Good to know. Thanks!

I'm still curious if there's anything definitive showing that SilencerShop's precedure adds to the overall time involved in the process. So far we only have anecdotal evidence supporting both sides of the claim.

Obviously YMMV, but here is the SS service benefit to somone in my situation: I live more than 30 miles one way (so 60+ miles round trip) from anyone who can roll my prints and take photos for a submission. I used the SS kiosk for one submission then my subsequent four or five I’ve done in the last year didn’t require me to do anything other than place the order online and electronically sign the form within a day or two. I realize I might have lost a few weeks receiving my cans but the convenience was worth it to me.

My experience with SS and the form 1 process.

I been dealing with the Silencer Shop from way back when they operated out of their garage, up to today.

Their form4 service is not the fastest way to submit forms. But the 2 SOT's I use are both powered by with a kiosk.
So it's the only way they do things these days. The old way with me mailing in my own papers, prints, pictures, check has always been faster then SS.
But SS does make it easy, and that's why the SOT's both use the service.

So, fast forward to my first Form1 I just completed through SS. It was a hassle from the start.
All my mail goes to my PO box. SS has both address in their system from our prior business transactions.

Box 3b on the form1 is where your address goes. The instruction clearly state right on the form1 if the above is a PO box, street address must be given in box 3c

First form to docusign has street address in box 3b. Called and explained that is not correct. Person I talked to said it would be corrected.
Next 2 forms to sign, same problem. Called back each time. The last time the girl answering my call said she didn't know what their problem in back was, as both of my address are in the system.
She corrected the form while I was talking to her, and assured me the next docusign would be correct. Finally on the 4th try they got it right.

I'll go back to the old way if I ever do another form1.

The SS form1 has not been mailed as of today.

haven't used it, but sounds fair for saving 3-5 hours of bullshit doing it all yourself...  if I time it right in Phoenix, those 3-5 weeks are during the summer so who cares.

SilenserShop has definitely made the process as simple as can be. Once you're in their system, just buy the stamp online, DocuSign, and you're done!

So far it has been well documented that the checks sent by SilencerShop can take anywhere from 1 to 5 weeks to be cashed. What remains to be seen is whether that really affects the overall approval time or not.

Based on a quick review of the Post-41F GROUP THERAPY (time pending) thread, I couldn't see any real difference in the approval times. Form 4s all seem to be in the 6-7 month range, and Form 1s seem to be around 4 months!

Would anybody be willing to parse through the data submitted in that thread, and see if there is any correlation between "check cashed" date and "approved" date?

Based on what BigWaylon said regarding the ATF not getting the paperwork until the check has been cashed, it would make sense that all SilencerShop submittals would add 1+ month to the approval date, but I'm just not seeing it yet.

Perhaps an easier question would be whether anyone sending in their own check has had a Form 4 approval time of less than 6 months. Who holds the record for fastest approval time?

*Edit*

I took the time to look over the last few pages of the "Time Pending" thread, and the lead time seems pretty consistent at around 6 months from the date the check was cashed. It definitely looks like the delay in cashing the checks could be affecting the approval time, but not everyone included the same information in their posts, so it's hard to say for sure.

In my experience (~12  Form 1 & Form 4s over the past year) the ATF is extremely reliable in cashing the check.

All of my applications I have sent in the check has been cashed between 5 and 10 days from the day I drop the application packet in the mail.

The NFA branch then doesn't have any visibility to the application for between 30 and 60 days.  So if you call them after the check is cashed but prior to 60 days after check cashing, the application may not be in the system yet.  The longer you wait to call the greater the odds the application is in the system.

Once the application hits the system the pending date then seem to "back date" to within a couple days of check cashing.    So you could see the check cash on February 1st, call them on March 15th and the application still won't be in the system.   Call them back on April 15th and the application will then be in the system but the pending date will back-date to between January 28th and February 3rd.

My approval experience and all of my conversations with the NFA branch indicate that timeline is all driven off of pending date.   "Pending Date" is highly correlated to check cashing date, so the longer any dealer sits on paperwork before sending it the longer your wait will be.

I am local to Silencershop and have only bought one can from them post 41F.   I purposely had them print out the paper Form 4 in the store and I signed it and took it with me, I drove it to the transferring powered-by dealer 5 miles up the road, had them sign it, and then mailed it all myself with my own personal check, fingerprint cards, and pics.

Why did I go to this trouble?  Because I had heard about application processing delays at SS on submitting their paperwork and another local dealer here in town I bought a can also appeared to have sat on paperwork for a couple weeks after I paid for the can and I let them handle the application submittal.

On the SS F4 can, I mailed it on 3/28, check cashed on 4/4, and the pending date was 4/3, so "mailing to pending" in 6 days.

Ultimately, if you want the fastest timeline than control your own paperwork and send it in yourself.   If you want ultimately convenience and a couple days to a couple extra weeks of wait in additional to their paperwork filing charge  is worth it to you...than do the whole process through SS.  

There is no right or wrong answer.

Come on now Waylon, some of us live in or near very small communities in very rural areas. I'd have to drive 30 miles to get a lot of things done in person

I think they're saying YOU  can do the pictures and YOU can do the prints.

I doubt I have the stuff I need on hand at my house to do that.

For roughly the cost of one F1 service through SS shop you can do  virtually an unlimited number print cards in your home.

http://www.sirchie.com/porelon-reg-fingerprint-pad.html#.W05nBtJKg-U

http://www.sirchie.com/multi-mount-injection-molded-cardholder.html#.W05nTtJKg-U

Blank Print Cards are free from the ATF.

https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

The ink pad and holder pay for themselves the first use and its all gravy after that.    Personally I roll mine "in bulk" and do a dozen cards or so at a time and use them over the next 3 to 6 months or so as they are good for a minimum of a year.

I used the SS Kiosk, bought my first can mid-March and the check was cashed 4-1.  It was convenient, easy and the LGS guy helped me breeze right through it.  Do I understand correctly that I never have to go to a kiosk again and can just order cans, pay stamp & docu-sign?    

Thanks Gents, maybe I’ll give it a go myself next time, would be good to know how.

Yes

Damn, thanks, OP, I DID learn something in this thread!  

...

I am almost positive that you have to update your prints/photos once a year...or at least the photos

I used their form 1 (individual) service for an SBR project.
My part was completed on April 23
They said the check cashed May 15
I'm not sure if that is slow since 2015 was the last time I filed for a stamp.
Doesn't really matter much in this case as it is just a range toy.

On my last three stamps, I took a selfie and sized them, then printed them on regular paper (in color).  I slapped a piece of clear packing tape over it and stuck it on the Form 4s.  No issues, all approved first time go.

Based on Silencershop's own statements to me, if it takes 5 weeks longer to have the "check cashed", it will take 5 weeks longer to be approved.  When Silencershop sends your form in, they still do so with physical paper.  It's all the same, except that Silencershop takes your money 5 weeks (in my three instances) before they turn that money over to the ATF.  That's what we call a short-term interest-free loan.  $200 x each person who uses their kiosk is a lot of money, and Silencershop is incentivized to hold that money for longer and not shorter periods of time.  When they need an extra $100,000 to fund operations for week, they can just hold back one box of applications.

Yeah, they are holding your $200 for a month so they can bank that 20 cents.  You're a genius man.

People who extend credit to companies like Silencershop (B2B or actual banks) will read your comment and laugh.  As someone who works for a company that extends credit to companies on a short-term basis, I have seen companies do extremely convoluted (and in some ways, impressive) things to maintain "float."  I'm not going to be mean to you like you were to me, but I would encourage you to read up on the subject so you can be better informed next time. . . or talk to the Treasurer/controller of a large company that extends credit to smaller companies. . . they'll set you straight.  Many times, it has less to do with the interest as it does the access to funds.  Why go through the lenders (where you have to pledge assets, and maybe even a personal guarantee), if you can run your business my just using the funds they're supposed to be sending to the government?  Another example is gift cards.  Companies freaking love gift cards.  Starbucks loves their "gold card" program . . . people are giving them free money.  The difference between Starbucks and Silencershop, of course, is that you can demand your "goods" from Starbucks at any time you please.  But Silencershop can control when they send in your applications.  They've already demonstrated a willingness to lie about it, so from my seat, it stinks to high heaven.

But, let's address your actual argument (though it's not the right argument):

Very creditworthy companies are borrowing at LIBOR plus 200 bps.  12-month LIBOR this week is 2.78%.  Holding back 1 box of 500 applications for one month would be worth $48,000 over a 10-year period (compounding annually).  If it's $500,000 (or 5 boxes of applications), it's worth $300,000 ($297,542.70, to be exact).  Who's the genius now?

As someone who is a strategy consultant for corporations who pay $25k a week for me to advise them, here is my take:

Nobody is going to trade 20 cents in interest when that value can be captured with an expedite fee that is worth 100X that much or more, not to mention the damage to your brand or customer satisfaction, or the cost to field customer inquiries from nervous nellies such as yourself.

Occam's razor, these things tend to result from having to follow internal and external processes that take time.

I'm sure you are right though, given your experience working at payday loans.

I'll send you an email.

Yeah but why stop at 10 years, at 100 years it would be $480,000, if 5 boxes thats $2.4 million.

I would hate to see how much Botach is making in intrest off of orders yet to ship...

Here something that will really blow your mind...  They charge $25 for their service fee to use their kiosk and file your app’s.  For 500 applications that $1,500,000 over a 10 year period (compounding annually).  It it’s 5 boxes of applications that $7,500,000.  They are Genius...  Those greedy bastards need to share the wealth.  Hey any body know of a way to earn more then 20-40% ROI I have got $7.5 million burning a hole in my pocket.

What you are suggesting is actually good business, except accusing them of purposely withhold the apps to make more money.  If it takes them 1-5 weeks to process the app so be it.  You do know you can submit payment at the end right.  Just figure out which day they are going to mail all the applications and submit payment for the tax stamp a couple days before that date and screw them out of that $0.80 (your figure).

I don't disagree. . . it's definitely good business until it isn't.  In other words . . . until people realize that there may be a game afoot, and say, "Whoa. . . I can appreciate your services, but I'll be damned if I'm going to loan you money.  You can charge me when you actually mail the application into the ATF. . . and not 5 weeks before" (like they've been doing).  And if they don't respond to market pressure, hopefully someone else will seize the opportunity and start a competing business that doesn't engage in such practices.

And, for the record, I didn't imply intent.  The facts speak for themselves.  If they are taking in money 5 weeks before they have to pay it out, they're making money on it.  But you can't have it both ways . . . calling it good business but then saying it's not being done intentionally.  Has to be one or the other, right?

How about the ATF sitting on your $200 for 9 months before delivering the stamp? SS isn't the enemy here. They try to make a shitty process LESS shitty. Fortunately you don't have to use SS.

Great times we live in.

We get it.  You think they're crooks and see intent to defraud people in what I figure is probably time to review documents, print them, and process them.   Calling people crooks when they're not can cause a lot of problems though.

If we can all agree on something, it's this!  Of course, we're actually paying less than what it costs for them to process these things (that's not just internet rumor, either).  But yes, we shouldn't have to pay to begin with at least, and at most, we shouldn't have to wait longer than a reasonable period of time (two weeks) to be "blessed by the sovereign".

Who said crooks?  In my mind, a "crook" is someone who breaks the law.  To my knowledge, Silencershop doesn't break the law, and I've never alleged such a thing.  Are they less than transparent?  Yes.  Did they lie to me?  Yes.  But I've never called the crooks.  There very well may be a statute out there that requires them not to hold onto funds without disclosure, or putting them into an interest-bearing account (like they do for law firms), but I haven't researched it enough to know one way or the other.  That doesn't mean it isn't shady.

Edit to add:  W/re to the review, print, and process comment:  No, Silencershop themselves said that they're "aggregating" the forms to fill up their boxes in this time period.  So, you could be form #1 into the box, and form #500 out of the box.  Meanwhile Silencershop holds the $$$$.

It's the same principle if you look at it on shipping the suppressors.  I've seen them say they ship them together to a dealer as much as possible to keep the cost down.   At what point is it shady to fill a box with forms and ship the box?   Do you have to ship them multiple times a day?  Every day?  Week?  Month?   I've seen them say they send batches.   It may take some time to get a batch together.

It's shady to 1) Charge the customer 5 weeks ahead of time; 2) Lie about why it's taking so long.  They shouldn't charge customers until the box is in the mail and/or they should advise the customer about the time frames (and, going back to #2, they shouldn't lie when the customer calls in good faith to figure out what he can expect).  That's how LaRue does it (and LaRue has a lot more at risk, having specifically built an item for that customer).

W/re shipping - I've never bought a silencer from Silencershop, so I won't comment.

Just because your experience was a 5 week delay between payment and check cashed being by the ATF, does not mean that's the norm. I have placed 6 orders using the SilencerShop app, and all of them were either Form 1's or Form 4 transfers- I didn't buy any silencers directly from SilencerShop. Here is my experience:

Form 4- purchased: 05/16/17, check cashed: 05/26/17
Form 1- purchased: 09/11/17, check cashed: 09/22/17
Form 1- purchased: 11/10/17, check cashed: 12/08/17
Form 4- purchased: 11/10/17, check cashed: 12/11/17
Form 4- purchased: 04/13/18, check cashed: 05/08/18
Form 4- purchased: 06/29/18, check cashed: 07/18/18

Mine is a larger sample size than yours and spread out over a year. None took 5 weeks. The closest was a month, but that was not the norm, as you can see. I don't get your little crusade against SilencerShop. I've done several of my own fingerprints and photos before the kiosks were available, and prefer the simplicity of using them. I don't mind paying the extra fee. If you dislike it so much, then don't use it. You're starting to sound more like a competitor trying to cost them business at this point.

Are you trying to make my point for me?  Anything Form 4 you've submitted in the last year has been 31, 25, and 19 days, respectively.  That's an average of 25 days.  That's a full 3 WEEKS longer than it takes to just do it yourself.  And, within the last year, I've had 4 with Silencershop, so my sample size in the last 12 months is actually greater than yours.  But, if you want to average mine plus yours (mine were 39 days, if you recall), you end up with a weighted average of 33 DAYS.  Let's call it a month.

Please . . . I love when people throw the "competitor" thing around. . . It's what they do when they're out of arguments.  I'm not even aware that there IS a competitor to Silencershop kiosks.  There certainly isn't at my FFL.  It's just such a lame argument, because I could turn around and say (without any basis whatsoever), that YOU MUST WORK FOR SILENCERSHOP!!!  LOOK, YOU'RE DEFENDING THEM!  SHILL!!!!  It's just so laughable, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A COMPETITOR.  C'mon, man.

It's an odd discussion, since his point is that Shop takes longer and people are arguing with him, but also saying they take longer but it's convenient. Like when they added Form1's and the discussion was getting heated, even though everyone agreed "it costs more, but it's convenient".

So yeah, he's a stubborn guy who keeps responding to the topic, but you're agreeing with his timeline for the most part, so not sure there's really much of a discussion to be had.

Years ago, when I worked at a dealer and we ordered direct from HK (before they went distributor), it always pissed off the boss that they'd ship guns as they got to them, sometimes shipping 1-5 guns over the course of a week, in 2-3 boxes because they were different variants or whatever. They charged US for shipping, so didn't care.

Meanwhile, they'd hold back the invoices for a few days so they could cram them all into one envelope to save on the postage stamp.

My only point was that none of mine took 5 weeks and most were well under that. I agree that it takes longer. Still don't see his obsession with the topic and acting like he's uncovered the greatest conspiracy ever. SilencerShop created a service that benefits those who choose to utilize it by simplifying the process They are a business, so obviously they want to make extra money. Nobody is forced into using it. If their dealer won't accept any other transfers then find a new dealer. Anyway, I think this topic has been beat to death by now. I don't care what anyone does with their money. I'm used to waiting for NFA items to clear and don't mind waiting the extra time.

Long time lurker, thought I would add some data points from my experiences with SilencerShop:

1. Form 4- purchased: 03/11/18, check cashed: 04/12/18
2. Form 4- purchased: 03/11/18, check cashed: 04/12/18
3. Form 4- purchased: 03/11/18, check cashed: 04/12/18
4. Form 4- purchased: 03/22/18, check cashed: 04/23/18
5. Form 4- purchased: 03/29/18, check cashed: 05/04/18
6. Form 4- purchased: 03/29/18, check cashed: 05/04/18
7. Form 4- purchased: 04/04/18, check cashed: 05/07/18
8. Form 4- purchased: 05/09/18, check cashed: 05/28/18
9. Form 4- purchased: 06/10/18, check cashed: 06/30/18

I wouldn’t complain if they sped up but for the convenience I’ll be sending my next 5 SiCos through them also.

Dang, that's a lot more impressive than I was at my best (right before 41p/f).  Lots of good data.  Looks like a month for just about everything until May when it picked up (also when I was getting my 5 weeks delay).

You're going to be like a kid a Christmas...probably right around Christmas.

Right now

5 weeks.

185 days

Paying a third party to do something you could do yourself takes longer and costs more.  In other news, water is wet.



Please cease flagellating the expired equine!

I'll throw my hat in the ring for another data point. This is my first NFA purchase.

SS Form 4 single shot trust

6/22 - purchased late on a friday
6/26 - signed edocs
6/27 - dealer signed edocs + F3 submitted
7/3   - F3 approved
7-5    - F4 mailed
7/19 - check cashed

One of the things that gets me on this is there is a delay from purchase for the F3 to go through.   When do you start figuring the time?  From the day you order from Silencer Shop?  From the day it gets to the dealer that's transferring it to you?   You've got 2 weeks from mailed to check cashed.  2 weeks.   That's nowhere near a month on something that takes 9+ months.

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Just to be clear, though, I didn't order anything from Silencershop.  My experience (and delays) have been in relation to their Kiosk services.  So, for me, I started counting the time from when I paid Silencershop (which was the last step in the process for me, though it is possible to pay before you have signed all of the documents).  So, for me (all Form 4's),  I started the clock when I paid Silencershop and had every document signed for them.  39 days after that, the ATF cashed the check.

My point was about people who buy from Silencer Shop vs using them for the transfer.

Looking at my first 3 and remember there is a Form 3 involved to the dealer.  What's a normal F3 time right now? 3 weeks to a month?   That's about what ordered to cashed has been.  
purchased 3/5   cashed 3/26  
purchased 3/6   cashed 4/1
purchased 3/28 cashed 5/4

Is it possible their system has a delay on sending to account for the F3 time?  That might account for increased time if you are just doing the form through them and not purchasing it from them.