Which one and why?
Sorry, Poll should be MSAR

Both!

ETA: I have an STG and love it. I don't own an AR or have AR mags to the STG was the winner for me. The extra cost of the E4 did not give enough benefits to justify the cost. Not only that, but all of the extra rails don't do anything for me and the too-large bolt hold-open is a negative. I like the E4 rail and have one on my STG.
There's no perfect rifle as they all have their pros and cons. Of what you've proposed, I'd go with the Steyr w/ NATO stock. In fact, if the 6.8 kits ever come out, I'll use the NATO stock with my STG.
Another option is a 20" STG with a NATO stock. Cut the barrel to your length and thread preference and enjoy the large number of accessories.
Either way, good luck.

Please say why when you vote. I'm thinking about an AUG for the primary reason of getting a non-NFA rifle as short as my 10.5 bbl SBR. So please post your reasons. By the way, I'm  willing to wait for MSAR to complete their move if that's relevant. I was leaning to Steyr but they seem a bit confused on 922 compliance.

I have 1 E4 and 1 STG I converted to an E4 stock.  Both are great rifles for less money than the Steyr.

I keep hearing that the MSAR is less expensive, but I priced both and thety are very close in price. Within $150

One thing that concerned me was resale value. Just the name alone would make the Steyr easier to sell if you had to. At least that is my take on it.

At this point I would go with the Steyr hands down, because I have... Er, had... Two MSARs that were plagued with issues, and the customer service I've received post-Dave has left a lot to be desired.

I have to agree, go for the Steyr.  While it actually lacks a lot of features you would get with the MSAR, right now I would be worried about the future of MSAR.

Thanks to Pete Athens, genuine Steyr AUG parts have been available for quite a while before MSAR, TPD, or Steyr Arms, Inc (USA front for Steyr in Austria) ever thought of bringing the rifle back to the states.

However, I would think that you could find an MSAR E4 *much* cheaper than a AUG A3 SA w/NATO stock.  If you're paying more than $1300 or so for the MSAR, you're paying too much.

At the prices I see now, I would get the MSAR and stock up on small parts.

(ETA: If you can find a AUG A3 SA w/NATO stock for $1450, PM me the info!  I'll have one...)

I picked the Steyr. I have a TPD AXR which is a pretty close cousin, and I'm tickled with it to say the least. I guess technically though, I don't have either and probably shouldn't have voted. But I enjoy sharing my opinion...

Problem with the AUG A3 and its NATO stock is that you're basically getting an AUG A3 with an older NATO stock designed for the A1 and A2. You lose your bolt release with the NATO AUG A3 that you would have with your normal AUG A3.



That's a loss of a feature so that you can use STANAG magazines, which IMHO are not all that great and inferior to the AUG magazine.



If you go AUG A3 get the standard AUG A3.

Sorry, but that's a bullshit statement trying to persuade someone to purchase a rifle based on fear.



People have been saying that MSAR is going to go out of business since they started selling the STG556 in 2007. So far they're still in business.



To the OP:



There are some key differences in the two designs. The E4 has a fully flutted barrel and unlike the AUG A3 you're there are 1/2x28mm threaded barrels available. Whereas with the AUG A3 you're strictly pinned to 13x1 thread barrels. The E4 has a 1/8 twist whereas the the AUG A3 has a 1/9.  Also take a look at the various rail mounting options of the E4 and notice that this allows for a lot more flexibility in using various slings than the AUG A3 can use.  Plus, the E4 has a fully flutted barrel, which means more surface area for better cooling of the barrel and an added receiver vent on the right side for improved ventilation.  The side accessory rail also is further below the receiver vents on the E4 than the accessory rail on the AUG A3. The side accessory rail on the E4 can also be changed to various sizes, which comes in handy if you want to use a light set-up (see Tomac's STG rifles).  Also the bolt release of the E4 is an improved ergonomic design over the older STG 556 and AUG as it is more incorporated into the stock.  



The E4s have had two issues. The first was with the bolt release and the second was with stuck magazines. Both issues have been remedied, but some people are very upset that they had to deal with those issues at all.  

That may be the best advice so far. I'm not that hung up on STANAG mags. Plus there are the  42 rounders in the standard AUG.

Are there any advantages of the MSAR over the standard Steyr A3?

Price is not equal. I believe last I checked the A3 was $1900 from PJ and the E4 was $1500 from Ratworx.

This is just my opinion:
A3 - Pros: the rail lenght, clean lines and "looks" better, resell (maybe). Cons: 1:9 twist only, 16" barrel only, with NATO stock there's no left handed bolt (if you care), price, 922r

E4 - Pros: price, left handed option, more flexable mounting points, 1:8 twist barrel, 16" and 20" barrels with other options available, 100% US made, way more of them out there and there's aftermarket support developing. Cons: too many mounting points for rails, company seems to not have the capacity to do all they want.

Too many dooms day people on the customer service issue with MSAR. It seems warranty issues are being addressed in a timely manner still with the exception of the XM17 mags. I think it's lost it's personal touch since Dave has left and people got spoiled. Basically you'd get the same level warranty work with Sabre.

ETA: For the spare parts people, take the $400 difference and buy a complete bolt, gas piston w/ sring, and trigger pack. Then your ahead of the Styre peeps in spare parts. What if MSAR goes out of buisness? Well, what if Styre ditches the US A3? or Sabre says FU to Styre? or Styre is hit with some more restrictions b/c of it's other foreign military customers? I mean do you really want to play the "what if" game?

If you're not hung up on AR mags get the STG. The mags are thick and tough and the bolt release is better IMHO. Barrel threading costs a bit but is not enough to match to cost difference between the STG and AUG A3. There are far more accessories available for the MSAR as well.

Well, there are some advantages and disadvantages to each design.



Some folks have reported that the AUG A3 will not accept MSAR polymer STG556 magazines. That's unfortunate because hands down the MSAR STG556 magazine is a better magazine. It uses a much more advanced polymer that has improved tensile strength and are chemical resistant.  In short, the STG556 magazines are lighter, stronger, and harder to melt than the Steyr magazines.



I like that my STG556 has the fully flutted barrel and a 1/8 twist.  Neither the STG, E4, or AUG A3 barrels are cold hammer forged unfortunately.  The STG and E4 are buttoned rifled. There are however some very rare FNH cold hammer forged 1/7 twist barrels out there for the STG556.  Both the STG556 and the AUG A3 use 13x1 threading for the flash suppressors or breaks so that's a PITA with both rifles frankly.  Granted some companies make flash suppressors for 13x1 and Ratworx apparently will rethread 1/2x28 flash suppressors for 13x1, but wouldn't be nice if you didn't have to mess around and could just slap on a 1/2x28?  I like that the barrel of the STG556 is fully flutted, it's more surface area and that means more distribution of heat and better cooling, which should lead to a longer barrel life.  The extra receiver vent is also a nice touch.  You have to remember that these additions to the STG556 designs didn't come out of nowhere, but the product of years of experience with the A1 and A2.  



The things I like the AUG A3 is that right off the bat compared to the STG556 (not true with the E4) is that you get a lower height optic rail that makes it easier to cowitness BUIS with primary optic.  However, you can purchase multiple after market rails for your STG556 that will do the same thing.  I don't like the side rail of the AUG A3. I view it as sort of haphazardly slapped on the side of the AUG A3 receiver. You can't change the side accessory rail on the A3 and if you mount anything there it's going to run by up by your receiver vents where heat is venting. Plus you'll have to run a cord for the light or laser you mount to use it and then comes the joy of where to put the thing.  If you do get an AUG A3 you should look into the Steyr or the 2020 VFG rail replacement and just forget about that side accessory rail.



One of the things I like about the AUG A3 is the capture pin though with the buttplate.  I like that the you don't have to remove the whole pin to take off the buttplate..that's a nice feature for being to access stuff in your storage compartment.  The STG though has a better texture to the buttplate. The STG also IMHO has better textured stock and the E4 really has aggressive texturing and I like that, but YMMV.

Very well thought out post.  I agree with everything, except what I highlighted in red.  Where?  I'd like to have 2 or 3 spare bolts, no idea where to buy one.  ETA:  sorry didn't realize the 6 point font was that huge.  I wasn't trying to be an ass.  Also thought I did it in red.
ETA:  SilentType, Dave stated in another thread, can't remember which, that only one FNH barrel ever left the factory.

I bought the msar e4 because I liked the rails and the 14.5'' barrel and the fancy knife that came with it not to mention it shoots like dream.

AZ_Larry

You should consult with best bud in two days

This subforum is heavily biased towards MSAR, yet the A3 still comes out ahead thus far.

Dude, PM me. Mainly because I want to know who the he'll you are!

im sent

IM sent back

Doesn't the NATO stock only have one transfer bar on the trigger as apposed to the two bars in every other stock? I remember reading something about that and how it makes for a completely atrocious trigger when i was looking to put one on my STG.



Anyone confirm or deny?

I don't know about the NATO stock but the E4 stock has a single transfer bar due to using AR mags as opposed to the STG's twin transfer bars.
Tomac

Well i guess that rules out the 1 bar=bad trigger theory.





 

I have a NATO stock on my AXR. It does have only one transfer bar, but I don't think the trigger is atrocious. I haven't shot an MSAR, so I can't directly compare to them. But, I've owned AR's, AK's, HK clones, AR180's, and even a Bushmaster M17S bullpup and it compares favorably to most of them (AR's generally have nice triggers).

joedirt:  If you really are looking for a spare right hand MSAR bolt I have one for sale.  It is the newer hard chromed model with the redesigned extractor.

Send me an IM for more details,
MadDog

So do they still have FNH barrels at MSAR?  I would REALLY like to get one and have been kicking myself for not buying one back when Dave brought up  that they were selling them.



Be so cool to have an FNH cold hammer forged 1/7 twist 1/2x28mm thread barrel. Be real nice if MSAR could maybe work out a deal to purchase more of those barrels in limited number for those interested in them.  

i believe MSAR would have to send out entire rifles minus barrel and have FNH put the barrels in and call it a repair, then ship them back to the USA.

otherwise you can't import em right?

I don't think they were imported to begin with. FNH has a U.S. factory. That's where they build some of our military's firearms.

FN USA has been building M16A2 rifles for our government for quite some time.  I can't remember where the U.S. factory is.  

As to the poll.  I have noticed that there sure are a lot of MSAR rifles being sold on the EE.  It seems that there is a different E-4 or STG for sale every week.  The A3 AUG however is not very common to the EE.  That might just be because there are a lot of MSAR rifles being sold and not so many AUG A3s but I know I tend to keep the rifles that I like and sale the ones that fall short in my view.  I only have a STG with a spare E-4 stock so I can't comment on the AUG but I sure would like to buy one at the right price and give it a try.

FNH USA is in South Carolina.

Just for the hell of it I checked the EE. Went back a month, there were quite a few MSAR rifles and 2 pre-ban AUGs. Not a single new Steyr. If there were 1-8 twist bbls on the Steyrs with 1/2X28 threading that I could use with a Gemtech bi-lock I'd grab a Steyr. The plethora of MSARs is a bit disconcerting.

I may call Pete Athens and chat with him next week. Maybe a call to Gemtech may be in order as well. Maybe they have bi-locks that work but still doesn't solve the twist.

MSAR hit the 10,000 rifle mark over a year ago now. There are a lot of them out on the market. You can go to any gun and knife show and find at least a couple of tables with MSARs. They're just way, way more in number.

MSAR built a shit load of them awhile back, hence the big incentive sale that went on.....lots of people jumped on board. Steyr prices basically remained stable, at one point they were throwing in a case (not sure if that's still going on).
With that, as said there are way more MSARs out there than Augs.
As such, you're going to find more of them for sale. Especially being that the economy hasn't improved. Also, people ran out and bought them in the craze when they were going for $1,300 and probably a good number of them shouldn't have bought one in the first place (based on finances and whatever other reasons).
 

10,000 MSARs were made as of last year

4000-6000 steyr AUG A1/A2/USRs were imported before the import ban
3000 Sabre Defence AUG A3s were made for batch one

There's 39 Steyr/Sabre made AUGS on gunbroker
Theres' 111 MSAR STG556s/E4s on gunbroker


Now i know that might not mean much, because we don't know how many STGs are still at MSAR, or if every single 10k+ STG was sent to a dealer, etc.
We also know that the economy is terrible and the gun market is down, but the numbers of Augs vs MSARs out there are similar, yet there are many more MSARs for sale (more than double)

if my numbers are wrong, let me know

Steyr has the design correct. and rightfully so with their design.

MSAR is still having teething issues.

MSAR is cheaper.

One has proven reliability, the other is still straightening problems out.

I had the same question as you, and when you can get a NATO AUG A3 from PJ's, it becomes a no brianer for the extra couple hundred bucks.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=760475&light=

This guy's been trying to sell his AXR for quite awhile. Maybe he'll be willing to deal. My AXR is the best rifle I've ever owned. Completely reliable. It has a 1-8 twist, 1/2x28 threaded barrel. It's all Steyr parts, so no problem keeping it running. It should also prove to be a good investment as there are only around 140 rifles out there and TPD is out of business now.

Voted AUG

the OG!!!!!

That's been sold. Too bad, that one really fit the bill.

Quick question about the Steyr A3 w/NATO stocks... which NATO stock works, and where are they?  I've read here and there that old NATO stocks (such as the ones at CDNN) did not fit the new A3 model?  Sorry for the hijack on this, couldn't find another thread that was even vaguely appropriate.  So what it looks like is around fifteen hundred bucks for the MSAR E4, or nineteen for a NATO A3?

Found this site, seems like he's all about the AUG

I like th E4 for the 1/2x28 barrel for my can and rail options.  Have had AXR, USR, STGs and AUG A1.  E4 is a keeper.

I do want an A3 AUG for collection, but the green E4 would still be a keeper.  E4 is a great way to get an original style optic too if you like that option...

There is a nub that has to be filed down on the older NATO stocks to make them fit.  They interfere with the top rail.  Once sanded down it is a non-issue....



 

I run a Gemtech G5 and they make a Bi-Lock for AUGs. So 1/2X28 isn't an issue. Barrel twist is, and I think if I'm patient there will be barrels coming on line. I may have to do more homework on rails, but if there is away to easily mount a white light then I don't need lots of rail.

Steyr

My vote is the E4. Other than my crappy msar mags and my faulty factory optic, the rifle itself has worked very well. Just my 0.02....
Mav

E4 without a doubt.

MadDog

My E4 has been running like a champ since day one. I have it with the STG Rail and like it.....







It's a keeper in my book.



I'd like to get all of the AUGs and their clones simply for collecting. But my E4 is my first and I love it.

extra couple hundred bucks

I see this argument on a few forums, and I'm always at a loss.  $1,500 for an E4 vs. $1950 for the A3 NATO.  I'm not gonna sit here and debate the individual merits of each rifle, or claim one is better than the other, but to the vast majority of folks, a nearly $500 difference is NOT inconsequential.  I'm not arguing with Steyr's pricing, I'm sure they sell nearly every one of those rifles(if not ALL) that they build.  But why do some folks insist that the prices are "close?"  If we're talking houses, yeah, $500 is not a big difference, or with a car.  But for 2 very similar rifles that, arguably, do the same things, that's a good chunk of change.  So, I guess if I was gonna buy one and put it in the safe, as some people are wont to do, I'd go with the Steyr.  It's name will hold it's value.  If I were going to buy it and shoot it regularly, I would go with the MSAR, not because I believe it is superior, but because I can do alot of other stuff with the $500 I save.  I guess my point is, it depends on what you want to do with it.

$1950 might be an unofficial MAP price.. when i was looking for AUG A3s i found more than one dealer with prices around $1800
People seeking an AUG A3 would do well to email/call the dealers of these rifles and ask how much they are.

Also, in the "pre-ban" days, even AUGs that were shot to shit were selling for $2500+. A used AUG A3 will definately keep its price over an MSAR, even used. Why? because Steyr has been in business for 150 years and has countless government contracts with dozens of governments. Sabre Defence also has dozens of military contracts.

Did you read my comment?  I pointed out that the Steyr would retain it's value better and would be a good bet for for that purpose.  So yes, if you plan to resell it later, go with the Steyr.  And the question is not E4 vs. AUG A3, it's E4 vs. AUG A3 w/NATO stock.  Before PJS was offering the rifles with the NATO stocks, you would pay around $1800 for the rifle and an additional $300 for the NATO stock.  Now PJS is offering the rifle with the NATO stock for $1950.  So the fact remains that the rifles are not that close in price as some would claim.

yes i did.. but you were leaning toward "if you want an investment go AUG, if you want to shoot it go MSAR" in my interpretation.

I am here to make sure the MSAR boys don't spew the whole "MSARs have problems because they make 10 bajillion rifles and if Steyr made 10 bajillion rifles they'd have as many problems, and that doesn't matter anyways because their CS fixes it" etc, etc, etc... when in actuality, the number of steyr augs worldwide is exponentially greater, and they still have less problems.

The only people who i've talked to from international .mil that dislikes the AUG because of breakage problems were Australian .mil and their Austeyrs are made in Australia by Thales Australia.

and i'm saying you're spewing those words, but it has been said on several occasions by several people.

ETA: The point is, if you wan't to buy something that you know will work as soon as you buy it, buy the Steyr. I have read many threads here alone that start with "Help, i just bought an MSAR, fired 5 rounds and it broke." Why gamble with your money, time and life/hunting game on something that isn't 100%? You can buy a bushmaster for $700-800, and it may work fine, but you can buy a colt for $1000-1100 and it WILL work.