User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 9/16/2017 11:34:24 PM EDT
[#1]
You're going to have a challenge because data won't be available.
Trail Boss won't be enough velocity but it would be hard to blow yourself up with it due to its low density. Highly unlikely that it will cycle the gun. The ideal load would involve powders faster than commonly used in this caliber. I don't exactly suggest you try it, it's just info you can use if you decide to try it. AA1680 immediately comes to mind as a possibility here. Maybe even 110. Proceed at your own risk if you choose to. The normal burn rate powders in 223 will tend to hang fire in super light loads, especially ball powders. So be careful. IMR4198 and H4198 are similar but they are NOT the same. Load data is not interchangeable between them. I think IMR4198 is fast burning for 223. It's a candidate. Let me ask something. Do you care about shooting a light bullet, a slow bullet, or both? If this is about shooting at lower velocity you'd have an easier time loading 75 and 77 grain bullets. If it's both, like I said, you'll need to experiment if you're up for that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/16/2017 11:51:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Might try IMR 4227 or Alliant 2400.
Faster burning powders that work well in .22 Hornet. Should get you in the ballpark and might cycle a carbine gas system. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/16/2017 11:52:45 PM EDT
[#3]
60% of a normal H4895 load is about 15-16gr, correct? That might do it.
I think the cast load guys found cycling was reliable at 19-20gr though. I'm curious, what is your purpose? ETA: read more. 
You might be able to load 20-22gr Benchmark. Start load is 25gr, so "at your own risk" start there and work down. 4.5-5.0gr of Red Dot should be about 1800+fps. Doesn't cycle. Mimics Harris' "The Load". Inspect each charge. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 12:09:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let me ask something. Do you care about shooting a light bullet, a slow bullet, or both? If this is about shooting at lower velocity you'd have an easier time loading 75 and 77 grain bullets. If it's both, like I said, you'll need to experiment if you're up for that. I could, and have, shot them with full power FMJ loads but that is not an ideal solution. Louder, less terminal performance, rounds are aimed up in the air with unknown distant backgrounds, etc. A load like this would fill a niche here. I asked about IMR4198 because it was listed at 2700fps (out of a longer barrel) and I have H4198 on hand. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 12:15:10 AM EDT
[#5]
I've used bluedot with 35 and 40 grain Vmax bullets in a bolt gun .
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 12:28:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You might be able to load 20-22gr Benchmark. Start load is 25gr, so "at your own risk" start there and work down. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 12:29:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've used bluedot with 35 and 40 grain Vmax bullets in a bolt gun . |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 12:42:36 AM EDT
[#8]
As HighpowerRifleBrony mentioned Hodgdon offers slower load data using H4895.
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf and TrailBoss loads: https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf On the other hand a CZ 527 American chambered in 17 Hornady Hornet just might fill the bill. 
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-american/ Beware if you buy one of these, your son might just lay claim to it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 12:48:57 AM EDT
[#9]
I've heard of "secondary explosion" or whatever a low charge of slower powder is supposed to cause, but never seen proof.
More likely is erratic ignition (from simply high ES to click-bang hangfires), and unburnt or incomplete burn powder residue in the bore. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 1:05:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Charge? Barrel length? Velocity? |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 1:42:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As HighpowerRifleBrony mentioned Hodgdon offers slower load data using H4895. https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf Again, this may be a silly venture, but if I can get what I want out of a 223 then I'd rather use this than buy another 22WMR even if I have to buy a bolt 223 because it would be more useful overall. I considered 17WSM (but nobody makes a decent gun for under $800) and 17 Hornady Hornet to fill this role but if I can get my AR to do it then so much the better. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 2:00:09 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've heard of "secondary explosion" or whatever a low charge of slower powder is supposed to cause, but never seen proof. More likely is erratic ignition (from simply high ES to click-bang hangfires), and unburnt or incomplete burn powder residue in the bore. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 4:34:51 AM EDT
[#13]
If you must have collaborating data (always a good idea) as mentioned above H-4895 is your best choice.
Some of us are using others for 55gr cast bullets and they are working and cycling the AR-15 but H-4895 should get you exactly what you want and if you are using a AR platform there's probably a good chance they will cycle too. Motor |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 8:19:34 AM EDT
[#14]
I came here to suggest the h4895 youth load as well.
Seems to be exactly what you are looking for and it is a published load so less guess work on your part. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 10:45:38 AM EDT
[#15]
 Attached File Attached Filehttp://www.jamescalhoon.com/bee.php Alliant powder doesn't show a load for .223 but they do show one for .221 . A customer that buys reloading components from us older gentleman we call " Squib load Bob " had a whole spread sheet of loads he worked up. His pet load is 14.0 grains of Bluedot but after working up my own data I ended up at 11 grains under 40 gr Vmax in Winchester brass. The rifle is a 12 twist Remington 24" barrel gun. You can shoot it without ear protection single shots like on pests much quieter than a normal round but I wouldn't do it all day. I've shot thousands of this load on prairie dogs in all kinds of weather but my disclaimer is try at your own risk . Interesting thing is a suppressor didn't change the sound at all ? |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2017 11:25:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/bee.php Alliant powder doesn't show a load for .223 but they do show one for .221 . A customer that buys reloading components from us older gentleman we call " Squib load Bob " had a whole spread sheet of loads he worked up. His pet load is 14.0 grains of Bluedot but after working up my own data I ended up at 11 grains under 40 gr Vmax in Winchester brass. The rifle is a 12 twist Remington 24" barrel gun. You can shoot it without ear protection single shots like on pests much quieter than a normal round but I wouldn't do it all day. I've shot thousands of this load on prairie dogs in all kinds of weather but my disclaimer is try at your own risk . Interesting thing is a suppressor didn't change the sound at all ? |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 12:33:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
So I bought a box of 40gr Vmax and I want to shoot them around 2500-2600 fps (223/5.56). Anyone done this? My Hornady reloading manual lists loads down to 2700 fps at the bottom end. That is with a much longer barrel than my 16" though. Congratulations! The 2700 fps loading Hornady gives will shoot slower out of your 16" barrel and should comfortably put you in the 2500/2600 fps range. Is H4198 and IMR4198 the same powder? Absolutely not. Consult: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ for current information about loads using a 40 grain bullet in 223. Also, observe the difference in charges between H4198 and IMR-4198. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 12:37:18 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might try IMR 4227 or Alliant 2400. Faster burning powders that work well in .22 Hornet. Tried that three decades ago. Gave up and went to IMR-4198 which is about as "fast" as one can go and still get reliable function. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 12:40:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I am aware that at some point reduced loads can be dangerous. H4198 will not be a problem if it is loaded a little bit beyond published minimum. Still, try the published minimum on http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ for H4198 and see if it doesn't get you where you want to be out of a 16" barrel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 1:21:13 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
H4198 will not be a problem if it is loaded a little bit beyond published minimum. Still, try the published minimum on http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ for H4198 and see if it doesn't get you where you want to be out of a 16" barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am aware that at some point reduced loads can be dangerous. H4198 will not be a problem if it is loaded a little bit beyond published minimum. Still, try the published minimum on http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ for H4198 and see if it doesn't get you where you want to be out of a 16" barrel. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 1:40:50 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, but IMR-4227 and 2400 won't reliably cycle a 223 AR's action. Tried that three decades ago. Gave up and went to IMR-4198 which is about as "fast" as one can go and still get reliable function. 14.5 didn't function. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 8:10:26 PM EDT
[#22]
For those that were interested, I picked up some H4895. I Started with 18.5gr and that clocked 1815, too slow. Rounds ejected but would not pick up a round or lock back. So next I tried 22.0gr and fired 3 over the chrono at 2185, 2234, and 2457. I am not sure why I got a big jump on the 2457? Fired 5 more into milk jugs and was getting the effect I wanted, good thump without total devastation and good fragmentation. All 22gr rounds cycled properly! 2200fps yields 430 FPE and should do the job just fine. I made up 10 more rounds at 22gr and 5 at 21gr for further testing this weekend, but I think you guys nailed it with H4895.
Sound with the SiCo Omega is just slightly louder than 22WMR through my Spectre II, but that is a bolt gun. Edited; I had to go down to 21.0 gr to average 2190, still cycled fine. Ran 10 rounds of 22.0 through the chrony today and that averaged 2390. 21.5 gr averaged 2280. The best part is that I did not have to adjust my gas block from my normal load and these are dead on at 100. All groups were around 1 MOA at 100 yards so I'm happy happy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 8:16:06 PM EDT
[#23]
I came across a plethora of information on another forum using Blue Dot powder. I've done it in my 22-250 with amazing results. If you're interested in the information just message me and I'll send you the link.
I'm not sure if it's against policy to post it here or not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 8:47:21 PM EDT
[#24]
IM sent, thanks
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 9:52:08 PM EDT
[#25]
The only problem with using a AR for lets say a squirrel rifle is the crazy short range trajectory due to the fact that that sights or optic is so far above the bore.
The H-4895 loads would be great in a nice bolt gun or I suppose in the AR for shorter range varmint. Motor |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 10:30:03 PM EDT
[#26]
This is true, especially if you were after something as small as a squirrel. 25 lb boar coon is a tad bigger though. My AR is sighted in 1" high at 100 and judging from the milk jug tests it is about 1" low at 30. I can work with that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 10:45:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I came across a plethora of information on another forum using Blue Dot powder. I've done it in my 22-250 with amazing results. If you're interested in the information just message me and I'll send you the link. I'm not sure if it's against policy to post it here or not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 10:54:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is true, especially if you were after something as small as a squirrel. 25 lb boar coon is a tad bigger though. My AR is sighted in 1" high at 100 and judging from the milk jug tests it is about 1" low at 30. I can work with that. I was surprised when I first entered my all my data into my ballistics program for my varmint load and found that sighted in 1" high at 100 yards is also 1" high at 200 yards. Having the scope almost 3" above the bore does weird things. Motor |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2017 11:09:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Look about half way down the first page for a guy named SEAFIRE. He's the reduced load guru in my mind.
223 Reduced Loads Using Blue Dot Powder |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/23/2017 12:02:02 AM EDT
[#30]
That was an interesting link. Especially with regard to his (albeit unscientific) notes on 40gr Vmax penetration, since that is what I'm working with. My 1st milk jug test did not exit the first jug. Then next 3 did, but they just poked a hole in the 2nd jug. I'm not sure they would have exited a coon, what with skin having the ability to stretch quite a bit. The milk jugs got me thinking though, that there may be a sweet spot above 2200FPS where the bullet totally fragmented and never exited. Problem is, when coon calling they tend not to stand still long and a marginal hit with a 3000+FPS Vmax is likely to leave a GIGANTIC hole in the hide. And they would be louder.
So far I'm pretty thrilled with what I have (further testing needed), which amounts to the equivalent of a Franklin Armory .17WSM AR (FPE speaking anyway), that fully functions and did not cost me another $1500. If I can't get consistent velocity, or accuracy, out of the 4895 then I will give Blue Dot a try.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/23/2017 1:26:32 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look about half way down the first page for a guy named SEAFIRE. He's the reduced load guru in my mind. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10685194/223-reduce-loads https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10685194/223-reduce-loads |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/24/2017 12:14:53 AM EDT
[#32]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/1/2017 11:07:44 AM EDT
[#33]
This is a very interesting thread. I went through a similar exercise about 10 years ago, looking for a load for my CZ527 that would bridge the gap between .17 HMR and full-power .223. I was using 40-grain VMAX as well.
Ultimately the 'reduced' loads using Red Dot, Blue Dot, and Trail Boss were quiet but extremely lacking in the accuracy department. Too many fliers, probably due to varying position of powder in the case. I never tried H4895 but it sounds like I should have. I settled on a light load of H335 under this projectile which produced excellent accuracy. I have shot my smallest groups ever at 100 yards with H335 and the 40-grain VMAX. Anyway, I can definitely confirm that at lower velocities the VMAX does not violently expand like usual, but instead penetrates. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/1/2017 9:24:28 PM EDT
[#34]
Maybe useful to pull the plastic bullet nose and wellah, a relatively large looking hollow point.
...or just load the bullet backwards and obtain a relatively large looking flat point. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
