I purchased my first MG a few months ago (FNC with a registered sear) and I already have the itch for more.

The more that look into different guns and their costs, I've determined that an HK sear is the best value for what it gets you.  I already have a few hosts (Vector V53 SBR, V93, and an MKE Mp5 clone SBR) and other hosts can be had for relatively cheap for clones and not too bad for actual HK guns.

$30-35k gets you the ability to turn basically any HK roller locked gun into a full auto.  Even the HK 21/23 beltfed hosts can be bought for $10-12k, which is not bad considering a transferable 1919 is around $20k, and M60s are $45k+.

Am I overlooking anything? It seems to me like an HK sear is a better value than a Colt M16 RR.

Hopefully I'll have enough capital on hand to pick a sear up by this spring. I'm going to try to get one as soon as possible.

Maybe, if you care more about .308 than .22 (compared to the M16). But hosts are easily $1500+, and belt-fed hosts are retardedly expensive. You have to factor in the cost of hosts, especially with HK sears.

"Value" doesn't really matter though. It matters what guns you want to shoot in full auto. I love HKs and don't really enjoy shooting M16s, so for me the "value" of an M16 would be extremely low in spite of its flexibility.

I make no comment on value.  Value is in the eye of the spender.  

My only comment as the owner (former owner) of many MGs is the biggest mistake I've ever made regarding selling an item is letting my MP5 go.  (OK, maybe selling my 67 Camaro is also a big fail).  

I must have been daft.  Or actually suffering from post near death experience and trying to clean up all my stuff so my wife wouldn't have to deal with it.  That MP5 was easily the best weapon I've ever owned.  reliable.  Smooth.  Easy to load mags.  Cheap (ish) ammo.  

I say if you can afford it get the HK.  I'd get another one except this.  Having bought my first one in 2001 I can't bring myself to pay the current price point.  Not that I can't - I just won't.  

You'll be into a 21e or 23e clone for a lot more than $10k once you get spare barrels, belt boxes, tripods and mounts, and spare parts. Plus the clones in that price range are questionable, and I speak from experience since I own a mm23e. Here's a tip: don't ever do business with mike otte, and don't let him touch your guns or your sears. You only find positive reviews of his work on hkpro because everyone that's had a bad experience is afraid to say anything for fear of losing long term support for their expensive (yet crappy) builds.

Plus, let's not forget that you're paying $10-12K for a title 1 firearm which will only lose value over time. Only go the belt fed route if you are really sure you want one.

If you want to do it the right way, you'll find a german 21e parts kit and hk 91, and send it to TSC. It'll cost twice as much as a mm, but it'll be built correctly and work.

OP you are confusing value with versatile. HK Sear is very versatile, like a RDIAS, but the value is long gone.

SWD M11/9 is still probably one of the best values.

Owning both HK sears and Colt M16s, I have to say that if I had to choose just one I don't know what I would do.

The m16 is easy to perform armorer-level maintenance, easy to swap configurations, is very ergonomic, and has readily available parts at reasonable prices.

The HK sear is the most flexible/versatile option available IMO and roller delay fullautos are just fantastic. But it comes with expensive hosts, expensive spare parts, inability to easily perform armorer-level maintenance.

Really a better comparison is the RDIAS vs HK sear. And I think the HK sear still wins in the flexibility/versatility department in all areas except 22lr. Personally I find 22lr to be boring, so this isn't a consideration for me.

When it comes to MGs I think you have to use emotion not logic in choosing what to buy next - what excites you the most. Use that criteria and you'll never be disappointed.

Holy shit, we must be the only two people on this site that don't get excited over .22LR. Even on full auto, it just doesn't do it. It makes me smile for a couple mags, that's it.

The second part of your post should be etched in stone. Buying a machine gun should not ever be a logical decision. It should be absurd. We're spending a minimum of $6,000 on a gun that has the convenience of holding our finger backward instead of moving our finger back and forth. You have to buy what speaks to you. I'm waiting for my first and already planning on my second. That's retarded, and I don't care.

Yeah I love the Hk sear and RDIAS. So many options!!! It would be tough to choose only one, but if money isn't a factor, then yeah I'd go HK sear. If money was a factor, then RDIAS will be the cheaper route. 

Make that 3.

If you're looking for the cheapest MG the best value would be a SMG for under $6k

If you have a large collection of HK firearms already and want to shoot a variety of calibers including 308 than a HK sear probably makes sense. Just keep in mind that non-clone HKs can run many thousands of dollars, the HK21/23s are more like $15K. Most people who drop $35k on a sear pay extra for original parts and don't mess with clones. I don't own any HKs, but maybe those who do can comment but I was under the impression that a sear is not as easy to move from gun to gun as people think it is. I believe it takes at least as much if not more effort than it would be to swap an upper on an M16.

Which brings me to my final point, I wouldn't write off the M16 so easily, you can shoot every pistol and intermediate cartridge other than a 308 through an M16. Technically it would be a lot cheaper to have a RLL or non-colt RR and a bunch of uppers than a HK setup, and a belt fed option starts out around $4k

FWIW I bought an M16 because I love the AR15 platform., the "versatility" was just a bonus. But honestly I only own 3 uppers, the first is a short barreled upper with lights, lasers and all the cool stuff, the second is a LMG upper, great for people wanting to chew through a box of ammo just for the wow factor and good for new shooters as it allows them to sit on a bench or even lay down and shoot. The third is a classic upper with iron sight handle  upper that I borrow off of my AR15, some times its fun shoot old school with out all of the technology. I was planning to put together a 9mm upper but now that I have a M11/9 I've scrapped that idea.

For the people voting HK sear, what are your favorite hosts? Which MP5 variant is your favorite to shoot?

Not even close to the best "value", although that is an opinion not a fact.  And I'm pretty sure you can't just bring all your hosts to the range and easily and swap out the sear, although I might be wrong on that.

I would agree with other posters sentiments that “value” in the transferable machinegun game is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

What one person may find super attractive may hold no real value to somebody else.  A classic example in this thread being 22lr machineguns.  Some folks want a gun that have a 22LR host/conversion option…..others could care less.

That said, HK sears are still a great option to any transferable machinegun collection given the varying array of hosts they can legally convert.     I have three sears and a sizeable pile of hosts from 9MM all the way up to belt fed which are a mix of clone and German.    I don’t know if I have a personal favorite host, as they all have their pluses and minus.   However,  if forced to pick it would probably be the HK51 just due to the sheer raw experience of a full auto 8” barreled 308.  Practical….hell no….do I always walk away smiling….a resounding yes.  There really isnt anything else like it.

Swapping hosts around with an HK sear isn’t too bad.  I would rank HK sears somewhere in the middle of the pack.   Lighting Links are the easiest to move from host to host, follow by HK sears/boxes (especially if moving within the same caliber MP5 to MP5K), and the last being DIAS since you have to pull and swap over all the individual fire control parts in a true move to a whole new host arrangement.

I don’t ever move my HK sear packs around from host to host in the field.   I usually just set up a couple HK hosts at home before heading to the range.  Its pretty rare that all three sears even come with me to the range at the same time.

Whether an HK sear represents a better value proposition compared to an M16 its really hard to say.  An HK sear will run you significantly more than a registered receiver M16, so whether that 5 to $10K delta is worth it to you, only you can decide.    I personally wouldn’t sell off all four of my M16s before letting an HK sear go, just because the HK sears may represent a better value.  I also have no plans to add a 4th HK sear to the mix either.

I can quite confidently say that the last two machineguns I will probably ever let go of will be an HK sear and a M16.  The very last gun to go would probably be an M16 but it would be a tough call.

Thanks for the info. Like a few others have said, I don't care about .22LR, so I'm not worried about that.

I've made my mind up that an HK sear is what I want,  and your post reaffirms that.

Now I just have to finishing putting together the cash for one and find one.

The concept of "value" is meaningless when talking about machine guns.  

You're buying a $1500 gun and a $28,500 piece of paper.

An old Remington 870 express at the gun shop for $250 is a good value.

To tell a guy who owns a $30,000 Thompson that your $30,000 HK is a better value is absurd.

95% of the cost of the gun is collector value and for most MGs that collector value exists only because the Hughes created an artificial scarcity.


These threads about the "best machine gun" don't really make much sense.

If owning a machine gun was about caliber changes and versatility, then the AR15/M16 would win hands down.  You could play erector set for rest of your life with that platform for dirt cheap.  Literally endless accessories.

If owning a machine gun was about bang per buck, then the MACs would win.  You get a good running MG with lots of spare parts for $6000 or so.

But....

Owning an MG is not about usefulness or practicality.  If it was, then none of us would own one.


Buying an MG is like buying a collector car.  You're buying awesomeness, not usefulness.  

A 1958 Bonneville convertible is not the fastest car and you're not buying it to haul lumber.

A guy who's a huge UZI fanboy is not going to sell it to buy RLL so he can shoot 5 different calibers.  

Etc.

There was a thread on GD about what MG people wanted to own, they answers had nothing to do with versatility.  People picked stuff like M3 grease guns and MG42s and Thompsons, the thread was all about "coolness".


Speaking of which, that is the one thing that I could not care less about: caliber changes.

I can't understand why that's such a huge deal to some people.  

if a gun shoots a great round like 9mm, 45acp or 223, then why do you want to change it?

Especially 22.  I had a 22 kit for my UZI and it jammed a lot and when it ran it was boring.  

shooting 9mm out of an UZI is fun, shooting 22 is like shooting a full auto BB gun in comparison.

and most 22 kits are jammy, which is torture.  

my UZI was always sucking a 22 casing back into the receiver somehow.  yuck

While .22LR converted guns are usually headaches and not as fun as their full caliber chambering...I'd LOVE to own a full auto AM 180.
I get the 22LR hate, but the AM 180 is a badass little plinkster.

My opinion. I think bar none the m11/9 is the best value right now. I say that based on its current cost, the potential for a upper in .223 in the near term, as well as the likelihood that it will probably be the most likely candidate for future conversion uppers. Next I would say an RLL or a lower cost forged m16 RR. HK sears are awesome and very versatile but they have just shot up in price so much that the value isn't as good as it used to be.

I'm surprised you've had such a negative experience with your MM23e.  I'll admit, working with Mike wasn't without hiccups and rough patches, but my 23ek is like a work of art.  The welds are perfect, the finish is flawless, and it runs with boring reliability.  He set up my searpack as well.

Mine is horrible. The front sight was canted about 10 degrees, making it impossible to zero since there wasn't enough adjustment in the rear. Took two trips back to Mike to resolve because he only uses a laser bore sight. He didn't refinish the entire gun when he rewelded the front sight, either, so my gun has a two tone finish where the texture is a little different when he duracoated the front sight the second time.

The cocking tube is bent under the cage. Not visible unless you remove the barrel. The cage is also warped in two areas, and several welds are very sloppy, protruding out. The line of holes on the top of the cage twist from back to front. The feed mech mounting isn't quite level with the receiver.

He also did my burst pack, which was another problem. The timing was so far off that my mp5k-n could not fire. The trip lever wouldn't actuate. My pack went back to him 3x and he never fixed it. He kept saying it was my host, except my k ran perfect with a friend's DLO frame using factory hk parts. So we knew the host was fine.

I finally sent my mp5k-n and pack to TSC who took care of it in less than 24 hours. Had to pay the de-Otte fee (yes, not kidding). Timing was also correct on my E after this.

I spent many hundreds of dollars on shipping due to registered mail on the pack and sending the gun back and forth so many times. Mike Otte will never touch my stuff again. It sucks that I have to deal with him for barrels or warranty issues in the future.

you sure its not bondo? He has been know to bondo his guns.

Even if its not, you got lucky. Many of his guns had to be rebuilt by other smiths and many of them still don't run.



OP: I think you miss-used the term "value" for "flexibility".

I have both, the dias is fun, you can change calibres pretty easy but I will take a HK sear over a dias anyday of the week.

DIAS=cheapish good times but stuck with a AR frame. You have a couple beltfed options but they suck as beltfeds

HK: expensive but you get many different types of guns, beltfeds to subguns that are purpose built for the task, not a strap on. The clones can work but the best bet is to spend the money on actual HK guns, or get the best smith to build you a exact copy.

I spent a lot of time over the summer that just ended getting an Uzi .22 conversion that I bought in 2007 and an M16 .22 conversion that I bought in 2008 to run well.  The reason - grandkids can shoot .22 full auto, 9 mm and 5.56, not so much.  They love raking a full auto burst of .22 fire across a line of balloons.

Meanwhile back on topic, I vote for the M16 RDIAS for most generally usable versatility.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

Wow, that's crazy!  To be honest, I've never zeroed my irons on mine.  I just threw a T1 on it and zeroed that.  It seems to co-witness pretty close. I'm sure if I tightened up the zero on the T1 and then zeroed the irons, they'd be damn close.

Sorry to hear you've had such a bad experience, but glad TSC got you straightened out.  I read loads of poor things about the BPP builds, but hardly anything negative about MM.

He absolutely should have refinished the whole gun at minimum.  That's just sloppy, IMO, especially when you drop $12k on one of them.

I'll have a close look, but they look like welds.  He did some custom work to my gun at my request, so he may have taken his time assembling it and making sure everything was right.  It took 14 months to get it after ordering.

I'd post pictures, but I don't want to hijack OP's thread.









OP, forgive me for my slight diversion.  To your question, I own both an HK wear and a factory M16.  I'm not sure I could choose one.

I can tell you that it would come down to a choice of the HK sear in a full-size MP5 or the RR set up as a MK18.  I love both setups.  The MK18 probably gets used more than the MP5, but that's because all my friends who go shooting with me want to swap their uppers onto my lower.  

You'll be really happy with either one.

At the moment, I think the best value on the market right now is some sort of MAC, preferably an M11/9.  The lage options really changed the game and if that 5.55 upper comes out, it'll really be a fantastic value IMO.

Thanks for the info, and feel free to go ahead and post the pictures you mentioned.

After I pick up a sear the next step is going to be picking up an HK 21, so I'm all for hearing about all I can about TSC and MM, as they seem to be the best two sources of these guns.

Best bet is to call Mike at TSC and discuss it.

I'll try and post some pictures tomorrow.  Just had a look at the gun close up and the welds aren't perfect, but look fine to me.  Finish is great.

I don't think I can tell what (if any) parts are bondo vs. weld visually.

Right, so I snapped some quick pictures on my phone.  They aren't great, so let me apologize in advance.  I thought there was more welding than this on the gun, but this probably constitutes the majority of it.  Anyway, here are some pics starting with a picture of the full gun.

uh those are not very good welds at all.

Undercutting on the bolt carrier, inconstant travel speed, defects and a lot of porosity (contamination-see all those pits/holes in the weld=not clean),  

they will probably work but I would not be happy.

You're right, they're not pretty when you look at them close up.  I'm not sure what I was thinking using the word "perfect" to describe them,thought I have to admit that I'm not an expert on welds at all.  I understand what travel speed is but haven't a clue what undercutting is.

Ultimately, the gun looks pretty as far as the finish is concerned.  The welds are meh, you're right, but they seem to work.  And the gun functions almost flawlessly, which is basically the most important to me.



All that said, everything I've seen out of TSC has been outstanding.  If someone were looking to get a gun built through a parts kit, they're probably the one's I'd want doing it.  The catch is that it will cost 3 times as much unfortunately.  As for mine, I could probably send it back and ask Mike to clean up the welds on it, as well as re-finish it again once he's done.  The issue is timing, I'm sure, because like any other builder I bet I wouldn't see it again for a few months.  And for the moment at least, it's working and staying together.






In the land of clone/built HK beltfeds, there are probably 3 tiers.

BPP - Cheapest, $8-10k iirc.  Guns don't look so great, function even more questionable.  Loads of disaster stories.
MM - Middle tier, $11-14k.  Finish on the guns tends to be good, welds suspect but probably satisfactory.  Weapons function reliably, but have some QC issues.
Parts kit build by TSC, RDTS, etc. - Expensive.  I've seen them north of $30k just for the semi host.  Guns use genuine HK parts and receivers, are flawless cosmetically, and run well.

I'd put MM with BPP. The welds and build quality on my mm23e are abysmal, and multiple return trips have only resulted in minimal effort to resolve things on the part of Mike Otte.

Yikes! I recently bought a HK sear and had planned on a MM23E and grabbing a Colt M16 next year as my 2nd machine gun. Now I'm leaning more towards a M60 to scratch the huge beltfed itch I have.
I know it's a long shot... but I have my fingers crossed that the latest news about Zenith focusing entirely on roller locks means HK23E clones down the road.

I got my MM23E 2011.

I had to send it back twice for non-function, although the welds look better than the photos. I don't see pits. Repair time was about several months each time.

The first time I got it, it ran for a belt or 2, then wouldn't run more than 2-3 rounds before jamming.

After the first repairs, it never ran well, so back it went. The feed box backlash or some such wasn't right.

I have shot maybe 3 belts since I got it back and it works great. Whether it would run after 100 belts? I don't know.

I mainly shoot 9mm subguns with my registered sear, and if I want to shoot a belted, I shoot my M16/Shrike or M60.

If I'm going to lug a 20# MG, it's the M60. It's more controllable, and doesn't beat up the brass like the MM, which throws the empties out 20 yards and smashes the case necks.

My MM23E welds don't have any porosity but they do seem to have more undercutting and inconsistent travel speed compared to a factory HK.   I also see no evidence of bondo filler to hide voids or smooth out weld joints.  Overall the welds on my gun are perfectly serviceable and acceptable to me.

That said I generally don't see anybody weld as clean as a factory HK gun, which I assume is done with specialized jigs, robots, etc.   Many of the HK welds are almost perfect beads which no "stack of dimes" affect that is commonly present in manual TIG welds where the welder has to manually add filler material.

There is definitely a difference in weld quality between domestic clone builders and HK,  but you have not seen "poor" welds unless you compare to a SW/Baily & Co. gun.  I have a couple unbuilt SW MP5 receivers that I have had for probably a decade that just were not worth the investment to try and build up into complete guns as the welds and quality is really poor.

Many of the US builders seem to always have a bit more undercutting as they appear to rely more upon fusion/butt welds type where little to no filler material is used.   I am guessing this is done to minimize heat transfer and warping.  

When they do use filler it is more obvious as you get inconsistent weld beads vs HK. HK can somehow make a nice raised weld bead that looks like a small roll of modeling clay was stretched out and stuck onto the metal.  

I also see more "sugaring" on the backside of US clones where the shielding gas cant reach, where I assume HK does their welds in a sealed box to minimize this.

MM23E rear sight vs. German HK33.  You can see how the HK weld is almost perfectly smooth vs. the ribbing on the MM rear sight weld.

Attached File


More MM23E welds (top) compared to HK (bottom)   HK cocking tube has that perfect raised "modeling clay" type weld.

Attached File




I suspect like many small shops MM may have different "employees" that produce different quality work at varying points in time.   It could be that the guns built after a certain timeframe are welded by a different guy who wasn't able to replicate the previous work.  Same goes for Vector and their Uzi's, or HK build by Volmers pre & post Terry Dyer where you see varying quality out of the same company over time.

Maybe I am lucky in that I have not had the level of problems others have or my was built with another set of helper/employees.  While my experience wasn't perfect, my gun has pretty much run from day one when fed 62gr ammo.  I also wanted an 23EK and I couldn't bring myself to chop up a 91 and use up a rare 23E kit to make something so far off the reservation model wise utilizing valuable German parts.

I have started to get the itch for a full size 21E and am contemplating a full or close to full German build by TSC if I am staying within the factory built models.  However my personal experience with MM wouldn't completely turn me off from buying a 21E from him, especially at half the pricetag.

Imo, rdias were and are a better investment...
While technically a hk sear is more versatile.
The cheap hosts and MODULARITY/popularity of the M16/AR15
make it more desirable to most first time buyers...

But....

I may be biased based on what i paid for my dias vs my hk sear...
Also if a m16 .308 beltfed upper is released it may be a game changer..
There is alot of potential for new hosts to affect the market with many MGs.

IMHO, BUY WHAT YOU WANT!

Edit
I received my MM21e and it all round look better than both of yours. I guess i got lucky.

The welds on those MM leave alot to be desired.
Im waiting to see mine, while im not OCD about it, if the welds aren't sexy...its a dissapointment..
Anyone can weld.. while i appreciate what it take to get a flat in spec and looks arent that important.
I could hack somthing myself for alot less.

I should have an mm mp5 in a week or two. Ill post photos and review.
Honestly i only ordered the mp5 from mike since i was already ordering beltfeds from him.

While ive already been forming an opinion about his service, i can judge till i see the final product.


Also the way I hear it there are only 2 employees at MM, whixh6 to me is a good thing

besides my post at HK, what stories have you heard?

How many guns in the wild have you actually seen- there are very few of them

I would like to know as I have called/emailed/met a lot of people with the guns to see if I'm the only one.

No, you're not. I have no use for .22LR or short. I've never owned a .22LR or short weapon and have no interest in ever owning any. Yes, .22 ammo is cheap, but, I don't buy cheap, I buy what interests me. Cheap never has interested me. Even back in the 80's when I first got interested in collecting guns and was only making minimum wage. My first firearm was a brand new S&W model 29 .44 magnum. I sold that and bought a Colt Python (my second firearm). I later sold that and bought a Colt SP1 AR15 (my third firearm). I was only making minimum wage back then and I still had no interest in .22LR or short firearms. So, no, you're not alone. I've owned my Colt M16A1 for about 22 years and have never had any interest in purchasing a .22 conversion kit because I have no interest in .22.

My vote is for a Colt M16 registered sear because it's not as expensive (I'm retired on fixed income, but, I'm not cheap) and I like my M16A1. I had an H&K 94 conversion into MP5A3 by S&H before I bought my Colt M16A1. The MP5 was very nice, but, I preferred to have a 5.56 caliber machinegun as opposed to a 9mm sub-machinegun. That 9mm round is no comparison to a rifle round. That was my motivation to sell the MP5 and get the M16A1. By the way, I had an AWC suppressor for the MP5 and it was especially fun to shoot on full auto with the suppressor. I could shoot the MP5 suppressed outside without having to wear any ear plugs and that was fantastic. I got an AAC 240 SD suppressor and use that on my M16A1 outdoors and it also does not require ear plugs to shoot, even on full auto. Which is even more awesome than that MP5.

when an HK sear cost the same as a Sendra, yeah it was the best overall value.  I kick myself for not buying one locally at $12k, but I had just entered the world of NFA and $12k seemed insane for a piece of metal and I really wanted an M16.

now that it costs two Sendras, not so much.

The M11 may be the better value for a shooter, but the MAC10 has some historical provenance and you can now shoot 9mm suomi drums with one using Lage's new upper.  They tend to be a little cheaper than an M11 too.

The FNC and an off brand AR lower are the best deals and values out there.

A HK sear is almost on the bottom of the list.