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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:17:15 PM EDT
I'm looking at investing some of my cash (about 7G) into a MG with the intent on selling in 5 years for college tuition for my daughter. The gun will see some, but probably little use as there aren't any places to shoot it where I live. Assuming good condition, registered receivers, which is the better investment?

For that money is there another, better choice in terms of investment?
Link Posted: 2/13/2012 7:10:52 PM EDT
I love my UZI's However NFA isn't really a good investment, buy it because you want it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2012 7:15:19 PM EDT
UZI
Link Posted: 2/13/2012 8:57:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2012 9:10:02 PM EDT by Homeinvader]
Transferable Uzis have increased in value from about $5000 to $7000 on average, problem is it's taken about 10 years to do that. Most MGs have made a similar percentage move in that time, so if you are "investing" for 5 years only, then historically you will be lucky to see any return at all, let alone college tuition money.

Unfortunately, it really takes legislation to make modern firearms increase in value dramatically and in a short time. And you just cannot predict this type of thing. The only NFA related legislation on the horizon is the Veteran's Heritage Protection Act, which, if it passes, will increase the MG supply somewhat and more likely make MGs drop in value.

Get a good 529 account and park then money there if you are trying to put your kid through college. You may even get a tax deduction in your state. Machine guns are not the way.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:08:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 12:33:11 PM EDT by TARFU]
Let me clarify. I am investing in many areas, this being the least. Basicallly, considering the cost of the MG, sales tax, and tax stamp, I will be happy just to get my money back in 5 years while I get to play with the MG. I just don't want to lose money or have a hard time selling the MG when I need the money. Thats why I want to select the right one.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 5:51:22 AM EDT
given your choices, I'd say Uzi.
one of the bigger draws to the ac556 was the fact that it still had factory support/repair up until recently. now Ruger is more/less out of parts and cant often fix whatever the issue is. so the "value" (maybe desireability is a better word) of the ac has come down a little bit and one could argue, will continue to do so a little bit more as time progresses and the last of the ac parts at ruger go away.
the Uzi doesnt have that problem.

YMMV and IMHO
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 6:12:35 AM EDT
I didn't buy any of my MG's for investing as they are too much fun for me to consider selling. However if you are sure that this is the route you want to take I'd look for a Vector RR or a properly converted IMI RR. Parts are easily available and the UZI is a pretty versatile gun with readily available caliber conversions.

AC556 are nice guns, but with no more factory service and less available parts I don't see them increasing in value as much as an UZI.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 7:20:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 7:22:11 AM EDT by cyborg543]
Get both.

These guys who say that NFA guns aren't a good investment are full of crap.

The economy is in a near depression and the price of all collectables is down, yet NFA guns are hanging steady.

$6500 isn't enough money to worry about anyway, that's what most people throw away in car payments in 8 or 10 months.

A lot of people spend $1500 a month on shitty takeout food.

Given the choice between the two, I would get the UZI, a Vector UZI.

The AC556 is always going to be seen as a bad Ruger plinker and the UZI will always be seen as the king uber-commando gun.

Also, the UZI is a lot easier to find a place to shoot and can actually be suppressed pretty well.






Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:35:58 AM EDT



if you are *just* looking into investing, why not look for a more commonly available investment instrument, that isn't severely regulated, doesn't require paperwork that takes significant portions of a year to approve, can't be regulate away easily, and won't diminish the pool of MG's for people who actually want to own them to SHOOT...?

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:48:55 AM EDT
If I understand the OP correctly, he's just looking to diversify a small portion of portfolio into MG's, not count on big gains in value to pay for college, but happily accept them if they come as long as the downside is limited.

Personally, I think MG's are at the very least a decent store of value (presuming no change in legislative status), even if they don't appreciate when adjusted for inflation. Too many folks look at the dollar as a constant, and think that as long as they sell it for more than they paid, they "made money". This ignores the time value of money, and selling a gun for $1k more after a couple years of ownership is very different than selling it for $1k more after owning it for 10 years or more. College costs are

Given both historic inflation and current inflationary pressures created by the Fed printing dough by the truckload with little behind it but "full faith and credit"...a dollar is FAR from a freaking constant, IMHO. I dunno if we wind up like post WWI Weimar Germany, literally toting a wheelbarrow full of dollars to swap for a loaf of break...or if we somehow find a way out of this shit. Either way, I certainly think it prudent to have at least a portion of assets in harder goods instead of paper or electronic ones. I wouldn't go all-in on ANY asset class, including the one that I enjoy most (MG's)...I'm not trying to be 100% right in investing, but instead avoid any chance of being 100% WRONG.

YMMV. College costs are rising far faster than most other goods and services; for example, if the cost of college tuition was $10,000 in 1986, it would now cost the same student over $21,500 if education had increased as much as the average inflation rate but instead education is $59,800 or over 2 ½ times the inflation rate. MG appreciation isn't likely to approach that, but I believe it surely has a better upside than f'ing CD's currently paying 0.75%...
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:42:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mtnvalley3:
If I understand the OP correctly, he's just looking to diversify a small portion of portfolio into MG's, not count on big gains in value to pay for college, but happily accept them if they come as long as the downside is limited.

Personally, I think MG's are at the very least a decent store of value (presuming no change in legislative status), even if they don't appreciate when adjusted for inflation. Too many folks look at the dollar as a constant, and think that as long as they sell it for more than they paid, they "made money". This ignores the time value of money, and selling a gun for $1k more after a couple years of ownership is very different than selling it for $1k more after owning it for 10 years or more. College costs are

Given both historic inflation and current inflationary pressures created by the Fed printing dough by the truckload with little behind it but "full faith and credit"...a dollar is FAR from a freaking constant, IMHO. I dunno if we wind up like post WWI Weimar Germany, literally toting a wheelbarrow full of dollars to swap for a loaf of break...or if we somehow find a way out of this shit. Either way, I certainly think it prudent to have at least a portion of assets in harder goods instead of paper or electronic ones. I wouldn't go all-in on ANY asset class, including the one that I enjoy most (MG's)...I'm not trying to be 100% right in investing, but instead avoid any chance of being 100% WRONG.

YMMV. College costs are rising far faster than most other goods and services; for example, if the cost of college tuition was $10,000 in 1986, it would now cost the same student over $21,500 if education had increased as much as the average inflation rate but instead education is $59,800 or over 2 ½ times the inflation rate. MG appreciation isn't likely to approach that, but I believe it surely has a better upside than f'ing CD's currently paying 0.75%...



You understand me correctly. I have some left over funds that I don't want to blow. If I break even in 5 years , I don't consider it a loss because I got to enjoy it, but I want to be able to liquidate it easily when I want the cash. I could have a custom GAP rifle built for $5000 but would most certainly take a loss when I went to sell it, especially if its not the flavor of the month in 5 years time. And, you can't shoot a CD.

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:50:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 12:51:27 PM EDT by Ad263210]
Given what you want, either will be a solid choice for an investment (as in it will at least retain its value). Have you considered a FNC? They are a little more in price but a measurable (in my opinion) step up in quality to the ac556. Also, despite what forums will say about the FNC, the parts that do break (firing pins) are for sale at DS arms.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 1:29:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ad263210:
Given what you want, either will be a solid choice for an investment (as in it will at least retain its value). Have you considered a FNC? They are a little more in price but a measurable (in my opinion) step up in quality to the ac556. Also, despite what forums will say about the FNC, the parts that do break (firing pins) are for sale at DS arms.


Not the first time I've been recommended the FNC but I never see them for sale.

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 1:40:08 PM EDT
I see them on sturm as well as subguns often. Once you narrow down what you want, I suggest you put up a WTB on one of the sites to gauge what people are willing to sell them for.

As for the FNC, it is a real nice gun at a fantastic price (especially considering what ar180's go for).
Link Posted: 2/15/2012 9:48:16 AM EDT
UZI hands down. The AC556 parts are growing more scarce, from everything I've heard, and an UZI will always move. EVERYBODY knows what an UZI is, even people who've never held a gun. Plus, you can buy the conversions, mags, parts, just about anywhere.
Link Posted: 2/15/2012 9:48:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ad263210:
I see them on sturm as well as subguns often. Once you narrow down what you want, I suggest you put up a WTB on one of the sites to gauge what people are willing to sell them for.

As for the FNC, it is a real nice gun at a fantastic price (especially considering what ar180's go for).


FNCs sell for between $2600 to $3500 semi auto, depending, and $6500 to $7500 full auto

the sears run between $2800 to $3300

the hot setup for the fnc is the Howco imported 16" law enforcement model, you'd pay $3200 minimum for that

sear installation is $600


that being said, get the UZI for your 1st FA gun
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:28:05 AM EDT
Uzi hands down.

22LR kit and a suppressor.

CP
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 4:13:51 PM EDT
If you intend to someday sell your MG buy the AC556. You'll do fine when you sell it after a few years. Selling it won't bother you b/c you'll need the cash to put towards an M16.

If you intend to keep your MG get the Uzi. You'll do fine when you sell it after a few years. Problem is: selling it will bother you...........alot. Which means you'll find some excuse to liquidate something else (like an AC556).

Sam
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 6:12:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 6:14:25 AM EDT by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By Samuel_Hoggson:
If you intend to someday sell your MG buy the AC556. You'll do fine when you sell it after a few years. Selling it won't bother you b/c you'll need the cash to put towards an M16.

If you intend to keep your MG get the Uzi. You'll do fine when you sell it after a few years. Problem is: selling it will bother you...........alot. Which means you'll find some excuse to liquidate something else (like an AC556).

Sam


The two basic food groups of an FA collection are a 9mm SMG bullet hose and a 223 assault rifle

The gold standard of the bullet hoses is a registered receiver UZI.

The gold standard of the 223 assault rifles is the M16.

A guy who bought those two guns would be very unlikely to sell them in order to get better "shooters"

But.....

As far as an investment goes, you want to buy something that is currently overlooked and undervalued.

the MACs are a truly modular gun and they are chewing the ass out of the bullet hose world.

The AC556 and the FNC are going to be swept along in the wake of the M16 tornado.

The explosion of aftermarket goodies for the MACs was doubtlessly kicked off by the nosebleed prices of UZIs.

What do you think the price of AC556 and FNCs is going to be when M16s are selling for $25K? Think you'll find a FNC FA sear for $2800 like you can now?


Aside from all that, i would suggest that the OP get the UZI, you know he's going to end up shooting the piss out of his only FA.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 12:03:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
The AC556 and the FNC are going to be swept along in the wake of the M16 tornado.

The explosion of aftermarket goodies for the MACs was doubtlessly kicked off by the nosebleed prices of UZIs.

What do you think the price of AC556 and FNCs is going to be when M16s are selling for $25K? Think you'll find a FNC FA sear for $2800 like you can now?


Agree completely. And that's exactly the point I was making. Nothing "wrong" with a FNC or AC. OP will do OK with any of them b/c, as you say, they will be swept upward. But he will not want to sell a 16 or Uzi. Heck, I have two of each and no intention of selling any.

Sam

Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:57:03 PM EDT
problem is liquidity and the transfer costs. 5 years just isn't much of a timeframe.

But by far, the Uzi. 100 years from now people will still now what an Uzi is. Unless A-Team reruns make a huge comeback, Minis not so much. Just get a properly converted Uzi or a Vector.
Link Posted: 2/18/2012 3:42:54 AM EDT
I say Uzi even though I sold the uzi after I got MP5 and MP5K, oh the sickness, I still miss every machine gun I have sold.
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 1:05:26 PM EDT
UZI, Here's Mine. A full auto/Select Fire Vector.

Link Posted: 2/19/2012 1:07:39 PM EDT
If you go with an UZI, Make darn sure it's either a Vector or a Registered Receiver IMI. There are a lot of Registered "Bolt" guns out there that probably should be avoided.
Link Posted: 2/20/2012 9:20:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2012 9:21:49 AM EDT by cyborg543]
I think maybe the hottest gun right now price wise is the M11/9

The new lage uppers are pumping the price up

Link Posted: 2/20/2012 9:29:08 AM EDT
If you're looking to invest, check out www.machinegunpriceguide.com

Link Posted: 2/20/2012 9:39:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By regalgseguy:
There are a lot of Registered "Bolt" guns out there that probably should be avoided.

Why would you say that, assuming they are priced appropriately (several thousand less)? The "registered receiver" guns married to a slotted bolt are another issue.
Link Posted: 2/20/2012 10:35:51 AM EDT
Nothing wrong with a bolt gun as long as you realize it's one caliber only. Bolt can be used in a lower cost host gun if desired.
Link Posted: 2/21/2012 11:21:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Transferable Uzis have increased in value from about $5000 to $7000 on average, problem is it's taken about 10 years to do that. Most MGs have made a similar percentage move in that time, so if you are "investing" for 5 years only, then historically you will be lucky to see any return at all, let alone college tuition money.

Unfortunately, it really takes legislation to make modern firearms increase in value dramatically and in a short time. And you just cannot predict this type of thing. The only NFA related legislation on the horizon is the Veteran's Heritage Protection Act, which, if it passes, will increase the MG supply somewhat and more likely make MGs drop in value.

Get a good 529 account and park then money there if you are trying to put your kid through college. You may even get a tax deduction in your state. Machine guns are not the way.


My sons 529c has actually lost 10% over the past 4 years. I dont think you will lose that on an UZI. Get the UZI.
Link Posted: 2/21/2012 2:09:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2012 8:16:58 AM EDT by tony_k]
Link Posted: 2/24/2012 6:28:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2012 1:35:46 PM EDT by cyborg543]
If I absolutely had to invest a large amount of money in guns, I would lean towards buying a big fat shitpile of FNC sears.

You could store them in a jar in your garage, no thief would bother with them, they look like a can opener you hang with your dog tags.

Every single time the FNC is mentioned, everybody screeches like a hairdresser about how there's no spare parts, but as MG prices creep and creep upwards, I'll wager that the spare part thing will resolve itself.

What part on the FNC could not be CNCed or just bent out of sheet metal? Not to mention the giant factory in Indonesia churning out parts this very day.

Or, if it came down to it, the occasional semi-auto FNC would have to get parted out.

The way you make money on speculating, is to buy something that everyone else things is worthless. And then sell it when everyone changes their mind.

What item is presently selling for jack shit on the FA market?

You might wonder why I'm sharing my crystal ball gazing with everyone, not keeping lid on this amazing uber-wisdom.

Well, I already posted a thread in the general discussion forum, about how the FNC is overlooked, and everyone bagged on me like I was promoting Obama for the supreme court. Everyone has it firmly fixed in their mind that the FNC is too uncommon to generate a lot of interest or an aftermarket.


As far as the OP goes, we all know perfectly well that the guy is going to buy the gun, shoot it once, get hooked and keep it forever, so he should get the UZI as his starter gun. Or the prime alternative, a MAC and some Lage stuff.

Link Posted: 2/24/2012 2:55:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2012 2:55:51 PM EDT by TARFU]
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
If I absolutely had to invest a large amount of money in guns, I would lean towards buying a big fat shitpile of FNC sears.

You could store them in a jar in your garage, no thief would bother with them, they look like a can opener you hang with your dog tags.

Every single time the FNC is mentioned, everybody screeches like a hairdresser about how there's no spare parts, but as MG prices creep and creep upwards, I'll wager that the spare part thing will resolve itself.

What part on the FNC could not be CNCed or just bent out of sheet metal? Not to mention the giant factory in Indonesia churning out parts this very day.

Or, if it came down to it, the occasional semi-auto FNC would have to get parted out.

The way you make money on speculating, is to buy something that everyone else things is worthless. And then sell it when everyone changes their mind.

What item is presently selling for jack shit on the FA market?

You might wonder why I'm sharing my crystal ball gazing with everyone, not keeping lid on this amazing uber-wisdom.

Well, I already posted a thread in the general discussion forum, about how the FNC is overlooked, and everyone bagged on me like I was promoting Obama for the supreme court. Everyone has it firmly fixed in their mind that the FNC is too uncommon to generate a lot of interest or an aftermarket.


As far as the OP goes, we all know perfectly well that the guy is going to buy the gun, shoot it once, get hooked and keep it forever, so he should get the UZI as his starter gun. Or the prime alternative, a MAC and some Lage stuff.



Okay, not to change the subject, but talk to me about the m11-9 and Lage upper. If I would pick up a M11 for say 3 grand and put another grand into the Lage upper, buttstock , etc. Is this now a $4000 gun at resale? Is it more desirable or will I take a beating on the upgrades 5 or so years from now if I try to sell?

Link Posted: 2/25/2012 8:34:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TARFU:
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
If I absolutely had to invest a large amount of money in guns, I would lean towards buying a big fat shitpile of FNC sears.

You could store them in a jar in your garage, no thief would bother with them, they look like a can opener you hang with your dog tags.

Every single time the FNC is mentioned, everybody screeches like a hairdresser about how there's no spare parts, but as MG prices creep and creep upwards, I'll wager that the spare part thing will resolve itself.

What part on the FNC could not be CNCed or just bent out of sheet metal? Not to mention the giant factory in Indonesia churning out parts this very day.

Or, if it came down to it, the occasional semi-auto FNC would have to get parted out.

The way you make money on speculating, is to buy something that everyone else things is worthless. And then sell it when everyone changes their mind.

What item is presently selling for jack shit on the FA market?

You might wonder why I'm sharing my crystal ball gazing with everyone, not keeping lid on this amazing uber-wisdom.

Well, I already posted a thread in the general discussion forum, about how the FNC is overlooked, and everyone bagged on me like I was promoting Obama for the supreme court. Everyone has it firmly fixed in their mind that the FNC is too uncommon to generate a lot of interest or an aftermarket.


As far as the OP goes, we all know perfectly well that the guy is going to buy the gun, shoot it once, get hooked and keep it forever, so he should get the UZI as his starter gun. Or the prime alternative, a MAC and some Lage stuff.



Okay, not to change the subject, but talk to me about the m11-9 and Lage upper. If I would pick up a M11 for say 3 grand and put another grand into the Lage upper, buttstock , etc. Is this now a $4000 gun at resale? Is it more desirable or will I take a beating on the upgrades 5 or so years from now if I try to sell?




If you bought an M11/9 for an excellent price and put a Lage upper on it, you'd probably make a small amount of money of the M11/9 and lose some on the Lage accessories.

M11/9s are highly desired nowadays, but there are tons of them out there, many NIB.

Nobody is going to pay full price for accessories when they can pick up the phone and buy them brand new.

It seems to me that you are just wanting to get into the NFA game, but you're going to need the money in a couple of years for your kid's school.

Why don't you just buy a MAC M10/9 in 9mm for around $3K and just shoot it in stock form. You can send it to Practical Solutions and have an UZI magwell put on, and then you can use $10 awesome quality military surplus UZI mags.

You could probably get that whole deal done for $3K or so, and then you'd be in cheap enought that you wouldn't have to sell in the future.

The reason i'm sugegesting the 9mm MAC is because it's completely excellent in stock form. It's like this tank that just runs and runs like a sewing machine, and it's actually extremely accurate.

The reason i'm suggesting the UZI gripwell is because the original production 9mm macs take a very expensive walther mag, and the late production ones use that zytel/PAM2 mag that i personally hate.

But the UZI magwell only costs $300 and the UZI mags fit it exactly and work perfectly.

Buy your $3,000 M10/9 and put the rest in CDs or whatever.

Another option, get a 45 caliber MAC 10. But only if you reload.

If you use the shoulder stock, the M10 becomes like a little tiny version of an UZI, you'll be amazed how accurate and fun it is.


The M11/9 isn't really that great in stock form, don't get it without the Lage stuff.
Link Posted: 2/25/2012 11:39:54 AM EDT
Cyborg, I'm a little confused and just learning SMG's. Is the 9mm MAC a different gun from the M11-9?

If the MAC 10 in .45 is a good buy, my Dillon SD-B is already set up for that.
Link Posted: 2/25/2012 11:48:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TARFU:
Cyborg, I'm a little confused and just learning SMG's. Is the 9mm MAC a different gun from the M11-9?

If the MAC 10 in .45 is a good buy, my Dillon SD-B is already set up for that.

There is a chart some where but.

Mac 11a1 is 380 Very small
Mac 11 is 9mm Small
Mac 10 is 9 or 45 and large frame
Link Posted: 2/25/2012 1:52:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2012 2:25:57 PM EDT by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By TARFU:
Cyborg, I'm a little confused and just learning SMG's. Is the 9mm MAC a different gun from the M11-9?

If the MAC 10 in .45 is a good buy, my Dillon SD-B is already set up for that.



The UZI is a classic 1950's 9mm sheet metal compact submachine gun that weights about 7 lbs.

The MAC M10/45 is a tank-like 1970s 45 cal machine pistol that's about the same size as a S&W 6" 44 mag and weighs about 7 lbs. It takes slightly modified grease gun mags.

The MAC M10/9 is just a 9mm version of the M10/45. It takes expensive walther MPL mags.

The MAC M11/380 is a tiny scaled-down 380 caliber version of the M10/45, it's not too common.


In the 1980s, a company called SWD started making MACs, they made all the original MAC models, but they also took the M11/380 and re-designed it, extended the ass end of the gun so it can fire 9mm. They called it the M11/Nine.

The M11/Nine is not a particularly good gun, it shoots at an insane rate of fire and is not anywhere near as sturdy as the orginal MACs. BUT, the M11/9 lower is very lightweight and small, so it's ideal to stick an aftermarket upper on.

That's the gun that the current awesome aftermarket uppers are mostly designed for.

Also, since the M11/Nine was too narrow to use the original 9mm MPL double feed mags, SWD came out with a shitty single feed zytel plastic mag. That magazine sucks ass, but Argentina made a copy of the 9mm MAC called the PAM2. Modified steel PAM2 mags work great in the M11/Nine, so that pretty much takes care of that problem.

Back when Sten mags were like $1 each, some guys were having sten mag wells (grips) put on their M11/nine. That's not really worth it now.

Regarding the M10s -

Getting mags for the 45 version is not a proble, they are just grease gun mags.

Since the 9mm walther MPL mags are $120 each, some guys get an UZI grip put on their 9mm MAC M10. I did this, it works incredibly well.

One more thing - if you swap a 9mm M10 upper onto the 45 M10, you can shoot 9mm if you stick this 9mm insert thingy into the mag well so it will take the 9mm magazine. That does not always work so great, people seem to have trouble with it.


The nice thing about the MAC M10 is that when you extend the stock, it stops being a machine pistol and realy seems like a compact SMG. You can shoot it very accurately like that, keep the whole magazine on a paper plate at 25 yards. So the gun is entirely fun and useful in stock form.

The M11/Nine, on the other hand, is kind of this crazy little turd and it needs the Lage upper on it.


You can also get Lage uppers for the M10, but the end product gets pretty heavy, 10 lbs, so most guys looking to Lage their MAC get the M11/nine.


One more thing - SWD built some of heir M10/9s to take the single feed zytel magazine, but you can cure than by just getting a double feed bolt, because the zytel has the same exact exterior dimensions as the MPL mag. Or, actually, you could just use the PAM2 mags in it.

Confused yet?

Go over to uzitalk.com, and do a search for "MAC magazine summary", the thread spells the whole thing out in detail.

In my humble opinion, if you want to keep your costs to an absolute minimum, I would go with a stock 45 ACP M10 or a 9mm M10 with the UZI magwell on it. If you do a good job shopping for it, you won't lose a dime no matter what and the gun is 100% reliable and fun to shoot.

I'm seeing M10s in excellent shape selling pretty often for under $3K, on a form 3. it's really hard to beat that value.

Your finger will fall off before you wear out a M10, the sheet metal is like 0.15 inches thick. It's overbuilt.

Hope this helps a bit. Probably cruising uzitalk would help also, be aware that there is vast piles of retarded gunshop BS out there on the MACs, people seem to take huge joy in spreading weird misinformation about them.



Link Posted: 2/25/2012 2:25:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TARFU:
Cyborg, I'm a little confused and just learning SMG's. Is the 9mm MAC a different gun from the M11-9?

If the MAC 10 in .45 is a good buy, my Dillon SD-B is already set up for that.


If you're a 45 acp fan, maybe you should just opt for the M10 in 45.

A couple of years ago i decided to get off my ass and get a MG before the prices went completely insane.

So i thought about what I wanted to actually get so long that I got tired of thinking about it.

Then I just decided to get the absolutely cheapest gun I possibly could and bought a 9mm MAC 10.

I got the 9mm because its cheap ammo.

As soon as I finally had it in my hands I realized that a.) It's a very well designed gun, and b.) it's an all out pisser to shoot, and c.) it is remarkably accurate.

Don't worry about the high rate of fire, you can pull doubles and triples with ease.

Everybody is different, but I really truly enjoy my M10.
Link Posted: 2/25/2012 2:27:53 PM EDT
Thanks. The class 3 dealer I am working with is supposed to have the Uzi coming in but I believe there are pricing issues with the seller, so nothing yet. He asked me if I was interested in anything else, maybe I'll have him add a MAC 10 to the list.
Link Posted: 2/25/2012 5:47:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TARFU:
Thanks. The class 3 dealer I am working with is supposed to have the Uzi coming in but I believe there are pricing issues with the seller, so nothing yet. He asked me if I was interested in anything else, maybe I'll have him add a MAC 10 to the list.


You really going to sell your new burp gun in 5 years?

I don't see it happening. You're going to get hooked.

I have been shooting since I was tiny child in the 1960's and I'm telling you that this tiny mass produced sheet metal bullet hose is my favorite gun that I've ever owned.

As soon as you have it in hand you'll be shopping for a suppressor. In fact you might as well just get the suppressor right now, submit both the stamps now.

The Bowers CAC is a good one for the price, YMMV.
Link Posted: 2/25/2012 6:28:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
You really going to sell your new burp gun in 5 years?

I don't see it happening. You're going to get hooked.

I have been shooting since I was tiny child in the 1960's and I'm telling you that this tiny mass produced sheet metal bullet hose is my favorite gun that I've ever owned.

As soon as you have it in hand you'll be shopping for a suppressor. In fact you might as well just get the suppressor right now, submit both the stamps now.

The Bowers CAC is a good one for the price, YMMV.

Listen to the man, he knows of what he speaks. I don't even have my paperwork for my first MG back from the ATF yet and I bought others in the meanwhile. It's a sickness I tell you!

Link Posted: 2/27/2012 8:47:55 PM EDT
Don't buy it as an investment. That is why the guns cost so damn much. People like you hold on to them forever till the market is so dry the price skyrockets which royally fucks everyone else in the ass. Collectors have ruined the market.
Link Posted: 2/28/2012 5:29:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bowen1911:
Don't buy it as an investment. That is why the guns cost so damn much. People like you hold on to them forever till the market is so dry the price skyrockets which royally fucks everyone else in the ass. Collectors have ruined the market.


I don't know about all that.

Your typical MAC / UZI / M16 are all "shooters", not collector items.

Gun collecting is basically collecting guns as historical artifacts because of their association with a colorful historical period or event.

A 1930's Thompson SMG has legit collector status, a 1981 UZI that was converted to FA has virtually no "collector" status at all, it's literally worthless from a collector standpoint.

If the NFA registry opened, in a single day your well-used 1977 M16A1 would go from a $15,000 gun to a $600 gun.

The thing driving the NFA market is the fact that there are hardly any guns in the registry, relatively speaking.

How many M16A2s are there in the registry? Something like 2,000. That is a joke.
Link Posted: 2/28/2012 6:37:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/28/2012 12:40:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/29/2012 5:56:45 AM EDT by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By tony_k:
cyborg, I agree with you on all counts, except perhaps this one:

Originally Posted By cyborg543:
If the NFA registry opened, in a single day your well-used 1977 M16A1 would go from a $15,000 gun to a $600 gun.


Conversion RRs will drop to $600. But factory Colt firearms, even the well-used ones, hold their value well –– doesn't matter whether it's an M16, a Single-Action Army, or a 1911.

If 922(o) were overturned, Colt might (or might not, given their traditional consistently no-MG-sales-to-civilians stance) start selling M16s to us. But the new MGs would be M4s or A2s, not M16A1s.

And the Colt M16A1 is special to a lot of folk, particularly those who carried them in Vietnam. They will always carry a premium, and a fairly substantial one at that; minty M16As, and examples of the more rare variations, will retain their collector status and their collector prices.

If anything, the now-top-of-the-transferable-heap pre-'86 factory A2s will drop, because you will be able to buy a brand new one. But unless Colt goes into business with Nodak Spud, there will be no more new M16A1s.

At least, that's my take from a half-century of buying (or passing on buying) guns. Your Mileage May Vary.




I see your point. There are always a certain hardcore group of collectors for any gun that has any noteworthy qualities, especially USGI military weapons by a historic US maker.

Even lesser known but unusual guns like COP derringers have a hardcore collector following, they sell for up to $1500 NIB.

I would expect the collector market for M16s to be way less brisk and less pricey than WWII collector prices. Suppose the NFA went away and guys were buying and selling WWII thompsons for $5,000 or whatever, I would expect M16s to go for somewhat less.

When people buy collector stuff, they are buying an old gun + their feelings about history. I don't know how much people's feeling about VN era and later guns is going to pump the price on those guns. If you look at the collector prices on semi-auto guns, say Colt 1911s, the WWII Colts are going to blow everything else out of the water.


I don't think the NFA registry will ever open anyway, the mass public support isn't there, no politician is going to go down in flames for it, even the NRA doesn't say a single peep about it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2012 6:47:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
*snip*

Every single time the FNC is mentioned, everybody screeches like a hairdresser about how there's no spare parts, but as MG prices creep and creep upwards, I'll wager that the spare part thing will resolve itself.

*snip*


agreed. it's only a matter of time until someone starts scrapping their FNC's or AK5's. some enterprising individual in the states will buy up the parts kits, import them, and make a killing selling them off here. and when that happens, the price of FNC's will explode.

Link Posted: 3/1/2012 11:25:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bullyforyou:
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
*snip*

Every single time the FNC is mentioned, everybody screeches like a hairdresser about how there's no spare parts, but as MG prices creep and creep upwards, I'll wager that the spare part thing will resolve itself.

*snip*


agreed. it's only a matter of time until someone starts scrapping their FNC's or AK5's. some enterprising individual in the states will buy up the parts kits, import them, and make a killing selling them off here. and when that happens, the price of FNC's will explode.



I had a similar thought. Ironically, the death of the FNC as a military arm abroad will be the birth of it here, just as was the case with the FAL and G3.
Link Posted: 3/4/2012 10:41:16 AM EDT
the way they control FNC parts, I wouldn't hold your breath for parts to every become widely available, at least not on the same scale as surplus FAL parts. But then again, given how few FNCs there are in the country to begin with, if someone could bring over a couple hundred kits, that would be a huge increase in part availability.

What we really need is some LE dept to convince ATF that they just have to have new PINDAD FNCs and a bunch of spares to go along with them.

As far as M16A1s, if new MGs ever became available (highly unlikely) with no additional taxes or fees, at best M16A1s might be double or triple the cost of new M4s.

Now, slightly less unlikely are new MGs with some additional tax. Think of the current excise tax set to many times the cost of a new MG. In that scenario pre 86 guns may hold the majority of their value. This last scenario is the only way I can ever imagine MGs will be newly mfg. Think how hard it would be for some politician to defend making $500 to $1000 MGs guns legal again. But if they attach a tax of $5k tax to a newly mfg Colt, well most voters would have bigger things to worry about.

Really sad thing, I and most people on this forum would jump at the opportunity to buy a new $6k Colt M4.
Link Posted: 3/5/2012 6:07:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2012 2:26:50 PM EDT by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
the way they control FNC parts, I wouldn't hold your breath for parts to every become widely available, at least not on the same scale as surplus FAL parts. But then again, given how few FNCs there are in the country to begin with, if someone could bring over a couple hundred kits, that would be a huge increase in part availability.

What we really need is some LE dept to convince ATF that they just have to have new PINDAD FNCs and a bunch of spares to go along with them.

As far as M16A1s, if new MGs ever became available (highly unlikely) with no additional taxes or fees, at best M16A1s might be double or triple the cost of new M4s.

Now, slightly less unlikely are new MGs with some additional tax. Think of the current excise tax set to many times the cost of a new MG. In that scenario pre 86 guns may hold the majority of their value. This last scenario is the only way I can ever imagine MGs will be newly mfg. Think how hard it would be for some politician to defend making $500 to $1000 MGs guns legal again. But if they attach a tax of $5k tax to a newly mfg Colt, well most voters would have bigger things to worry about.

Really sad thing, I and most people on this forum would jump at the opportunity to buy a new $6k Colt M4.


How do you figure that it is sad?

We're not talking about gun collectors here. We are talking about shooters, pure and simple. Guys who are willing to pay a 90% premium on a used 25 year old firearm because it has a legal happy switch on the side.

From a collecting standpoint, most of these guns are pure crap. Compare a 1936 Luger to a 1984 UZI conversion, they are not even on the same planet from a collecting standpoint.

Collectors might cherish a 1931 Thompson, but I'm not expecting anyone to be too emotionally attached to a 1982 Colt M16.

Not to grind the point too hard, but what collector value do any non-NFA guns have from the 1970's and 1980's? There are certain wierd guns like the COP derringer that have their own little sub-culture of collectors, but in general, commercial guns from the 1970s and 80s don't really have much collector value.

That's just my 0.02.
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