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Page Armory » 50 Cal
Posted: 3/13/2006 4:10:09 PM EDT
then are .50 BMG upper conversions going to be outalwed in the banned states?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:30:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THRILLSEEKER:
then are .50 BMG upper conversions going to be outalwed in the banned states?



I'm sure that if it comes down too it the 50BMG uppers won't be off the hook. Once you put it on a receiver you have a 50BMG rifle....correct?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:47:59 AM EDT
Yes........ however if you have no s/n.............. and you didnt have to ncics it to purchase it...................
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:56:38 PM EDT
this may be a dumb question, but is NCICS how banned states would track down any .50 owners?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 3:32:32 PM EDT
The question was would it be banned, not would they be able to track it down. Its about the same as building a machine gun....go to knob Creek, buy a STEN kit, buy a blank tube, go home and put it all together. Do you have a machine gun? Yes. Can it be tracked? No. Is it legal? No. Are you going to prison and paying huge fines and legal fees? Probably. It all depends on what level of risk you're comfortable with.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:55:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 2:46:10 AM EDT by blusmoke]
I interpret the words "if outlawed" differently. My bad. SMG conversions to 50 upper conversions apples to oranges.
"If" banned most if not all states would have to grandfather the weapons owned. IE California, if correct you have to register the "lower".link Not the upper. it is not "illegal" to place one or more uppers on said lower if I read the statute correctly. I have been wrong before. If I was to ever want a 50 for future use in a soon to be banned state a 50 upper would be a very viable candidate for fitting the bill, rather than a s/n'eb weapon (not that they are allowed to keep the info on my paper work for such reasons). It all comes down to how the lawmakers word the prohibition of said caliber in said state or city. So far, we only have one state model to look at and hopefully it will be the only one.
If one builds any type of NFA weapon ( not just smg) and does not possess the correct paperwork, they should go to jail. Not saying that I agree with the current law, however it is the law I must abide at this time. I personally dont think there is a firearm worth owning that is worth going to jail for. I enjoy my civil liberties.

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 2:51:17 PM EDT
2 things.....


With regard to California. Putting something like a Ferret 50 or ALS upper assembly on a stripped lower, like a DPMS single shot or a FAB10, will effectively create a 50BMG rifle in the eyes of the law.

The 50BMG ban requires that you register it inorder to legally keep it, transport it, shoot it...

To legally register as a 50BMG, you HAVE to have had the lower receiver before the legislation went into effect back Jan 1st 2005.

Otherwise, you are in effect creating a 50BMG rifle that you aquired post 2005 and is a legal "no-no".

Hopefully guys like Darran at ALS or the folks at Spider/Ferret will start doing the 510DTC for California(not a 50BMG and won't chamber in guns for 50BMG, though the 510DTC is a virtual ballistic duplicate).


2nd, as for NFA. The uppers would likely be looked at as conversion parts. They would probably wind up being registered in a way similar to the DIAS and Lightning Links that are legally registered with the NFA that are Pre-86 transferables. Uppers would probably be similar.

Bad part, if the uppers became conversion parts, small shops like Darran at ALS or the guys at Safety Harbor or Spider/Ferret may very well fold up shop due to business drying up and dying over night. Then who will work on your uppers when it comes time for a new barrel or work to be done?

That is the one reason why it's nice to have a big name full rifle from somebody like Armalite or Barrett, large companies that are likely to see enough gov't. type work to keep them in business for years after a ban on 50BMG should they be added to the NFA and you would have a much better chance of getting your precious gun serviced should something go wrong.


I own an ALS 50BMG upper and while it shoots great, I am worried about what should happen if the 50BMG is ever added to the NFA. For that reason I'm looking into a 510DTC offering(I'm in California) with something like the Bluegrass Armory Viper or maybe the Serbu(not considering EDM, to pricey).
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 3:40:38 PM EDT
Thanks for the read.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:05:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uglygun:
That is the one reason why it's nice to have a big name full rifle from somebody like Armalite or Barrett, large companies that are likely to see enough gov't. type work to keep them in business for years after a ban on 50BMG should they be added to the NFA and you would have a much better chance of getting your precious gun serviced should something go wrong.


I own an ALS 50BMG upper and while it shoots great, I am worried about what should happen if the 50BMG is ever added to the NFA.




Good gunsmiths will be able to work on a 50, it doesn't have to be the original manufacturer. precision metal work is precision metal work, never mind the size.

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:13:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 4:13:37 PM EDT by uglygun]
Agreed.

But the williness of a gunsmith to work on a gun has a lot to do with his understanding of the design.

Gunsmiths often times are particular to certain designs or makes. You stand a much higher chance of somebody willing to do work on an Armalite or McBros action due to it being so similar to a Remington 700. Plus you have the option of always going back to the factory for service.

Regardless, that is a benefit to going with a big name manufacturer and getting an actual full tilt rifle.


Take a relative "no name" like an ALS upper to somebody and it is unlikely they are going to want to monkey with it, or you may wind up getting charged a premium for it.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:19:37 PM EDT
Yes........ however if you have no s/n.............. and you didnt have to ncics it to purchase it...................

But..... If you read the ATF guide on what is a gun. You will see some possible problems that may or may not be dealt with later. The ATF says a gun is capable of firing a projectile by itself.

The uppers gained popularity due to the AR15 and the autosear. With this ability to self install an autosear, the ATF decided to classify the AR lower as the receiver. Odd since all the other guns they deal with the receiver is the receiver. But that worked out ok, since if you had an AR in 223 and wanted a 22-250, the swap was simple. the firing pin and hammer could be used from the AR so the barrel you received would not fire by itself, hence, not a firearm.

But then the 50 came on scene. Suddenly you need a barrel and bolt and firing pin, and hammer, and springs, ect. So if you put that 50 barrel down on a table, put a bullet into it, close the bolt, and hit the firing pin with a hammer, boom. Now since this scenrio shows that the 50 conversion can fire a bullet by itself, is it a firearm?

The upper manufacturers say no!! Its an upper!!!

But it does what ATF says a firearm must do to be a firearm. I asked an ATF agent out of curisoty one day and was told they were looking into that. But I have not asked since nor have I heard anything else on the subject.

To buy or not to buy? That is the question.

I chose the real gun, since I was not willing to chance some future ruling from ATF and their being able, if I was caught with it, to say I had a firearm that was not checked through NICS, and had no serial number, and I bought without an FFL. It just was not worth me being concerned about it.

Especially since the upper and all the hammers and springs and bipods, and tinkering with it and possibly have it beat my aluminum lower to pieces, cost about the same as several of the complete guns.

I even surmized that if I bought an upper and the ruling changed, I probally would not be caught with it in the first place. But my children reminded me that everyone in jail thought they would not be caught as well.

Anyway, uppers are legal to buy and own. At least today. Are they as good as a real gun? Don't really know, I can't do the time, so I spent an extra dime. I know my guns, even if outlawed, can be grandfathered in.

Eric

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:16:13 PM EDT

But then the 50 came on scene. Suddenly you need a barrel and bolt and firing pin, and hammer, and springs, ect. So if you put that 50 barrel down on a table, put a bullet into it, close the bolt, and hit the firing pin with a hammer, boom. Now since this scenrio shows that the 50 conversion can fire a bullet by itself, is it a firearm?


By this reasoning, then a length of pipe, a nail and a hammer would be a 'firearm' too. Indeed all those 'zip' guns from years past prove that they would at times be prosecuted as such, but clearly, intent would have to be proven.
Still, all the .50 cal upper conversions I've received have been serialized and both Spider Firearms (Ferret50) and Safety Harbor Firearms (UltraMag50) now offer complete rifles in addition to the conversions. Perhaps they're anticipating such measures by the feds... ??

Here in CA, conversions have to be registered right along with regular rifles, so the point really is moot so far as CA law is concerned. If you already have a registered .50bmg lower, there's little point in registering is again as a .50bmg rifle.

Regarding wear to a lower from the conversion upper... after two years of use with my UltraMag50, there still isn't any!

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:31:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 3:39:03 PM EDT by uglygun]

Originally Posted By TacticalCenterfire:

But then the 50 came on scene. Suddenly you need a barrel and bolt and firing pin, and hammer, and springs, ect. So if you put that 50 barrel down on a table, put a bullet into it, close the bolt, and hit the firing pin with a hammer, boom. Now since this scenrio shows that the 50 conversion can fire a bullet by itself, is it a firearm?




And you can do exactly the same thing with any AR15 upper assembly you purchase.

Might be stupid, especially considering if the person forgets to remove the gas tube so that the carrier won't come flying back and nail them.

But take a screw driver, put it through the back of the upper receiver/bolt carrier resting on the firing pin and hit the end of the screw driver with a hammer.

This is no different than a 50BMG upper assembly.

So if you are fearful of buying a 50BMG upper assembly you better buy all the AR15 upper assemblies you can forsee that you will ever need.


50BMG upper receivers are very likely to be registered in a way similar to NFA transferable lightning links and DIAS so the hysteria is not something that I agree with.


And lets not forget that it is legal to make firearms for your own personal use provided you comply with ATF regs and stay within federal/state guidelines. What about all the home built 50BMG rifles such as built up M2 semiautos from a right side plate, they are perfectly legal firearms and if the NFA ever tries to snag the 50BMG they too will have to be permitted to be registered.
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