn't that the same thing you pay a when you take a fine girl out for a lobster dinner?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:29:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
Originally Posted By Surly:
If you all paid too much, you can always sell what you have and replace it with a lower cost version.

When you pay top dollar for something, I call it a pleasure tax. I did it with my RFB and I have no regrets. I've been shooting mine since I got it while everyone else is speculating when the price will come down to where they'll buy one. Screw that...I'll pay the pleasure tax and enjoy it.


Pleasure Tax, isn't that the same thing you pay a when you take a fine girl out for a lobster dinner?


I would say that is more akin to gambling myself.

As was said before the buyer sets the price of what he will pay. A good deal is defined by the buyer and the seller has his own definition of a good deal.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 10:47:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I think this is more MSAR than Ratworx. It was not just customers who got bit. I know distributers were hit hard with this deal as well. Some had bought bunches of the rifles and then got stuck with them as new generations were brought out. I know one for certain who was bit so hard that they dropped MSAR.



I've had dealers tell me similar things.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:59:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TURRICAN:
Originally Posted By kfeltenberger:
Originally Posted By drcoffee:
In fairness to MSAR. They worked quickly to make positive changes to their new product. I would think that that was no small cost to them to keep changing thier molds and machines. As a buyer you bought the gun to use it and YOU determined that the price was right at the time you bought it. We all weigh the risk benefit analysis in our heads when we spend money. I paid $2100 for an unknown product that came with a case I'll never use and a knife that almost removed my finger while resheathing it. LOL I wouldn't give up my LTD Ed for anything. It's not fair to complain that you paid too much after the fact. At the time you must have thought it was fairly priced or you would not have paid it. Knowing what you know now, just wait for the next liquidation sale

As a side note, customer service aint what it used to be. I emailed Paul Thomas on Tuesday and still no response. We miss you Dave



I've found the only sure way is to call. I've sent the new "web/CS" guy a couple e-mails and never heard back, left a voice mail with their accounting person and never heard back...I want to believe in MSAR, but they really need to get things together.

Since it's been a month, I wonder where the new CS bodies are...


Hey just call them or send an email it isnt rocket science. Isnt that what you told me in another thread?


My issues have been resolved. I was just posting this for full disclosure's sake. I called Paul and things were resolved.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:16:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neoinarien:

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I think this is more MSAR than Ratworx. It was not just customers who got bit. I know distributers were hit hard with this deal as well. Some had bought bunches of the rifles and then got stuck with them as new generations were brought out. I know one for certain who was bit so hard that they dropped MSAR.



I've had dealers tell me similar things.

I assume that MSAR themselves got bit in the process as well so it seems that everyone got bit except for those who didn't buy at first. Then again, I am not buying now because I am kind of scared to.

I have no bullpups right now. I want one which is why I keep finding myself in here so i don't really have a dog in the fight or bone to pick. I also watched MSARDave's handling of CS issues as he seemed to have a good rep and I hoped I could learn from him. This is just for clarification as I don't want to seem like I am bashing MSAR, just stating what my observations are.

I had an RFB come through the shop and I thought that would be enough to curb the bullpup urges but it made my wanting even worse.
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