I guess I'll be a reluctant reality-check to you here, OP.  IMO, the market for true M16s and HK Sears/Packs has gotten to the point where you almost have to "be made of money" to get one.  It's all about priorities obviously; if you cut back on stuff and save and save, you can eventually get into one.  

But IMO, you've gotta be really committed to doing it.  If your budget right now is $5000, you're delusional about getting into an RR or an HK sear/pack unless you start really putting some money away fast.  They're appreciating 8-10% per year on average.  On an HK sear, that's $2500-3000 per year.  If you save $10,000 a year, it'll take you probably 4 years to catch them somewhere around $40k, assuming they continue the trend.  They have stalled a little recently, but expect them to start going back up again.

At the moment, you're not even in the same realm price-wise as the MGs you desire.  You are close to MAC range, though you'll probably have to save a few more grand to get in one of those unless you find a 50-50 deal.

These things aren't cheap, unfortunately.  I'd personally love to have a Stoner 63, but I can only afford to throw $12-15k at one right now.  Like you, I'll have to sacrifice a lot and save to catch up to them.  

If you aren't willing to save fast and sacrifice a lot to do so, your options become more limited.  I've actually been considering picking up a MAC 11/9 over the past few months.  I already have the two guns you desire, the HK sear and a Colt RR.  But I do think the MAC is a great platform, even if it's a bit of an ugly duckling.  I've been sort of kicking myself on the prices and for not getting in sooner though.  And I've gotten more in the hole by waiting to try and find the right deal.

I remember when the 11/9s were $5000 and the M10s and other varients were like $3000-3500.  Next thing I knew, 11/9s were $6500 and I kept waiting to find another in the $5000-5500 range...I thought they were overpriced at $6500.  

Now they're like $8000 and I'm trying to find one in the $6500 range.  I bet I won't find it.  In another year, I'll be kicking myself for not buying one in the $7500-8000 range.


Point is, if you want to, you've got to get in shortly or otherwise, you'll be chasing the dream a bit.  It might make good sense to get into a MAC as soon as possible and then trade-up when you can.

OP. I was in the same boat and what you've heard here is the ground truth with respect to the market and it have more velocity than your savings plan. I purchased an UZI in September of 2015 for $10k. Screening the market now it's difficult to find one of similar condition for under $16k. Don't be afraid to sell some of your title 1 weapons to fund the MG purchase and move out. Like real estate they have become an investment so regardless of which MG you decide the purchase it's unlikely you'll come out on the other end in the red for the long term. Short term....price JUST went up.

This. Sell some semiautos to fund a MG or MGs. You will be glad you did.

I've never sold blood, but I definitely skimped on many other things in order to buy MGs. And recently (well 2 yrs ago) sold off a bunch of desirable title-1 guns, high end optics, and high end parts/accessories to fund a Fleming HK sear that I just couldn't pass up. It was initially tough for me to let go of these items - Swiss SIG 551s, AUG A3, USR barrel, a couple LE-marked Colts, S&B 4-16 PMII, among others. The sting wore off rather quickly. I never shot those guns, they just sat in the safe. The only item I really miss is the S&B. The sear is being installed in a ambi/Navy lower in a HK94 converted to MP5-N. It will never sit in the safe unused.

Wanted to add a follow up on the above. I confirmed today that the MGs he's selling are actually the S&W 76 model.

Here's his Website. Don't be expecting some beautifully constructed site. He's a really nice guy, an older gentleman, and it's pretty clear that web design is probably very foreign to him  Pricing now is definitely higher than I'd remembered seeing on the flyer he had posted at my range. He does also offer a package that includes a suppressor.

The website does explain how these are technically "new" production, and will probably make more sense to those more familiar with transferrable FA weapons.  Given that he only has a finite quantity for sale, that could be what's driving the price a little higher; as the backstock dwindles.

Both Jim Burgess (of JMB Distributing) and Brian Poling (of BRP Guns) both manufacture "new" transferable guns utilizing transferable pre-86 "Stemple" tubes.

The original manufacturer of these machinegun receivers/tubes was a gentleman named John Stemple.  John created the Stemple 76/45 which was essentially a scaled up S&W76 gun in 45 ACP.     When I first got into machineguns around 98/99 John was still around and selling his basic 76/45 guns via ads in Shotgun news for roughly $1000.  Over the years his design changed and become a bit more "refined" and the prices went up.   John was one of the fairly prolific 02 back int he 80s and registered a bunch of machineguns in addition to his own designed 76/45.

At some point Jim Burgess managed to acquire a bunch of bare Stemple 76/45 registered tubes.  My memory is fuzzy but I want to say this was early 2000s as he has been selling those 76s for quite some time.     I think it was a couple years later Brian at BRP guns got a bunch of tubes as well and started marketing his guns.    I think John died in mid 2000s give or take.

This essentially left most of John Stemple's inventory of transferable unbuilt/bare 76/45 Stemple tubes in the hands of JMB and BRP.   JMB makes a S&W76 style gun in 9MM and Brian makes a whole variation of guns off John's tubes.

I have no clue how many tubes are left at this point between the two of them but prices have continued to rise over the years.   Overall reputation of JMB and BRP guns appear to be good but they lack any military significance or range-panache so have lagged a bit behind price-wise.

I took posession of my U9/U45 kit from BRP 2 months ago and couldnt be happier. The prices sure did go up as they have done in the past. I think he will do a 50 50 deal as well if you are close bit not quite. I am happily acquiring all the accessories over time from the brp website. I like it so much i just bought an m11 so i can run the max 31 and have another systen for all the mags i got.

Very much appreciate the background/history. Far more than I was able to offer. Outside of meeting Jim once, most of what I'd learned about him was passed on by the guy that runs that particular range. The portion about Jim acquiring a "bunch" is definitely accurate. I don't know an exact figure, but it sounded like he crates full of these things.

I can say, without a doubt, that Jim is a class act. He was very kind at the range. Knowledgeable, and seemed to care a great deal about putting out a solid product.

It makes sense that Jim's 76 model might not rise to the level of their military brethren. But, it is nice that he's able to fill a niche in the market for those who might not be able to afford many of the other MGs available. Still, once these are gone, they're gone. So, I'd imagine they'll at least hold their value.

Again, I really appreciate you providing the details on this particular MG I'd come across. Thanks!

This.

There is a countervailing example in the AA SABRE 556 upper for the M10, though - which received ATF approval. Doesn't mean ATF won't change their mind like they ended up doing with the XMG99, but the SABRE approved long after the XMG99 reversal decision.

IIRC the 7.62x54 upper for the MAC could be made to work without the m11 receiver AND tech branch then was less than favorable to us. Today we seem to have a favorable tech branch, the sabre precedent and an upper that won't ever run by itself.

I was always under the impression uppers like the shrike were allowed because they need the lower to function, without the buffer spring the BCG in the shrike would not be able to fire more than a single shot.

Whereas the XMG can fire, eject, move the belt, chamber a new round, and be fired again without the lower (or so I have read, I don't actually own one) as a result its actually a title 1 firearm, not just a upper.

Stupid ruling IMO. I would buy a MAC and one of those RPK uppers in a heart beat if they were legal.

Its the Swiss Army Knife of MGs.

To the OP buy one and save up some money (just dont shoot it )for a M16. Or sell some of your other stuff. Hard as I try one can only shoot one gun properly at a time. Eventually get an M16. They are as fun as my HKs.

Another option is a West Hurley M1 (NOT 1928) Thompson at 15K or a KAC556 at 10k ish (you can get a .22 kit).

It comes down to a matter of priorities and money management.
IMO most hard working Americans can own an M16.
The other option is to increase your value employment-wise.


I would NOT get a home equity loan UNLESS you find a killer deal OR buy something that is a surefire appreciator.
Right now I see nothing that is a surefire appreciator.
Perhaps a MAC 9 .
Funny that.

I just used the above advice OP, so it can be done.

I bought an m10/9, got all of the accessories, shot it for a while, was told of a local NIB colt m16a1 by a friend, sold the mac, bought the m16.  
The money invested in the mac makes the larger purchase not hurt as bad

Now the wait begins for the m16....that hurts though!

I still have a sten mkii to keep me company at least!

The best advice though, buy something cheap now, use it for a while, until you can get closer to what your really after.
The mac is a great keeper though, so even if you stay with it, it's great.  I only sold mine because of the local deal I couldn't pass up.

I see the entire NFA marketplace as a surefire appreciator.

I've been watching the NFA market for about 7 years now, every single year everyone sort of suggests that the prices are insane and the market is topping out.

And every year the prices notch up another few Gs.


I don't think most people appreciate how microscopic that the NFA marketplace is.

Some of these guns are so rare that they only come up for sale every 10 years.

Sometimes even the very common guns are hard to find for sale.

West Hurley Thompsons were made in the 1970s by small machine shops for a gun parts company and they are problematic.

I would avoid buying any West Hurley unless you can see it run first and it runs 100%, zero jams.

It's not tricky to tell a West Hurley from the WWII thompsons, it will say WEST HURLEY on the right side in big letters.


All of the pre-1945 guns are original Auto Ordnance production and are good to go.

Colt made the original 1920s guns, Savage and AO made the WWII guns.   They are all mil-spec and run great.

After WWII, some Thompsons were pieced together by Numrich from WWII parts, they are also good running guns.

Lage already has an approved upper that feeds from a separate mag well. Their Soumi upper.

the M11/15 upper is functionally similar enough to the approved SABRE it should be approved. It requires permanent modification to the receiver.

The problem with waiting is that registered machinegun prices will likely rise faster than you can save your pennies. The longer you wait the more they will likely cost, always being just beyond your ability to pay cash for.

I usually NEVER recommend someone borrow money to finance a gun but if you want an HK sear or M16 bad enough, you could resign yourself to driving a used KIA and take out a $30K loan for a machinegun. If you have the income stream to make monthly payments on a mid-range semi-luxury car but are willing to drive something else instead, that may be your best bet to get into the gun you want. The upside is that while a Lexus loses money the moment you drive it off the lot and will one day end up in a junk yard, a registered machinegun is an appreciating investment as long as it isn't destroyed or lost and the Government keeps the prices artificially inflated through the Hughes Amendment.


BTW- $30K is about what just an HK sear costs today. Figure another $1,000 to get it installed into a 4-pos trigger pack and then $2K to $6K for your first host gun.


I filled my MG itch years ago and ended up with several guns. I thought prices were crazy then. If I were new into the market today, I would probably look for a Powder Springs MAC 10 and a couple Lage kits in 9 and .45 to go along with it. You can probably do all that for ~$10,000.

If I was starting out, and had a smallish budget,

I would beg borrow scrape together enough money for an UZI and call it good.  "I don't like my UZI" said nobody ever in history.

If there still wasn't enough money I would buy a MAC10.  

If I had enough for an m11/9 and all the lage stuff, I would push through the barrier to UZI ville.


I liquidated a WWII gun collection to get into MGs.  Zero regrets.

I don't understand ATF's concept about them being acceptable to use with MGs only by SOTs. If it doesn't create a new MG when the SOT installs it, how can it create a new MG when an unlicensed person does so?

It still creates a new MG. But C2 SOTs are allowed to do that. Unwashed non-SOTs are not allowed to do so.

I thought they don't have to Form 2 those when they combine them. Do they?

I have no hope of accumulating that much money, so I'll settle for binary triggers. If I somehow do accumulate fuck-you money, I'd be more interested in wining-and-dining enough congressmen to make the Hughes amendment a memory.

Y'all who can afford MGs are very lucky.

I'll go ahead and speak for everyone in this thread and say (unless you were buying them in the 80's) it's not luck, it's work and sacrifices. It's driving a 10+ year old car, working overtime, and prioritizing buying a machine gun over almost everything else.

I worked something like 150 hours of overtime in a couple months to pay for most of my Sten.

Everyone who really, really wants a machine gun can afford a Mac, Sten, Reising, or MK760. Most people on this forum probably have a few ARs that they spent $3000-6000 on, when they could've bought a cheap machine gun instead.

That's a very broad generalization. Most people buy cheap ARs. Most people buy cheap everything, then it usually breaks. 

I think it depends greatly on a person's income, which varies significantly among members here. One can work their ass off while earning $11/hour and have, well not much.

While you are not wrong, it does look strange when a guy who just posted his new SCAR 17s with ELCAN SpecterDR and all the trimmings talk about how unobtainable a machinegun is.

To buy my first one, I sold a lot of my collection. I just had to make a choice: Did I want multiple ARs and a smattering of random handguns, or a full auto?

That's a valid point. Usually, though, the guy who just bought the SCAR wouldn't rather have just any "cheap" MG (or SMG). He wants a select-fire SCAR. He's griping because he can't have one (since with post-86, it isn't a question of affording). I don't blame him. I blame the government.

I think the best is to be in a position where one may buy or control post samples. It's certainly nice to have control over MGs I haven't paid for, but to me a diverse assortment is more interesting than an armory full of M16s.

If you really, really want a machine gun, you can make it happen on minimum wage if you sacrifice other things and work additional hours.

If you really, really want the impossible, well...

Not everyone can afford to lay out $6000+ on a gun.

Sure there are a lot of guys who say they can't afford an MG as they climb into their brand new F250,

but plenty of people have just enough money to get by month to month and if $6,000 came into their hand, a luxury like an MG would be number 3,127 on the list of things they need.

If you really really really really really want the MG, you can find a way.  

But most guys would use the money pay for a new sofa or their kid's braces and maybe replace a old car, stuff like that.

My father was a truck driver, he wouldn't have used $6000 to buy an MG.


On the other hand, if you really really really really want an MG, just get in there and buy one, because that $6000 gun is going to $6500 next year as a minimum.  Maybe $10,000, who knows.

This year I sold off a fair amount of my title 1's to fund a RR M16 and a RR Uzi.

I thought the pain of selling off a decades worth of semi auto purchases would sting, but truthfully it didn't.

I don't miss them terribly and they were all semi versions of a machine gun I would have preferred to have. I'd still rather have a couple MG's that I'll actually use over a safe full if semis that never got taken out.

I also was becoming a victim of the buy every accessory for the semi mentality - becoming a slave to it rather than enjoying shooting.

The only semis that I intend to keep are my SIGs, a couple that I personally built, and those that I can get a sear for later.

Next up is an AUG and Maxim, and I'm scrimping gay every penny I can set aside for them & getting ready to sell some more Title 1's

I should have done the same thing years ago when prices were better!

Amen. I sold off a number of title-1 guns two years ago in order to fund a Fleming HK sear. I already had a DLO frame, two Vector full size Uzis, Colt M16a1, Colt AR15 mod 614, and S&H sear in FNC. I fell into the title-1 semiauto black hole from 2008 until about 2011 and one day realized how much I had tied up in guns I never shot. So I sold off some SIG 551s (still have two), some LE restricted marked Colts, AUG a3, S&B 4-16 pmII, USR barrel, and a few other items. I don't miss any of them except the S&B pmII. The HK sear is already worth $8-9k more than I paid, while the items I sold are still worth what I sold them for.

Semiautos that aren't HK sear hosts are just not that interesting to me any more. Well, Swiss SIGs, B&T stuff, and high end 308 precision/battle rifles still interest me but I'm only interested in guns that I will shoot, not safe queen semiautos.

Do you have a 21 or 23 belt-fed host yet? 
Everything you listed is very nice. Most would feel poor just thinking about all the Title I firearms you named.

If you already had the DLO frame, why get a Fleming sear? You wanted ambi trigger groups?

No E host yet. And I probably won't ever buy one. $12k (MM) to $20k (all german TSC) is just too much for a title-1 semi host. I would rather buy a transferable AUG or put the money toward another transferable.

As to why I bought the fleming sear after already having a DLO frame, it was too good a deal to pass up. And why not have two HK conversion devices?

As somebody who has both a transferable AUG and a HK E host, I would probably go for the E host over the AUG if you don't already own a belt-fed and I really like my AUG.

If you have two Uzi's and two M16s, I would consider letting go of an Uzi to fund a MM E host gun and swapping out an M16 to get an AUG sear.

That would then give you an Uzi, AUG, and M16 as subgun platforms, an M16, AUG, and FNC has rifle platforms, and two HK sear/boxes to run as a mix of subguns, rifles, and a beltfed.

I would keep both the HK sear and box as you can never have too many HKs conversions as they are so versatile.

Watch out for that JoshNC guy. A few conversations with him and you'll be buying all kinds of fun stuff! And Josh doesn't really need his own E host since he can shoot mine anytime he wants.

Both FA... one postie, one tranny!



Save up and get a MP5 trigger pack.

I have considered those options, however I do not like the idea of selling transferables to fund semiautos, even if they are a badass host like the E.

I just love the AUG and will pick one up as funds permit, while keeping my other transferables. While I may sell some of my duplicates (M16 and UZI, not HK sear or frame) in the future, it will likely only be to pick up other transferables.

I make sure to do my part in coaxing my friends to buy MGs. :)

I know you already said no, but these days if you're zoned for it an SOT is the way to go. Do transfers for folks for a fair price, work some deals for a couple local PD's, and build a couple posties. When you get sick of the MG's and that's out of your system lapse the SOT and keep all of the non-post sample stuff tax free.

What?! When you get sick of the MGs? Crazy talk.

I was of the same mindset as well but ultimately gave way and traded away a spare transferable FNC sear to partially fund the E host.   I had reservations about it as well but looking back I have enjoyed shooting the E host over the past couple years way more than I would have enjoyed  a spare FNC sear sitting in an envelop in the safe.

Part of it is how much you shoot the multiples you have.  I cant imagine a scenario where I would ever bring two full size Uzi's to the range at the same time  (granted I barely ever shoot my full size Uzi).  However, on the flip side  I am somewhat of an M16 and HK whore as I have four M16s and three HK sears.  I keep toying with the idea of letting an M16 go to fund some other machineguns I don't have.  Maybe an FAL plus a M2 Carbine or Sten, or upgrading to a Colt M16A2.  I have even considering picking up another E host so I can dedicate a shorty as a 23ek and a full size as a 21e.

Either way you certainly cant go wrong with the AUG sear or E Host, both more fun than you can shake a stick at.

If I sold anything it would be my second M16 and UZI. I like having two HK conversion devices in order to have multiple different HKs at the range. I REALLY want a E host. A good friend has one, so I will scratch my itch shooting his on occasion for the time being.  And I'll ultimately likely buy one, but I think if/when I do it will be a full German built by TSC. Then again I would love an M60E6 too.

My ongoing short list includes a M60E4 or E6, Swedish K, WWII 28 Thompson, AUG, E host, 53 host, 33k host, mp5sd host. I would also love a Colt M16A2 factory 733 Commando, Colt 653, and a M16A1 marked Colt (my a1 is marked "M16").

I like the cut of your jib....that is a solid list which pretty much mirrors almost exactly what I have gone after.   Only difference is I bought a factory Smith 76 vs. a kit based K or Port Said.  My current 53 is a Vector clone but have considered an all German 53 build and maybe swapping out/upgrading one of my M16s for an A2.

The E4 and E6 guns are really nice as well and if you have the fund I highly recommend a 60.   My personal 60 is an E4 (as the E6 didn't exist when I got my 60). I have not noticed enough difference between the E4 and E6 to make the  upgrade worth it for me at this point, but if buying new to you,  might as well get the latest/greatest.